Reptile Pricing, selling, and the market

Love How The Market For Certain Things Can Change. Keeps Life Exciting. A Year Ago You Rarely Herd Of Sharp Albs Now They Are On The Front Page. I Love It. Now All We Need To Be Able To Do Is Predict The Next Page Turn And Have A Big Stock Of That Ready To Sell. Lol. I Talked To Mike At The Show Last Weekend And You Have To Give The Guy Props. He Had One Of The Nicest Boa Booths There. And All Of His Boas From The Most Expensive Down To Some Nice Normals Looked Fantastic.
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It's a good thing I took that risk awhile back and bought a trio of sharps hets huh? Who would of thunkit? I just thought they were way better looking than kahl albinos.

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Brian Sharp himself sold off his Albinos during that period when PK's line exploded.

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There is a little confusion with this. He sold off his Sharp Albino Colombians and now works solely with Suriname Sharp albinos. They sell for about 4000-6000 each.

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Originally Posted by jim020cricket

It's a good thing I took that risk awhile back and bought a trio of sharps hets huh? Who would of thunkit? I just thought they were way better looking than kahl albinos.


There is a little confusion with this. He sold off his Sharp Albino Colombians and now works solely with Suriname Sharp albinos. They sell for about 4000-6000 each.

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I wish I would've seen this one coming!

Without a doubt Suriname Sharp Albinos are between $4000-$6000 and there aren't many around. Again, there's just not much demand for them with the masses and I personally don't know of anyone dropping that $$$ for them. Some even looked down on them. That all may change now!

I've only seen a handful of Sharp Albinos for sale from time to time and they've usually been for $1800-$2500 if I'm not mistaken.

Just To See If There Were Any Out There For Sale I Just Looked At Kingsnake And I Didnt See One. I Saw A Ton Of Kahl For Sale Though. I Think Now That They Are On The Climb I Bet People Are Going To Start Holding On To Them And Try To Breed As Many As Possiable.

Salmonboa.com Has Some Sharp Sunglows For Sale But They Are All In The 9000-10000 Range.

Matt, you should buy one.

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Some even looked down on them. That all may change now!

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That's been changing. This year they have gone crazy. Another thing we can owe Mike for.

Like I said before, no one really works with Sharp line Albinos. Only a handful of people come to mind that own/breed Sharp line Albinos and they've never been in high demand. Every year for the past decade you'll see hundreds of PK Albinos come to market per dozen or so Sharp Albinos.

The mentality was....why pay $2500 for a Sharp line Albino when you could've paid $1000 for a PK? Why spend the $$$ on Sharp Albinos that no one was really interested in or moving Vs PK Albinos that were everywhere? This is why this year the market was overflowing with Albinos for $500 and you did not see one add on KS for a Sharp Albino or Het Sharp Albino.

The only reason you may see a shift, is the presence of the T+ associated with Sharp Albinos. If this is proven, which it looks like it will be..Sharp Albinos will grow in popularity and each year more and more and more will come to market. Little by little, year after year, you'll see more and more classifieds on KS with Sharp Albinos until they equal PK and eventual overcome them.

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Originally Posted by jim020cricket

That's been changing. This year they have gone crazy. Another thing we can owe Mike for.

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I agree!
I would not doubt phones have been ringing off the hook with people trying to buy Sharp Albinos now! You may even see a spike in price this year and the next because of Mike!

Everyone that owns a Sharp Albino should take their hat off to Mike.. :colbert2:

I hope so. All the "Jimmys" (boy I hate that nickname) of the Boa World have ruined the Kahl strain Albino market. Everybody thinks that if they sell them for cheaper than the next guy, they make the money. The problem is that; if they held out a little longer, they would still make the money (and probably more) over a longer period of time. But, nooooo...they gotta sell to sell, not to make money AND keep the market stable. They just want quick cash, I'd like to slap everyone of them silly. :fork: Whenever I see a albino go for less than 900 I cringe. Whenever I see a hypo go for less than 500 I spit. These people ruined the market for everyone over their own greed and it makes me sick to my stomach. If Sharp is the new line to have, I'm all over it...i just hope others don't ruin it too.

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Originally Posted by jim020cricket

Matt, you should buy one.

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HELL WHY BUY JUST ONE. I SOULD BUY ALL OF THEM. HAHAHA. MABY NEXT YEAR I WILL PUT MY FEALERS INTO THE SHARP WORLD.

If you can...do it! It's the investment, always about the investment...it's always a gamble.

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Originally Posted by jim020cricket

I hope so. All the "Jimmys" (boy I hate that nickname) of the Boa World have ruined the Kahl strain Albino market. Everybody thinks that if they sell them for cheaper than the next guy, they make the money. The problem is that; if they held out a little longer, they would still make the money (and probably more) over a longer period of time. But, nooooo...they gotta sell to sell, not to make money AND keep the market stable. They just want quick cash, I'd like to slap everyone of them silly. :fork: Whenever I see a albino go for less than 900 I cringe. Whenever I see a hypo go for less than 500 I spit. These people ruined the market for everyone over their own greed and it makes me sick to my stomach. If Sharp is the new line to have, I'm all over it...i just hope others don't ruin it too.

