A Baby Ball on the way! I can't wait!!!

:aww: Hi everyone, my name is Rachel and I'm from Texas. Just about everything I've read has said to not buy a captive hatched animal....but what about a captive hatched from a respected breeder? :confused: I will be getting a 4 month old little CH from the Snake Keeper. They seem to be reeeeally nice and extremely knowledgeable. What is anybody else's take on the subject?

Thanks people,

Rach

That seems more like captive bred if it is comming from The Snake Keeper. Captive hatched is when they take pregnant females from the wild, let them lay their eggs and then release the females. so technically it is still a wild animal and there is still a strain on wild populations. Captive bred means that the individual was bred from two captive individuals. Often times in today's day and age they too are captive bred. Hope this helps!


wildlifewarrior

When you say captive hatch do you mean the people bred two snakes and hatch the eggs? Because you did mention breeder... Well if someone breeds two snakes and gets eggs and babies its ok. But w/c they can have problems and its just not good to buy them because it promotes the petrade to ship more snakes out of their wildlife into captivity thus reducing populations in the wild.

Captive hatched ball pythons do fine after they become established feeders.and become good pets and breeders. :)

sapphire 7 , if there were no imported ball pythons, there would be NO ball python morphs.

I would think as long as it's eating regularly, you should be fine. Like ECLARK said.

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Originally Posted by Sapphire7

its just not good to buy them because it promotes the petrade to ship more snakes out of their wildlife into captivity thus reducing populations in the wild.

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Ball pythons are an internationally regulated species ... their wild populations are closely monitored and their export is controlled via permits and quotas ... Their wild populations are not in any danger.

-adam

Captive Hatched are from wild parents the mother is wild (i hear they collect them by setting fire to the area) the babies would otherwise be wild except they get shipped to the US or wherever. Captive bred is the parents are "pets" already and by buying these babies from prev established "pets" then the need for importing wild caught and captive hatched babies is decreased, therefore wild populations won't suffer.

Just because their numbers are "regulated" adam doesn't mean that it doesn't cause stress on the ecology of their home range, causing an increase in prey items, and or a decrease in higher predator numbers.

wildlifewarrior

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Originally Posted by wildlifewarrior

i hear they collect them by setting fire to the area

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That's compelte cr@p.

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Originally Posted by wildlifewarrior

Just because their numbers are "regulated" adam doesn't mean that it doesn't cause stress on the ecology of their home range, causing an increase in prey items, and or a decrease in higher predator numbers.

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Well, I can say with great certainty that in the case of ball pythons, you don't know what you're talking about. Due to ruralization, ball pythons have been and currently are exploding in population in West Africa and if they were not exported in the numbers that they are they would need to be hunted and killed.

Members of the "Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species" (or "CITES") as well as the governments of the West African nations that p. regius is native to survey and monitor ball pythons and the ecosystems in which they live to make sure there is a balance between the commercial farming and natural existance of ball pythons.

-adam

Well i would have to say that P. regius isn't on the top of CITES' lists for having monitoring programs, when they have 2/3 of all amphibians in the world in decline. I did look over the number of allowed exports for bp's in the various countries in Africa on CITES, and there are a much larger number being farm raised than collected from the wild, now do you know if that means farm raised like they do gators here in the US, where a certain number of hatchlings are returned to the wild to generate a percentage of clutch survivorship, or does farm raised mean that they have thousands of adults housed that they use for breeding? If you have any articles on this or on any of the CITES regulations i would love to read up on it. Everybody's gotta learn somewhere;)


wildlifewarrior

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Originally Posted by wildlifewarrior

Well i would have to say that P. regius isn't on the top of CITES' lists for having monitoring programs

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Are you stating this as a fact or are you guessing?

-adam

What i mean by that is that while it is monitored by CITES with setting quottas, there are many other species that CITES focus's more of it's import/export regulations on and controls more closely. Especially if they seem to be breeding and doing so well in rural areas. Much the same i would assume deer have become so abundant in North America.
wildlifewarrior

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Originally Posted by rjks325

:aww: Hi everyone, my name is Rachel and I'm from Texas. Just about everything I've read has said to not buy a captive hatched animal....but what about a captive hatched from a respected breeder? :confused: I will be getting a 4 month old little CH from the Snake Keeper. They seem to be reeeeally nice and extremely knowledgeable. What is anybody else's take on the subject?

Thanks people,

Rach

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I don't think I would be worried about ANYTHING that comes from Snake Keeper. Whether it is captive bred or captive hatched, I would think that it would be in fine health, and well started.

Steve

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Originally Posted by wildlifewarrior

What i mean by that is that while it is monitored by CITES with setting quottas, there are many other species that CITES focus's more of it's import/export regulations on and controls more closely. Especially if they seem to be breeding and doing so well in rural areas. Much the same i would assume deer have become so abundant in North America.
wildlifewarrior

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What is the point you are trying to make? Are you talking about other species or ball pythons, the topic of this discussion?

