Ball python cannibalism

I know one of the main reasons not to house ball pythons together is cannibalism...does anyone have a pic I can use as an example? Someone doesn't believe me that it happens and the only cannibalism pic I can find is of a BCI that ate a ball python that was almost identical in size.

I had never heard of this, I know stress is the main concern..sheesh. I also want to see this now. :O

Here is the site that I believe will tell and show you what you need. I'd look at it all. But the one with the boa eating the Bp is in the middle of the page;



http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...l%3Den%26lr%3D

I for one think if your snake is well fed and is not hungry it will not eat. Hence not eating another snake.

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Originally Posted by Sapphire7

I for one think if your snake is well fed and is not hungry it will not eat. Hence not eating another snake.

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Cannibalism in boids by all accounts is stress related and has nothing to do with hunger.

-adam

Here you go!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...tic_royals.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ic_royals2.jpg

Please please please, especially if you keep young snakes, keep them solo.

I Should really say, that its only a bad thing in the captive environment, when its being done through keeper error.. snakes eating snakes that is.. technically, snakes who eat OTHER SPECIES of snakes are of practicing ophiophagy, and not cannibalism.

Many snakes in the wild, from non venomous like King Snakes, to hots like the Coral Snake, have snakes in their natural diet... and many many more species take reptiles generally...and of course this is a totally natural and non-remarkable situation.. however.. keeping them captive within 4 walls controlled by a human.. is a different ball game.. whilst we keep them in captivity, we must be responsible for them!

im sad now

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Originally Posted by lillyorchid

Here you go!

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wow! The Bp that ate the other snake was smaller too! Crazy!:(

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Cannibalism in boids by all accounts is stress related and has nothing to do with hunger.

-adam

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But is there actual proof that says snakes will eat others if they are stressed out? Im not doubting you and will never attempt to house my snakes together. But at the petstore you cannot deny the snakes are not stressed. They are underfed and dehydrated, all shoved in one small tank and have only one half log all compete and shove themselves in there and only fed once a week on small mice. :(

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Originally Posted by Sapphire7

But is there actual proof that says snakes will eat others if they are stressed out? Im not doubting you and will never attempt to house my snakes together. But at the petstore you cannot deny the snakes are not stressed. They are underfed and dehydrated, all shoved in one small tank and have only one half log all compete and shove themselves in there and only fed once a week on small mice. :(

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True, that one can't deny the conditions of bp's housed in pet stores. But I'll bet ya its equally true that pet stores don't document cases of cannibalism, either. As a general consumer, we have no way of knowing how many of those baby snakes get eaten by a cage mate. The employees certainly aren't going to tell us! I don't doubt that it's somewhat rare, but I would bet it happens more than most folks think.

Here's a thread from the other day where a member of this site had a close call.

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ighlight=owner

It's nothing like the picture, but just some more proof that housing two BP's together can be risky.

BTW, what happened to the pink writing?

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Originally Posted by JLC

True, that one can't deny the conditions of bp's housed in pet stores. But I'll bet ya its equally true that pet stores don't document cases of cannibalism, either. As a general consumer, we have no way of knowing how many of those baby snakes get eaten by a cage mate. The employees certainly aren't going to tell us! I don't doubt that it's somewhat rare, but I would bet it happens more than most folks think.

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That may be a reason why pet store snakes seem to go fast when no one is buying! But for the last 2 wks the same old poor dehrydrated snakes are there:( I even try telling the "reptile man" that 30-40% humidity is way too low especailly having a tank at the constant temp of 85-90 degrees!!!:mad: :( But no one seems to take the person who has owned healthy snakes almost all her life and who is always buying from them into consideration that she actually knows what she is talking about!:mad:

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Originally Posted by Sapphire7

But at the petstore you cannot deny the snakes are not stressed. They are underfed and dehydrated, all shoved in one small tank and have only one half log all compete and shove themselves in there and only fed once a week on small mice. :(

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i'm not trying to argue with you about this , but i do wish you would specify a specific petshop as aposed to just a general reference to petshops . granted there are alot of petshops out there that are like you state , but there are also alot of petshops out there that do care about the animals they sell and do take proper care of them . i work at a petshop myself and our animals are kept in the best possible conditions . we quarentine our animals on arrival and wont sell any animals that are not healthy and eating regularly . our reptile department has a staff of 10 to 12 experienced herpers most of whom have been keeping and or breeding retiles of all kinds for years or are young people with a true interest in reptiles and a desire to learn more . we also try our best to make sure the people who come in to buy a reptile know exactly what they are getting into with whatever animal they choose .

sorry for the rant , but i just see to many people out there that throw all petshops into the same catagory regardless of the facts . sapphire , this was not aimed at you , i have had this building for a while .

as far as housing snakes of any kind together , i'm against it for the reasons already stated . the only exception to this i can think of is for breeding purposes . just my 2 cents worth , thanks for letting me blow off some steam .