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PK Albinos had a heck of a run if you ask me, they could not have stayed at $1000+ for ever. Just too many breeders pumping them out each year and each year more and more are coming to market.

Everything sooner or later succumbs to supply & demand, the supply of PK Albinos this year alone drove prices down from $1000 to $750, this was natural. Then the Jimmy's took it as low as $500, unnatural! You have single breeders out there dumping 20-100+ PK Albinos each year on the market. If you ask me, with that level of supply being dumped on the market each year and the number of breeders growing every year. The demand for Albino Boas has been incredible to last all these years and still be one of the hottest selling boas on the market.

What do you expect will happen if the Sharp Albinos take off? Prices will go up slightly for the next 2-3yrs, then those that bought now will start breeding adding to the supply. Those that held back more breeders will increase their volume, also adding more to the supply chain. Competition and supply will drive prices down as it balances with the demand. Then add another generation of breeders after that, prices go down again and it keeps going and going till the next big thing.

Are Sharp Albinos a good investment now, absolutely! But, don't lock yourselves to one morph. As I told Matt, a good quality grade "A" Salmon will always sell and sell well! Motleys, Supers, T+ Albinos, Scoria Boas, MoonGlows and on are all relatively new morphs. Some may stay and become HUGE, others may fizzle out. The key ingredient to any project is quality, get the best quality you can afford! The best Hypo, Salmon, Albino, Pastel and produce better quality!

like you said it is a merical that they stayd over 1000 for as long as they did. sad to say that if sharps take off the same thing will hapen to them.

yup as for me i will stick with my bread and butter morphs and dable in the high end stuff as it comes. look at salmonboa.com they make easily over 1mil a year and they just breed a ton of KK-C salmons. and a small few albs/ bloods/ sabagoda(sp)

Sharps will role good for awhile...true. I just don't see how any albino morph Boa should be priced at 500, no matter what the reasons are. If it happened to them, it can and will happen to any morph. I can see the prices dropping like that on co-dom morphs, but not recessive ones. Salmons are even dropping (unless you are salmonboa.com). That is inevitable with co-dom traits (look at the spider BP). It happens because the turnover rate is so fast. Kahl's had a good run, but what the average Joe doesn't know about those "cheap" albinos is that there is a eye defect problem with them from bad breeders inbreeding too much. That is why I think the Kahl will raise back up once this is broadcasted more. If I can find the link, I'll post it. Cheaper isn't ever better.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...498#post429498

Albino Boas were "it" for the longest time and still are. There are just a lot more being produced today than there were 8-10 years ago. This is what happens when you sell babies to other breeders, you're in essence supplying your competition for the future.

Guys like Rich have been at this for a long time. Rich will be working on that Salmon project no matter what else falls in his lap. He knows his business and keeps it very close to him! How many 06 Salmons does he have on his site this year? I just checked, 20-25 Salmons and a few DH Sunglows that he recently put up, and we're going into October! Do you really think SalmonBoas only produced 20-25 Salmons this year?!?!

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Originally Posted by ssscales

Albino Boas were "it" for the longest time and still are. There are just a lot more being produced today than there were 8-10 years ago. This is what happens when you sell babies to other breeders, you're in essence supplying your competition for the future.

Guys like Rich have been at this for a long time. Rich will be working on that Salmon project no matter what else falls in his lap. He knows his business and keeps it very close to him! How many 06 Salmons does he have on his site this year? I just checked, 20-25 Salmons and a few DH Sunglows that he recently put up, and we're going into October! Do you really think SalmonBoas only produced 20-25 Salmons this year?!?!

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he proabbly has 20-25 adult females produceing each year. so who knows exactly how many he produces. if you watch his dvd that he put out with the backers you see that he has walls that are lined with hundreds of tubs.

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Originally Posted by jim020cricket

Sharps will role good for awhile...true. I just don't see how any albino morph Boa should be priced at 500, no matter what the reasons are. If it happened to them, it can and will happen to any morph. I can see the prices dropping like that on co-dom morphs, but not recessive ones. Salmons are even dropping (unless you are salmonboa.com). That is inevitable with co-dom traits (look at the spider BP). It happens because the turnover rate is so fast. Kahl's had a good run, but what the average Joe doesn't know about those "cheap" albinos is that there is a eye defect problem with them from bad breeders inbreeding too much. That is why I think the Kahl will raise back up once this is broadcasted more. If I can find the link, I'll post it. Cheaper isn't ever better.

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Sure, you're going to have some garbage in the mix with any morph. I've seen those $500 one eyed Albinos for years, even when Albinos were at $1500 a pop. Lower prices can and will happen to all morphs eventually, it should be expected. We will see $1000 Motleys and $1000 Sunglows and $1000 Snow boas at some point, this I can guarantee you. Whether it takes 3 or 5 or 10yrs, it will happen.

What is going on with some of these BP's does not seem natural! Sure, supply & demand plays a role, but you have morphs dropping from $25,000 to $2500 in 1yr, that's not right. No one can tell me that so many of these morphs were produced this year that prices had to come down from $25,000 to $2,500 in order to sell.