The FACT of the matter here is that wild populations of ball pythons are under no direct threat right now, and exportation of them is an integral part of managing that population. One article I read some time ago about this also mentioned that they are exported to a number of asian countries for their meat packing industries. Silly asians...

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Originally Posted by wildlifewarrior

What i mean by that is that while it is monitored by CITES with setting quottas, there are many other species that CITES focus's more of it's import/export regulations on and controls more closely. Especially if they seem to be breeding and doing so well in rural areas. Much the same i would assume deer have become so abundant in North America.
wildlifewarrior

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You should really get a better understanding of how CITES works before making statements like that. Each and every species is monitored the same.

-adam

Do you know what the definition of farming is in terms of these guys is? because the numbers i saw on CITES showed a much greater number of "farmed" or "ranched" bps being exported than wild caught. I was curious if this "farmed" is collecting females letting them lay then releasing them, or if it is having large numbers of adults for a massive breeding project?? Either way they are being exported from those countries, and for one country the number of "farmed" or "ranched" individuals was around 80,000. which i guess where the majority of my confusion her-in lies. Therefore if they are exporting individuals they would still be seen on paper as an export not necessarily wild caught. WHich is why i am not quite clear as to what "Farmed" means
I understand that they aren't an endangered species or even a threatened one they are far from being CITES listed in this way.

wildlifewarrior

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

You should really get a better understanding of how CITES works before making statements like that. Each and every species is monitored the same.

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CITES doesn't have the support or the money to focus the same amount of attention on ball pythons as on other species when there are thousands of other species, both herp and non herp than need more protection and a focus than bp's. It is common sense when talking about Concervation which at this point there is a need to focus more energy on those species that are in decline in the wild than those who apparently are abounding in massive numbers due to ruralization. CITES sets a quota and it is hoped that the people in the airport export are not currupt and willing to over look an overstocked load to a country such as Asia for the food industry. Since the US Customs is more stringent on checking shipments. There is no way to monitor each and every species the same. Now if you have any type of document about just how they do monitor bp's in relation to other species i would love to read up on it, more than likely it is only a sensus of the number being exported during the year. The CITES numbers between 2004 and 2005 show a decreas in wild caught exports, which with the quoata being decreased between the two years may signify a decrease in the wild populations.


wildlifewarrior

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Originally Posted by wildlifewarrior

CITES doesn't have the support or the money

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They don't? How do you know?

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Originally Posted by wildlifewarrior

CITES sets a quota and it is hoped that the people in the airport export are not currupt and willing to over look an overstocked load to a country such as Asia for the food industry.

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Have you ever gone through the process of importing or exporting a CITES regulated species or are you just speculating about how it works?

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Originally Posted by wildlifewarrior

Since the US Customs is more stringent on checking shipments.

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US Fish & Wildlife (not customs) is not nearly as stringent as many other countries ... But, regardless, the minimum standards for CITES are always met.

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Originally Posted by wildlifewarrior

Now if you have any type of document

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I don't need any type of document ... this is what I do ... I export ball pythons and deal with CITES for a living, I've imported my fair share as well, I've read and stay current on all of the CITES surveys and publications related to p. regius, over the past 10 years I've had numerous conversations with people in West Africa both working on the farms and sitting on the CITES board, and have friends that have gone over to West Africa that have participated in the wild collection of ball pythons, purchased them, and sent them back to their home countries. I know how it works. ;)

-adam

So on those farms is it like a gator farm or is it just the collecting of wild females?? If you have any type of document I am saying i would like to read it just to know and understand, you saying you don't need documents doesn't help me understand where your comming from. I understand that you have been dealing with this for a while which is why i am sure at times it may not seem like i do,i respect what your saying and am learning.:)


wildlifewarrior

Wow, thanks everyone for your advice! In regards to Wildlifewarrior's & Sapphire7's question: Yes, he is indeed a CH. Collette received a few CH's before they were 10 days old. The one I am purchasing isn't from the actual Snake Keeper line. I'm not too worried...She's switched him to frozen thawed for me and he's doing great. Plus, he's a photogenic little bugger. I'll post some pics when I get them!!

Congrats!!!!! :banana:

Neil

THANKS!