That i just sad. I wonder if the one that ate the other one, was still alive, was put down, or died after eating that huge meal..? At any rate, I think it's actually a great set of pictures, to show people why housing together is bad (except for breeding, of course..)
This is just my uneducated-about-BP-cannibalism guess; maybe it was 2 males that had started fighting..?

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Originally Posted by Sapphire7

But is there actual proof that says snakes will eat others if they are stressed out?

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Yes, it's been documented. There's an old copy of Reptiles and Amphibians Magazine that actually published an article about the relationship between stresss and cannibalism in ball pythons (the pictures above are scanned images from that article) ... Also, I'm fairly certain that Ross goes over the relationship between stress and cannibalism in "The Reproductive Husbandry of Pythons & Boas"

-adam

Sorry I dont want another debate if I name a specific petshop. But all the ones I've ever went to did house snakes together and if you are a bird expert like myself (had more birds than I can think of) and if you went into any petshop sometimes it makes you want to cry. I try not to visit the birds, and snake areas. I love to visit the rat and squeak at them They'll stop what they're doing and look at me, SOO CUTE! But Im sure there are few petstores out there that actually care for their snakes like they should.

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

This is just my uneducated-about-BP-cannibalism guess; maybe it was 2 males that had started fighting..?

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Nope, male to male combat in ball pythons is a ritual directly tied to breeding ... not so much a "fight" as a "contest" ... and nothing that would ever end in cannibalism.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Yes, it's been documented. There's an old copy of Reptiles and Amphibians Magazine that actually published an article about the relationship between stresss and cannibalism in ball pythons (the pictures above are scanned images from that article) ... Also, I'm fairly certain that Ross goes over the relationship between stress and cannibalism in "The Reproductive Husbandry of Pythons & Boas"

-adam

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Hmm. Interesting. Im sorry if I sound like a complete dwit sometimes but I never thought they'd eat when stressed. Sounds like they're becomming more and more human to me. LOL. But what if they are completely full would they still kill and try to eat when stressed?

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Originally Posted by Sapphire7

But is there actual proof that says snakes will eat others if they are stressed out? Im not doubting you and will never attempt to house my snakes together. But at the petstore you cannot deny the snakes are not stressed. They are underfed and dehydrated, all shoved in one small tank and have only one half log all compete and shove themselves in there and only fed once a week on small mice. :(

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What more proof do you want? Here's a pictures of two snakes that were obviously being housed together and one decided to eat the other one. Even if the chances are 1 in a million of this happening, anyone who gives two flips about the welfare of their animals would be convinced that housing them together is not worth it.

Do you happen to house any of your snakes together????

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Originally Posted by Sapphire7

completely full would they still kill and try to eat when stressed?

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Yes ... "full" is not a concept that applies in this case.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Sapphire7

Hmm. Interesting. Im sorry if I sound like a complete dwit sometimes but I never thought they'd eat when stressed. Sounds like they're becomming more and more human to me. LOL. But what if they are completely full would they still kill and try to eat when stressed?

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Read what Adam posted above. Hunger is irrelevent. Stress is the factor here.

Rant on

It amazes me the people that dismiss the experience of long time keepers and still insist on housing together because their snakes are the exception and "love" each other and cuddle. Boggles the mind. Even AFTER seeing the pictures like above and they still think they know better than all the combined experience out there.

Rant off

It's an unfortunate reality that the welfare of animals will suffer on part of the ignorance of their keepers.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

It's an unfortunate reality that the welfare of animals will suffer on part of the ignorance of their keepers.

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Ignorance I can deal with - but stupidity, I can't.

Ignorance is not having all the information and not knowing any better.

Stupidity is having the information and choosing to continue to do it, despite the animals' best interest.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

What more proof do you want? Here's a pictures of two snakes that were obviously being housed together and one decided to eat the other one. Even if the chances are 1 in a million of this happening, anyone who gives two flips about the welfare of their animals would be convinced that housing them together is not worth it.

Do you happen to house any of your snakes together????

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Well they could've been hungry Look at the bp's stomach only fill with the snake and no mouse or anything. So I just wanted to see if it was caused by stress and not hunger.

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Originally Posted by Sapphire7

Well they could've been hungry Look at the bp's stomach only fill with the snake and no mouse or anything. So I just wanted to see if it was caused by stress and not hunger.

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Question asked and answered. It was not caused by hunger.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Rant on

It amazes me the people that dismiss the experience of long time keepers and still insist on housing together because their snakes are the exception and "love" each other and cuddle. Boggles the mind. Even AFTER seeing the pictures like above and they still think they know better than all the combined experience out there.