PK Albinos will average $500 for the next 1-3yrs and the one eyed or no eyed Albinos will come down to $100, if they are not culled at birth. KK grade Salmons will/should fetch $750-$1000+ if sold properly and sellers need to have patience. Problem is, most people don't want to market themselves or wait. Most of these guys on KS just want to sell, sell, sell and prefer to have a 24hr sale or weekend sale or 4th of July sale where they going from $2000-$1700-$1500-$1200-$1000 week after week until the snake is sold. Some of them aren't even breeders, just middle men who buy from breeders cheap and flip the snakes for a profit!

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Originally Posted by BALLISTIC BOAS

he proabbly has 20-25 adult females produceing each year. so who knows exactly how many he produces. if you watch his dvd that he put out with the backers you see that he has walls that are lined with hundreds of tubs.

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He's the definitely the man of the salmon world. Hands down. Nice guy too.

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Problem is, most people don't want to market themselves or wait. Most of these guys on KS just want to sell, sell, sell and prefer to have a 24hr sale or weekend sale or 4th of July sale where they going from $2000-$1700-$1500-$1200-$1000 week after week until the snake is sold. Some of them aren't even breeders, just middle men who buy from breeders cheap and flip the snakes for a profit!

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This is exactly what I'm talking about. This IS what is going to happen if we let it. Yeah, sure the Kahl's had a good run, but in the last year alone they have dropped so bad in price that they will soon be like the albino burmese. BS. They deserve better than to be sold for 200 each. The Sharp line WILL skyrocket, the whole market will blow up...soon. If they aren't carefully watched and decently marketed...they will end up like the Kahl's, only sooner. That is the shame of it all.

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Originally Posted by BALLISTIC BOAS

he probably has 20-25 adult females producing each year. so who knows exactly how many he produces. if you watch his dvd that he put out with the backers you see that he has walls that are lined with hundreds of tubs.

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I would estimate he does have 20-25 adult females. Even if 1/2 of them dropped this year, that's about 300-400 babies, 150/200 Salmons. He'll place some up for sale this year, some up for sale next year as yearlings, and then a few more here and there, and do it all over again next year.

You don't see guys like Rich having a weekend sale for 25% off this week and another 25% off next week! But, you and I both know they will negotiate prices, but it's done privately!

Mike (Basically Boas) will cut prices, but he'll adjust prices after 3-6-12 months of a snake not selling, not a weekend.

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Originally Posted by jim020cricket

This is exactly what I'm talking about. This IS what is going to happen if we let it. Yeah, sure the Kahl's had a good run, but in the last year alone they have dropped so bad in price that they will soon be like the albino burmese. BS. They deserve better than to be sold for 200 each. The Sharp line WILL skyrocket, the whole market will blow up...soon. If they aren't carefully watched and decently marketed...they will end up like the Kahl's, only sooner. That is the shame of it all.

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It is a shame, like I said before, some of these morphs deserve more and are expected to do more! Look at the MoonGlow, when 1st produced..the word priceless was thrown around a lot! Have you looked on KS? MoonGlow...$15,000 down to $12,500 and soon if not sold, $10,000.

Look at the Scoria Boa, amazing morph IMO! Only one Scoria sold and sold for $20,000 in a matter of minutes, most breeders said that was cheap, he could've gotten $25k-$30k!! Where is it today, any post, any thread any information on them? I hope they pop up again!

There is really no way to control supply & demand and price once it hits the public. You can delay it by keeping it close to people you trust will keep the integrity for another 2-3yrs and/or only sell Hets or females and prolong it's production for a few years that way, but sooner or latter the masses will get them and start pumping them out like M&M's.

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Originally Posted by ssscales

It is a shame

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I agree ... the real shame is that for every jobber that is quick to devalue these amazing animals by dropping prices to rediculously low levels there is a line of people with cash in hand waiting to support them.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I agree ... the real shame is that for every jobber that is quick to devalue these amazing animals by dropping prices to rediculously low levels there is a line of people with cash in hand waiting to support them.

-adam

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It's not just a few buyers that need to support these animals and give them proper value, it's the breeders and sellers themselves. This would not be a problem if everyone selling these snakes posted $1000 firm and kept it at that regardless, even if it was just publicly. In a free market environment, it's impossible to control.

Asking Timmy or Billy to pay $5000 for a snake he could buy down the street for $1000 is stretching it a bit. The problem lies with the sellers not the buyers, you can't blame anyone for wanting to save money or shopping around, we do it every day of our lives when buying a home, car, groceries, electronics, clothes, etc, etc, etc. The problem lies with the sellers with no regard to the market as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I agree ... the real shame is that for every jobber that is quick to devalue these amazing animals by dropping prices to rediculously low levels there is a line of people with cash in hand waiting to support them.

-adam

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Said like a champ. Very true.

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Originally Posted by ssscales

It's not just a few buyers that need to support these animals and give them proper value, it's the breeders and sellers themselves. This would not be a problem if everyone selling these snakes posted $1000 firm and kept it at that regardless, even if it was just publicly. In a free market environment, it's impossible to control.

Asking Timmy or Billy to pay $5000 for a snake he could buy down the street for $1000 is stretching it a bit. The problem lies with the sellers not the buyers, you can't blame anyone for wanting to save money or shopping around, we do it every day of our lives when buying a home, car, groceries, electronics, clothes, etc, etc, etc. The problem lies with the sellers with no regard to the market as a whole.