Great to hear she switched them for ya save you some time and effort!

wildlifewarrior

Yes, I am sooo grateful for that. BTW, is it true that you shouldn't keep a hatchling in too big of a cage? Right now, I've got a 20 gallon reptile aquarium (which I think is funny that they slap a screen on top & Ta-DA! You've got a reptile aquarium...right), but I've got my eye on a 3 foot long cage from animal plastics...Also, I've been trying to research ways to insulate the glass aquarium. I'm pickin' your brains yet again! Anybody have any suggestions? I'm just screamin' "newbie", aren't I? :rolleye2:

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Originally Posted by rjks325

Yes, I am sooo grateful for that. BTW, is it true that you shouldn't keep a hatchling in too big of a cage? Right now, I've got a 20 gallon reptile aquarium (which I think is funny that they slap a screen on top & Ta-DA! You've got a reptile aquarium...right), but I've got my eye on a 3 foot long cage from animal plastics...Also, I've been trying to research ways to insulate the glass aquarium. I'm pickin' your brains yet again! Anybody have any suggestions? I'm just screamin' "newbie", aren't I? :rolleye2:

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That's fine, 'cause we love "newbies" around here...so it just makes ya more lovable! ;)

Here's my thoughts on big cages and baby snakes. It's possible to successfully house a baby BP in a relatively large enclosure. Some babies are "braver" than others, more outgoing or laid back or whatever. But it is more likely for a young BP to be timid and nervous...so you could end up with an unhappy baby. If you're prepared for that eventuality, then you can certainly try a larger enclosure and see what happens.

If you do...place lots of tight little hides for it to choose from...as well as some silk/plastic plants or crumpled newspaper for it to "hide" in as well when its moving around.

If the baby eats and sheds and poops and grows....then you've done it! But if the baby refuses to eat, then you'll need to consider the fact that it may be stressed out by too much territory. Have a small plastic tub standing by ready to house him for a few months until he's big enough to not feel quite so intimidated by that much space.

(Sorry so verbose...guess I'm just in a chatty mood! LOL)

:sweeet: Thank you, Judy! I've got two setups ready (well, almost ready; I still need a thermostat):

20 gal aquarium Rubbermaid Tub
aspen bedding newspaper bedding
rock water dish water dish
2 hides flexwatt
UTH
Accurite thermometer/hygrometer
driftwood

I guess I bought the tub for feeding purposes, but it could become it's semi-perminent home if need be...

No reason to use a separate feeding tub, really. But it'll be good to have around in case he doesn't like the tank...or for holding him when you're cleaning the tank, etc.


How much longer until you bring the new little one home? :)

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Originally Posted by rjks325

:sweeet: Thank you, Judy! I've got two setups ready (well, almost ready; I still need a thermostat):

20 gal aquarium Rubbermaid Tub
aspen bedding newspaper bedding
rock water dish water dish
2 hides flexwatt
UTH
Accurite thermometer/hygrometer
driftwood

I guess I bought the tub for feeding purposes, but it could become it's semi-perminent home if need be...

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Sounds good, but if you have a tough time keeping up the humidity in the glass tank, you can always switch him into the tub until he outgrows it. Then you'll need a bigger tub. ;)

Well, hopefully I'll be getting it around the 21st of October. As long as that's cool with Dan & Collette at the Snake Keeper. I feel like a little kid on Christmas Eve! So is there any way to better insulate a glass aquarium?? I've read everything from getting laminate floor tile and siliconing it to the insides of the tank to just simply covering the top of the aquarium with a towel... If the little guy doesn't flourish in the tank, then I'll transfer him to the tub, but I'd reeeeally like to make the tank work first...

Cassandra and her beau put together a great guide on putting together a glass enclosure. It's posts #2-5 on this thread:


http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=32800

I tried glass with Kashmire - but after my experience last winter with a six month fast, I finally switched him to a tub set-up and he's been eating like gang-busters for me.

I liked the idea of a glass tank, but it finally boiled down to what was best for Kashmire, and in MY case, a tub set-up was best for him.

After experiencing the ease of maintaining tubs, I personally would never use glass again, even if I reduced my crew down to just one snake.

But enough of that - I'm excited for you too! It is like waiting on Christmas! Wait until the day he ships and then you'll be up all night tracking his progress! Fun stuff!!!! Makes me wistful!

wow. now i see what you guys mean about people who dont know a darn thing about what the devil they're talking about but write as they do.
lol cry.

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Originally Posted by shhhli

wow. now i see what you guys mean about people who dont know a darn thing about what the devil they're talking about but write as they do.
lol cry.

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Huh? What are you referring to?

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Huh? What are you referring to?

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well- in going back to copy & paste for this i read a sentence wrong XD
i thought someone misstated what a CH was, but then also the thing about the trading.

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Originally Posted by rjks325

:aww: Hi everyone, my name is Rachel and I'm from Texas. Just about everything I've read has said to not buy a captive hatched animal....but what about a captive hatched from a respected breeder? :confused: I will be getting a 4 month old little CH from the Snake Keeper. They seem to be reeeeally nice and extremely knowledgeable. What is anybody else's take on the subject?

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welcome to the forum. don't fret... most threads go off on a tangent and it in these moments where great learning takes place! moments where adam shares his knowledge (he has a great deal of the stuff... floating around in his head!) and we all soak it up. :snake:

and remember... without questions... there are no answers!

Man, I DO love this site. Everybody is a lot nicer and more helpful than I expected! Thank you for that link Robin! I'm definitely going to try that top screen modification.