Rant off

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I never said anything of the like. I just wanted proof. It looks like the snake seemed to be hungry. And ONLY wanted to know if they were full when the Bp killed and ate another Bp.... People always have a way to twist words of others:(

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Question asked and answered. It was not caused by hunger.

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But how do you know? The snakes stomach looks empty. :confused: Oh well. Im not in a mood for debating:confused:

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Originally Posted by Sapphire7

I never said anything of the like. I just wanted proof. It looks like the snake seemed to be hungry. And ONLY wanted to know if they were full when the Bp killed and ate another Bp.... People always have a way to twist words of others:(

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I wasn't replying to you in my rant. I'm replying in general to all the people who insist on housing together, when 100's of years of experience (combined) tell you that it should never be done.

One of the more experienced keepers on this forum (Adam) has answered your questions - that cannibalism has nothing to do with hunger, and everything to do with dominance. I'm not understanding why you still think it's hunger?

When Ball pythons are taken from the wild I read that they can be found together in a hole. And so Im only trying to get more educated than I already am. And I like to have a further understanding about these snakes.:)

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Originally Posted by Sapphire7

But how do you know? The snakes stomach looks empty. :confused: Oh well. Im not in a mood for debating:confused:

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Have you ever personally experienced a necropsy on a ball python, or any other animal for that matter? How would you know what an empty stomach looks like?

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Originally Posted by rabernet

One of the more experienced keepers on this forum (Adam) has answered your questions - that cannibalism has nothing to do with hunger, and everything to do with dominance. I'm not understanding why you still think it's hunger?

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Yes but I just want to know if the snakes were full. Has anyone ever had a problem if there snakes are full? Snakes are found together in the wild in Africa when they are imported over here and I am not sure if they eat eachother in the wild. But then again in the wild they can leave the hole they were in with the other Bp's and find their own little area of the woods. And I never will house my snakes together. I dont think I have a big enough enclosure to house 1 retic, 1 rtb, 1 bp, and one 1 corn snake. And if I did I wouldnt anyway because I think we all diserve our own bedrooms. And I remember when my kids were growing up they'd fight eachother and it reminds me how snakes react (without actual killing)

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Have you ever personally experienced a necropsy on a ball python, or any other animal for that matter? How would you know what an empty stomach looks like?

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Well Im just saying it "looks" empty. Not saying it is. Just it does. No decaying food no "moosh" from digested food just the big bp in the smalller bp's stomach.And thats why I was wopndering if the snake was full in the article the guy posted. Also I have studied the insides of animals and I know what digested food looks like. But never studied snake. But thats why I am only wondering. We cant all think we're because someone says thats the answer without actually us all comparing data. But only having 1 Bp and never housing to snakes of any kind together I wouldn't know.

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Originally Posted by Sapphire7

And if I did I wouldnt anyway because I think we all diserve our own bedrooms. And I remember when my kids were growing up they'd fight eachother and it reminds me how snakes react (without actual killing)

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Haven't we heard enough human to snake analogies for one day??? ;)

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Haven't we heard enough human to snake analogies for one day??? ;)

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That was only saying. I was just saying hmm snakes also get stressed if housed togetehr (if they're not hungry) and so do humans.. not saying it in defense for myself or for you. Just saying.

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Originally Posted by Sapphire7

When Ball pythons are taken from the wild I read that they can be found together in a hole. And so Im only trying to get more educated than I already am. And I like to have a further understanding about these snakes.:)

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That's an easy one. Breeding season. One female - multiple males. The males are competing to be with the female.

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Originally Posted by Sapphire7

I never said anything of the like. I just wanted proof. It looks like the snake seemed to be hungry. And ONLY wanted to know if they were full when the Bp killed and ate another Bp.... People always have a way to twist words of others:(

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Ball pythons are specifically designed to prey on warm blooded animals. They have labial pits that are designed to help them hunt and prey on warm blooded animals like rodents ... there has yet to be a field study where ball pythons were found with any type of reptile species in their stomach contents. Snakes that eat other snakes are limited to a very specific number of species and are highly specialized to do so.

A "hungry" snake will not just consume anything placed in the enclsoure with it, it has to recognize the food item as a familiar prey type.

When a ball python swallows another snake it's the result of stress, not because it was "hungry" in any way shape or form .. even if it's stomach contents were empty.