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I think what he meant was that without this overflow of people wanting the best for next to nothing, these "breeders" would learn to control the market better. What I read out of it, is it goes both ways. No one group is solely responsible for the drop in prices. I used to believe that the people controlled the market, but gas prices have proved me wrong. The suppliers control the market, which is what you said Gerry. They aren't only to blame though. A small amount of blame goes to those who don't know any better and don't really research and understand that those with the cheaper prices (in this subject) doesn't always mean it's better. I would pay 900 for an albino from Mike, even if Joe Shmoe has one for 600. I buy for peace of mind, not for the cheaper snake.

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Originally Posted by ssscales

The problem lies with the sellers with no regard to the market as a whole.

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I agree 100%.

But, I also feel that would be "breeders" aquiring thier stock from those "sellers" have a responsiblity to the market as well ... Many times it's the same people that are online crying about what a shame it is to see prices at certain levels that are also meeting outcast dealers in the parking lots of convenience stores buying animals for cash at 1/2 their market value.

I could not care less about Jimmy, Timmy, Lucy, or Sue ... but if someone is going to dump on the market, they should be honest about it and say "I don't give a rats ace about the market, I'm going to get my deals." ... there are too many phonies in this business.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I agree 100%.

But, I also feel that would be "breeders" aquiring thier stock from those "sellers" have a responsiblity to the market as well ... Many times it's the same people that are online crying about what a shame it is to see prices at certain levels that are also meeting outcast dealers in the parking lots of convenience stores buying animals for cash at 1/2 their market value.

I could not care less about Jimmy, Timmy, Lucy, or Sue ... but if someone is going to dump on the market, they should be honest about it and say "I don't give a rats ace about the market, I'm going to get my deals." ... there are too many phonies in this business.

-adam

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Absolutely, but..how do you control what anyone does in a free market? That's the problem, sellers aren't held accountable for absolutely anything to do with price adjustments!

It's not the buyers fault because they bought for less, you can't blame the public for paying less when the option is given to them. Sure you get what you pay for and in most cases, that's a good assumption! There is a lot of crap being put out there! But, this is not just 2-3 sellers selling crap in a parking lot! If it was and everyone else held their prices, worse case those 2-3 would've sold out and that would've been it.

Say 8Ball Pythons that sold it's Spiders this year for $1500/$2500 Vs $4000/$5000 last year? Are they cheaper Spiders, lower quality Spiders, defective Spiders? Or are they the same great quality Spiders that just cost less because that's the adjusted price based on todays market and what Adam feels he can get for his Spiders based on that market? A market that has been adjusted by other sellers who feel they will reduce prices until they move those snakes.

Problem is, every time they drop $200, someone else drops $250 and so on! Who controls that market adjusted price that states a Spider BP or Albino Boa will sell for this much this year?

How can you control this?

I'm not talking about controlling anything ... and I'm not talking about the public at large ... I'm talking about "breeders" or would be "breeders" that go online and say it's a shame to see prices drop and behind the scenes they are the first ones to pounce on a "deal" from a low baller. Then the following year or two when that "breeder" starts producing, they'll be telling people what a great investment the morphs that they are producing are in order to sell animals ... what a crock.

It has NOTHING to do with "control" and everything to do with honesty, trust, and believing in the market that you are making money from or planning to make money from ... some people do their best to support their customers, maximize their customers investments, and actually believe in what they are doing .... others crap all over their own customers and/or potential customers, sometimes even before they sell a single animal.

But all this is nothing new, it's been that way forever and it will always be that way. :rockon:

-adam

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Originally Posted by ssscales

How can you control this?

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YOU DON’T. THE BEST YOU CAN DO IS LOOK AT THE MARCKET AND PRICE YOUR SNAKES AT WHAT YOU THINK THEY ARE WORTH. JUST BECAUSE ALBS WILL BE GOING FOR 500-600 THIS YEAR DOSNT MEAN YOU HAVE TO PRICE YOURS AT THAT PRICE. BUT YOU NEED TO BE READY NOT TO SELL OUT IN THE FIRST MONTH. IN MY OPINION TO FIGURE OUT WHAT PRICES ARE YOU NEED TO LOOK AROUND AND COMPARE WHAT YOU HAVE AND WHAT OTHERS HAVE. COMPARE QUALITY AND PRICE. IF YOURS AND THERES ARE ALMOST IDENTICAL AND YOU ARE CHARGING 2 TIMES AS MUCH YOU MAY NEED TO REVALUATE SOME THINGS.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I'm not talking about controlling anything ... and I'm not talking about the public at large ... I'm talking about "breeders" or would be "breeders" that go online and say it's a shame to see prices drop and behind the scenes they are the first ones to pounce on a "deal" from a low baller. Then the following year or two when that "breeder" starts producing, they'll be telling people what a great investment the morphs that they are producing are in order to sell animals ... what a crock.

It has NOTHING to do with "control" and everything to do with honesty, trust, and believing in the market that you are making money from or planning to make money from ... some people do their best to support their customers, maximize their customers investments, and actually believe in what they are doing .... others crap all over their own customers and/or potential customers, sometimes even before they sell a single animal.

But all this is nothing new, it's been that way forever and it will always be that way. :rockon:

-adam

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I agree 100% on this! There are those breeders that support their customers knowing that they are buying investment animals and have plans to breed them and then there are the Morph Kings and Kingsnake price droppers of the world. Why would I buy from them when I know they won't be there after the sale, won't do anything to keep the market stabilized so my investment doesn't drop like a stone and in general, don't care about anything except lining their own pockets? Your choice who you want to buy from, but if you contribute to the mess, you lose your right to complain about it in the future. Just my 2 cents... :2cent:

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Originally Posted by BALLISTIC BOAS

YOU DON’T. THE BEST YOU CAN DO IS LOOK AT THE MARCKET AND PRICE YOUR SNAKES AT WHAT YOU THINK THEY ARE WORTH. JUST BECAUSE ALBS WILL BE GOING FOR 500-600 THIS YEAR DOSNT MEAN YOU HAVE TO PRICE YOURS AT THAT PRICE. BUT YOU NEED TO BE READY NOT TO SELL OUT IN THE FIRST MONTH. IN MY OPINION TO FIGURE OUT WHAT PRICES ARE YOU NEED TO LOOK AROUND AND COMPARE WHAT YOU HAVE AND WHAT OTHERS HAVE. COMPARE QUALITY AND PRICE. IF YOURS AND THERES ARE ALMOST IDENTICAL AND YOU ARE CHARGING 2 TIMES AS MUCH YOU MAY NEED TO REVALUATE SOME THINGS.

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Exactly, that's all anyone can do in a free market! Just price them according to the market range at the time and what you feel they are worth based on your litter/clutch/individual. Whether that be $5000 or $1000 or $500 or $100, whether it's below market value or above market value. Price them right and let them sit and enjoy them till they sell!

I am beginning to thing that You (Gerry) and You (Adam) are talking about two different subjects. Both points are valid, but you two are crossing paths along the way. Adam does have a good point about those who complain about the market falling, but will jump on the first deal that comes across to them...which is why I try to buy from only "big" breeders who have stable prices. Gerry has a good point on the "no" control of the market, but it won't stop me from complaining about it ;) I just hate to think of the money I've dropped into albinos and hets just to turn around and have to sell them for half the price I paid to make anything off them. Life is a gamble, roll the dice!

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Originally Posted by jim020cricket

I just hate to think of the money I've dropped into albinos and hets just to turn around and have to sell them for half the price I paid to make anything off them. Life is a gamble, roll the dice!

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I see your point, but what can you or me do about it? I also paid $1000 and even $2000+ for those same exact Albino boas and Dhets 1-4yrs ago that are now selling for $500-$750. What can I do about it? Who should I blame and point the finger at? My customers? Should I go around insulting/threatening/bashing them because they decide to buy a $500 Albino Vs paying me $1000 in todays market? Should they feel for me or you because we decided to spend $1000's on snakes?

I know I can't honestly go around on a bashing spree calling all sellers bad guys, simply because they sell for less in todays market. I disagree with the public 24hr sales and the week by week drop in price, but that is their business and they are not breaking any laws. I think it's wrong to do it publicly as a seller as it looks desperate, but can I honestly tell people don't buy from those people? What would be the excuse...they sell less than me? Does that sound right? Hell, I keep my ear to the ground waiting for those $2000 Pieds or $500 Albino BP's!! What is wrong with that?? That I'm contributing to lower prices or that I refuse to overpay in this unstable market caused by sellers?

Times have changed and we need to change like it or not. No matter how much I would want Albino boa prices to stay at $1000+, you need to come to reality that they are now $750 and some will be sold for more and some will be sold for less.

Example: I paid $4500 for a Motley just a few months back, now they are down to $3500...what can I do about it? I paid $4500, I'll pair my overpriced Motley to my overpriced Albino female next year and get 10-15 Motley Het Albinos that are now selling for $8k-$10K each. Will they be at $10k by the time I have babies...in my dreams! Will I be upset...not for one minute! Should I?

I would not dare question someone for buying a snake at 1/2 the price I paid. Good for them! In the world that's called a bargain if they got what they wanted and are happy with the transaction. Are they to blame for buying for less or are we to blame for paying too much? If you have option "A" $2000 or option "B" $1000 and you chose A, it's your decision.

With that said, I've got cash all set lined up for those 1.3 Pieds behind the parking lot! My only concern when I find that Perfect Pied deal that meets all my expectations, will not "Damn, I should've paid an extra $6000 to sleep better tonight, crap!". But, "I got a deal today, but how will I feel next month when I could've paid $500 less?".

I can't control what people sell their snakes for, but I can control what I pay and what I sell my snakes for. I'll price my Albinos or Dhets or Motleys for what I feel they are worth based on market and individual quality and that will be it. It may be high to some yet low to others, but as long as you are happy with what your getting and producing...great!

Just my $0.02.

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Originally Posted by ssscales

I know I can't honestly go around on a bashing spree calling all sellers bad guys, simply because they sell for less in todays market. I disagree with the public 24hr sales and the week by week drop in price, but that is their business and they are not breaking any laws.