-adam

Hmmm, thats very understanding. What about the larger snakes that mistake their handlers for food and the handlers do not smell like food themselves? Isnt it the warm body heat? Lets say you have a warm snake in your hands and then put the snake on the warm end of the tank and then it slithers to the cooler end where the other snake is at then the other snake (that was on the cooler end) sees the warm body heat and strike out of hunger? What do you think of that one? (Im not trying to have hair pulling just trying to get a better understanding:) ):tricho:

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Originally Posted by Sapphire7

When Ball pythons are taken from the wild I read that they can be found together in a hole. And so Im only trying to get more educated than I already am. And I like to have a further understanding about these snakes.:)

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Just because they are found together in a hole, doesn't mean they are being forced to live together ... other than during breeding season, multiple ball pythons can be found in the same space due to a older more dominant animal moving in and trying to get the younger snakes to leave by dominating them. This domination eventually causes enough stress to the younger/weaker animals that they leave, allowing the older/stronger animal to take over residence of what he/she feels is "prime real estate" ... in captive environments when multiple ball pythons are housed together, this same behavior is replicated as it would occur in the wild (100% instinct) ... except the younger/weaker animals have no where to go and they become incredibly stressed ... this stress can lead to cannibalism.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Sapphire7

Hmmm, thats very understanding. What about the larger snakes that mistake their handlers for food and the handlers do not smell like food themselves? Isnt it the warm body heat? Lets say you have a warm snake in your hands and then put the snake on the warm end of the tank and then it slithers to the cooler end where the other snake is at then the other snake (that was on the cooler end) sees the warm body heat and strike out of hunger? What do you think of that one? (Im not trying to have hair pulling just trying to get a better understanding:) ):tricho:

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A snake does not radiate heat like a warm blooded mammal does ... the other snake simply won't "see" it.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Just because they are found together in a hole, doesn't mean they are being forced to live together ... other than during breeding season, multiple ball pythons can be found in the same space due to a older more dominant animal moving in and trying to get the younger snakes to leave by dominating them. This domination eventually causes enough stress to the younger/weaker animals that they leave, allowing the older/stronger animal to take over residence of what he/she feels is "prime real estate" ... in captive environments when multiple ball pythons are housed together, this same behavior is replicated as it would occur in the wild (100% instinct) ... except the younger/weaker animals have no where to go and they become incredibly stressed ... this stress can lead to cannibalism.

-adam

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Ahhhh - the grasshopper has learned something new today!!! (that would be me) :rockon:

And sorry if I am upsetting anyone. Im just trying to figure out some things. Because I always thought snakes didnt kill because they are stressed but because they are hungry.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

A snake does not radiate heat like a warm blooded mammal does ... the other snake simply won't "see" it.

-adam

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But what happens if the body heat is warm enough to see? lol
Also you said they will feel stressed because they will feel there is no where to go. What if you have a very long tank and multiple hides and plants?

Some snakes do....kingsnakes, cobras, a few others....and as Adam stated earlier, they are highly specialized in order to do so. Ball pythons are not one of those species.

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Originally Posted by Sapphire7

And sorry if I am upsetting anyone. Im just trying to figure out some things. Because I always thought snakes didnt kill because they are stressed but because they are hungry.

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If a rattle snake bites a child that steps on it in a field and the child dies, was the bite because the snake was hungry? ... Nope. ;) :sweeet:

-adam

I feel like Im back in school. That was so long ago. lol
(If you hadnt already noticed I was the one always budding the teacher with the "why"? question. lol) I am just one of those people that likes to know everything and must have every possible question answered to accomplish that.:D

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

If a rattle snake bites a child that steps on it in a field and the child dies, was the bite because the snake was hungry? ... Nope. ;) :sweeet:

-adam

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Oh I know that. But what about the snake latching on and constricting the child and then attempting to eat the child? Like some very large snakes have in the wild. Anaconda and other large snake dont normally eat child but they do rarely however but its not one of their "foods" was this out of stress?

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Originally Posted by Sapphire7

Oh I know that. But what about the snake latching on and constricting the child and then attempting to eat the child? Like some very large snakes have in the wild. Anaconda and other large snake dont normally eat child but they do rarely however but its not one of their "foods" was this out of stress?

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that was probably because the snake was hungry and the child gave off a heat signature

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Anaconda and other large snake dont normally eat child but they do rarely however but its not one of their "foods" was this out of stress?

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A fully grown anaconda or rock python may very well see a small child as a potential meal and I'm sure it's happened.

Thats a totally different discussion.

We are talking about stress in ball pythons causing cannibalism.

Yeah but what if the snake was on the hot side of the tank wouldnt its body temp be warm enough for it to see? Or with scaley animals you cannot see body temps?

They don't radiate heat the same way, they don't smell the same way, they don't move the same way, they don't "do" any of the same cues that would indicate they were a prey item. As a result, they don't identify that as food. Be glad for that...if the latter were true, you'd have your snake latching onto your hand every time you reached in the cage.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

A fully grown anaconda may very well see a small child as a potential meal and I'm sure it'd happened.

Thats a totally different discussion.

We are talking about stress in ball pythons causing cannibalism.

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Yeah but we're talking about the snake not actually seeing another snake as food. And if a snake was hungry they may see another snake as food even though its not their regular food srouce, like a anaconda or larger snake eating something they're not use to eating. But.. oh well..

I feel like a prickle in the butt. Thanks for answering my questions:)