I would not dare question someone for buying a snake at 1/2 the price I paid. Good for them! In the world that's called a bargain if they got what they wanted and are happy with the transaction. Are they to blame for buying for less or are we to blame for paying too much? If you have option "A" $2000 or option "B" $1000 and you chose A, it's your decision.

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wow i couldn't agree more with this. the whole point of these boards is to have a place to come and post pics of our new stuff and talk about it with friends that have good experiences. People ask for opinions on purchases and advise. It makes me sick to see people who jump on anyone when he/she bought some snake for less (not more) than they think it was worth. That's correct, jump on them because they paid less than they think it was worth. Usually it's the opposite where people speak out about possibly overpaying or getting ripped off for something to that nature. Not speaking out negatively about someone getting a deal and paying less.

Something doesn't add up..:2cent:

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Originally Posted by ssscales

I see your point, but what can you or me do about it? I also paid $1000 and even $2000+ for those same exact Albino boas and Dhets 1-4yrs ago that are now selling for $500-$750. What can I do about it? Who should I blame and point the finger at? My customers? Should I go around insulting/threatening/bashing them because they decide to buy a $500 Albino Vs paying me $1000 in todays market? Should they feel for me or you because we decided to spend $1000's on snakes?

I know I can't honestly go around on a bashing spree calling all sellers bad guys, simply because they sell for less in todays market. I disagree with the public 24hr sales and the week by week drop in price, but that is their business and they are not breaking any laws. I think it's wrong to do it publicly as a seller as it looks desperate, but can I honestly tell people don't buy from those people? What would be the excuse...they sell less than me? Does that sound right? Hell, I keep my ear to the ground waiting for those $2000 Pieds or $500 Albino BP's!! What is wrong with that?? That I'm contributing to lower prices or that I refuse to overpay in this unstable market caused by sellers?

Times have changed and we need to change like it or not. No matter how much I would want Albino boa prices to stay at $1000+, you need to come to reality that they are now $750 and some will be sold for more and some will be sold for less.

Example: I paid $4500 for a Motley just a few months back, now they are down to $3500...what can I do about it? I paid $4500, I'll pair my overpriced Motley to my overpriced Albino female next year and get 10-15 Motley Het Albinos that are now selling for $8k-$10K each. Will they be at $10k by the time I have babies...in my dreams! Will I be upset...not for one minute! Should I?

I would not dare question someone for buying a snake at 1/2 the price I paid. Good for them! In the world that's called a bargain if they got what they wanted and are happy with the transaction. Are they to blame for buying for less or are we to blame for paying too much? If you have option "A" $2000 or option "B" $1000 and you chose A, it's your decision.

With that said, I've got cash all set lined up for those 1.3 Pieds behind the parking lot! My only concern when I find that Perfect Pied deal that meets all my expectations, will not "Damn, I should've paid an extra $6000 to sleep better tonight, crap!". But, "I got a deal today, but how will I feel next month when I could've paid $500 less?".

I can't control what people sell their snakes for, but I can control what I pay and what I sell my snakes for. I'll price my Albinos or Dhets or Motleys for what I feel they are worth based on market and individual quality and that will be it. It may be high to some yet low to others, but as long as you are happy with what your getting and producing...great!

Just my $0.02.

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I had to go back and reread my posts to see if this was aimed at me. I don't think it was but you never know do you. I'm sorry you paid 4500 for a motley, but you could have met someone with cash in a alley and paid 2000. ;)

Oh yeah, aren't those paradigms nice! :petting:

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Originally Posted by jim020cricket

I had to go back and reread my posts to see if this was aimed at me. I don't think it was but you never know do you. I'm sorry you paid 4500 for a motley, but you could have met someone with cash in a alley and paid 2000. ;)

Oh yeah, aren't those paradigms nice! :petting:

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LOL...it wasn't aimed at anyone, but I wish I would've paid $2000 for my Motley, but it's ok, I love Boas. At the time $4500 was it for Motley's and this was a great deal, IMO. That's the whole point and the only point, as long as you're happy with it in the end. You can't compare what we paid for Albinos 2yrs ago to what they are today.

Am I upset for paying $4500 when I could've bought one today for $3500, not at all! Would I be happier today if I bought my male for $2000 and had an extra $2500 to spend on more boas, absolutely! Will I be upset if they drop to $2000, I would love a female for some Supers! $2000 Motleys, here I come!:) $1500 Motleys, it would be nice to add an extra male/add some new blood..$1500 Motley, PayPal payment going your way....:D

My criteria is simple, I buy direct from breeders not jobbers, (Big breeder or Small breeder), as long as the quality is there, the animal is well represented, the customer service is there and the relationship and trust is there, it makes no difference to me the size of their facility or how much they made this year. If both these breeders meet that criteria, only ones income was $800k+ and has a 3000sqft facility Vs the hobbyist/part time breeder that only has 1-2-3+ clutches/litters of nice snakes that he or she wants to sell to buy more snakes. Why should I only buy from the first and disregard the latter? I have nothing against either in this case, but when one is asking $1000's more for what I feel are similar snakes, why should I be forced to pay the higher price tag? You do realize that this means I should not buy from guys and gals like you and Matt and 1000's of others (which I fall into as well) on these forums when you have snakes to sell? I agree 100% on paying for quality, I've seen plenty of garbage on both sides of the price range! I've seen crap at the high end and crap at the low end, I've seen great snakes at the high end and great snakes at the low end. Why should I ignore those with great snakes and service at the low end, simply because the are priced lower. Does that sound right?

Price is one piece of this market, the rest is a lot of fun and work! And I know your going to say "how would your customers feel if they paid $2000 for a morph and then saw the average price drop to $1000?". Unfortunately and honestly this is the market some of these morphs are in today and if my customers or anyone can not accept the possibility that this may occur down the road, than they should not spend more than they can really afford on a snake! I'm sorry, but this is the fact!

I like certain BP's, but if I had a choice would I pay $5000 today or $2000 next year? I would wait, no rush at all! Sharp Albino Boas, $2000 next year or $1000 in 2-3 years? I'll be taking 2 next year, hopefully Jim will have some for sale from those Hets and will give Matt and me a good deal or possibly trades...Oh but, wait...we're only supposed to buy from certain breeders. ;)

Jim, you can't control what breeders/sellers sell their snakes for, the market will change with or without you or me or any of us. Whether they are valued at a $1000 and some sell them at $2,000 or $500, it's up to you who you buy from, what you pay and what will you will sell your babies for.

On one hand it is sad to see prices drop like they have because I love these snakes and think some are worth more. But, on the other hand...Great, lower prices!! :D

And if you're lucky enough to have that friendship with that breeder that can hook you up at the closest show parking lot or invite you to their house for BBQ and give you a 1/2 price deal on that snake you love or even say "It's free!", good for you!

:sweeet: Isn't it great?

Your essays are making me need reading glasses ;)

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Originally Posted by jim020cricket

Adam does have a good point about those who complain about the market falling, but will jump on the first deal that comes across to them...which is why I try to buy from only "big" breeders who have stable prices.

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Right on man! :rockon:

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Originally Posted by jim020cricket

Your essays are making me need reading glasses ;)

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LOL...you should read all my emails and PM's...LOL.:)

Another Thing We Need To Think About Lower Prices Is If Prices Never Fell 99% Of Us Would Not Be Able To Afford These Awesome Creatures. I Dont Know About Jerry, Jim , Or Any One, But There Is No Way I Could Of Afforded A $25000. Albino When They First Hit The Marcket 10 Years Ago. Thank God For Breeder Who Had The Funds To Buy Them And Produce Them And Sell Them On A Mass Scale. Wich As We Know Drives The Price Down.

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Originally Posted by BALLISTIC BOAS

The only peps that do not want lower prices and are fighting are greedy breeders who only care about their own bank accounts and disguies it as PROTECTING THERE INVESTMENT.

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That is total cr@p.

First of all, I'm not a "pep", I am a person ... grow up and speak English!

Second ... Anyone, and I mean anyone that is breeding and selling investment animals or that plans to breed and sell investment animals should (if they are even reasonably intelligent) not want lower prices. If you are taking money from a customer for an investment animal and you are not doing what you can to support the market for that customer than you are a crook.

Personally, I am at a point where I could not care less what the market does ... I have an AMAZING collection of big $$$ ball pythons ... I've made a TON of money on the ball python market ... if it all ended tomorrow I'd be up well over 5000% of my initial investment over 10 years ... to put it simply, I won ... there is NOTHING that I need to be "greedy" about.

So why do I care about prices you ask? .... For my customers ... Over the last ten years I've sold to hundreds, maybe even over one thousand people ... good people ... teachers, electricians, housewives, computer consultants .... not big breeders, but "little guys/gals" just getting started .... people with kids, homes, families ... they gave me money for snakes that I produced and almost every single one of them did so with the intention of breeding those snakes and making some type of return on their investment ... They could have invested their hard earned dollars in real estate, or the stock market, or CD's, but their passion for animals drove them to ball pythons, and they trusted me with their investment money .... I don't know about other people, but I personally want to see EVERY SINGLE ONE of my customers make money from the animals that I sold them and do so for as long as possible. I take it as a personal responsibility to do everything I can to make sure they do so ... and if that means standing on top of a table at the Daytona expo and yelling at the top of my lungs about support the market, then that is what I'll do.

What the idiots that are selling for less (or buying for less) don't care about is the little guys ... the people that are just getting started .... the price droppers want to make their money as fast as they can and get out ... I'd rather see my customers making good money for the next 25+ years! This thing doesn't have to be a race to the bottom ... it could be a marathon where EVERYONE gets a chance to build a nice collection of animals and put money in their pockets … but unfortunately, many idiots are too impatient, too immature, and not business savvy enough to know how to get it done right.

It makes me sick to see people that are calling themselves "breeders" celebrating low prices and getting excited about how fast we can see this thing hit the bottom .... What do you tell your customers? Give me your money and good luck with your investment - HA HA HA? Well in my opinion, you're a @ss.

This "peps" doesn't want lower prices and it has nothing to do with greed ... it has everything to do with doing the right thing by the people that trusted me with their hard earned investment dollars.

Cry all you want about what everyone else “out there” is doing … if you’re giving them your money, you’re guilty too.

-adam

Adam, I just want to breed and sell snakes. I didn't know I was responsible for buying my future customers an H2 in a year.

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Originally Posted by BALLISTIC BOAS

Adam, I just want to breed and sell snakes. I didn't know I was responsible for buying my future customers an H2 in a year.

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Its clear that you didn't read what Adam posted, don't get what he is saying or don't care enough about your customers to do the right thing. Any of the three are disturbing in their own right.

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Originally Posted by BALLISTIC BOAS

Adam, I just want to breed and sell snakes. I didn't know I was responsible for buying my future customers an H2 in a year.

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It would be personally just wonderful for me if I heard from all of your customers that paid you good money last year, or the year before that... and then I would also like to know how many return customers you have...

The level of customer service you're exemplifying with that statement is just astonishing to me.

You don't feel, in any way, that you're RESPONSIBLE for what your customers do with the snakes that you sell them? That's pretty sad, man. :colbert:

Wow...Adam,
Personally speaking, and I read your last post numerous times.

IMO, we will help everyone in anyway possible when it comes to their snakes husbandry, feeding, housing, breeding, supplies, accessories, other breeders, price, car pooling to a show, have lunch, etc, etc, etc. Regardless whether they buy from us or not.

But, we will not be held accountable for anyones investment, stocks, bonds, business or Ball Python prices. Those that invested in Ball Pythons or stocks or real estate did it well knowing the possible risks! I'm sure you've done well for yourself and hope your good fortune continues well into the future. Those that bought snakes with expectations of retiring next year as millionaires, good luck and I wish you all the success.

But, I am not going to be told who I should buy from, what I should pay or what I should sell for (high or low), simply because this is what it is based on certain expectations of a select group.

This is my final post on this subject.

As for returning customers and/or satisfied customers associated with lower prices. I have yet to read a single complaint about MKR from their customers on the bargains they got. Not even from the customers who bought from them last year or the year before or any year for that matter.

If you look at the thread about MKR on this very same forum with the poll about "would you do business with MKR after their reduction in price"...over 44% stated they would gladly do business with them. Every thread about them has as many supporters and actual satisfied customers Vs upset competitors, investors and others complaining about the dump.

Would I buy from MKR? As long as they continue to meet my needs with quality animals, service, and price....Yes! If they start delivering crap and/or slack on the service, NO!

If this makes me a negative in some of your eyes, so be it!

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Originally Posted by ssscales

As for returning customers and/or satisfied customers associated with lower prices. I have yet to read a single complaint about MKR from their customers on the bargains they got. Not even from the customers who bought from them last year or the year before or any year for that matter.

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Okay... let me use this example as a way to make my point...

I go to Joe Schmoe (name withheld to protect the idiotic) and buy a Megaball (morph type withheld to protect the insane) for $6000 this year. I know that many others are buying the same morph from Joe Schmoe for that same $6000 this year.... and many will reproduce it next year... So the demand will go down, and the price will also... Then, I reproduce the Megaball next year... and I get SO excited about selling it to recover my investment.... I made 2.2 of them, so I figure I can hold back 1.1 and sell the other pair for $6500 to recoup my investment, and make a couple bucks that first year. RDR's selling 'em for $5000/ea, NERD's selling 'em for $4500, 8Ballpythons is selling 'em for $4500, hell, even MKR's selling 'em for $4000.... but Joe Schmoe Reptiles, in their infinite wisdom, wants to CORNER the Megaball market, and so he offers 'em up for $2000. He makes a lot of new friends.... but all his old customers, it wouldn't seem, would be too happy with his pricing.

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Originally Posted by ssscales

But, I am not going to be told who I should buy from, what I should pay or what I should sell for (high or low)

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Who told you anything like that? .... Give me a break.

I guess having a sincere appreciation for the hard earned money that people are investing with me and my business and wanting to help them make as much money as possible for as long as possible is bad thing now?

Sorry, I'm just not a "take the money and run" kind of person ... I really do care ... If that makes ME a negative in YOUR eyes, then so be it.

-adam

[QUOTE=Adam_Wysocki]Who told you anything like that? .... Give me a break.
Yet, you have clearly stated below that anyone who does not buy at a set price is in the wrong, hurting the market, idiots and flat out crooks. Did I read this wrong?

I guess having a sincere appreciation for the hard earned money that people are investing with me and my business and wanting to help them make as much money as possible for as long as possible is bad thing now? Not at all, I think it is wonderful that you take such passion and congratulated you numerous times for this. But, I will not be cornered into paying higher prices or who I buy from. I understand you are protecting your investment and your customers, but ridiculing others who do not line up....

Sorry, I'm just not a "take the money and run" kind of person ... I really do care ... If that makes ME a negative in YOUR eyes, then so be it. Never said it did, on the other hand you clearly stated that anyone buying low and looking for a bargain is an idiot, wrong and even crooks...why? Because of the assumption they are going to take money and run? You're making a pretty big assumptions and making accusations that everyone is in this with the same incentives...all because they saved a buck?

This is it for me, you guys can take this a part as you wish and continue the fight.