Question about axanthic genetics

I have an "axanthic" that I consider to be sub-standard. IMO, the best and only axanthics worth breeding come from VPI because they are the only line that doesn't tend to brown out. So my question is this: if I bred my sub-standard axanthic that is "browned-out," will I either (a) pollute the genetics of the VPI I intend to breed, or (b) does my sub-standard axanthic have the genetic capability to produce axanthics that don't brown out? I'm sorry if I offended anyone, but I'm just trying to breed axanthics that won't brown out, and most axanthics that don't come from VPI line tend to do just that. So forgive me :oops:

Depends. What "line" is your axanthic?

-adam

The biggest question, that I don't see the answer to is, Is your sub-standard Axabthic of the VPI Line? If it is not, then you will hatch Double Hets for both strains. No lines of Axanthics to the best of my knowledge have proven compatible. I know that some say that D&M line and Snakekeeper line are compatible, but I have never been able to find anybody that has the specifics on the breeding that proved that.

I don't know what line. The guy that sold the snake to us was kind of an idiot, and we couldn't get very many answers out of him

ok, say we didn't want to breed this axanthic to another axanthic to produce straight-up axanthics, but instead wanted to produce, uh...axanthic pastels, or axanthic killer bees or whatever the latest morphs are that you use axanthics to produce. Would the end result turn out to not "pop" as much as it would were it to come from a VPI axanthic?

If the guy that sold it to you was an idiot, how do you know it's an axanthic?

Idiot guy selling a brown "axanthic" that doesn't have a whole lot of answers ... sorry, but my money is on "normal".

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

... sorry, but my money is on "normal".

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My money is on the fact that you wear girls clothes in your "alone" time and it's "normal" for you. :bolt:

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Originally Posted by cassandra

My money is on the fact that you wear girls clothes in your "alone" time and it's "normal" for you. :bolt:

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O my way to much info here :O :O :O .I would like to see a pic of this axanthic you have.In my experiance if the person selling you a snake is a idiot answering questions the you just might have a everyday normal ball python that you paid to much for.Adam the cross dresser :fishslap: :fishslap: :fishslap: .Whats next :sigh2: :sigh2: :sigh2: .

First of all, he didn't sell it to us as an axanthic. We didn't even recognize it as an axanthic until after it had shed. (He was in blue when we bought him) We noticed he didn't have any yellow at all on his sides and we were very skeptical at first as well. Then we looked at a normal side by side with him and realized what we had stumbled on. The pic below is of him (the axanthic) with a normal.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f7...s/DSC00335.jpg

And this pic is of the Axanthic, a Normal, and a Pastel:

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f7...s/DSC00316.jpg

I know pictures don't ever do justice to the true colors of an axanthic. And I'm not an "expert" by any means. But to my eye, that looks like a very typical variation of "normal" colors.

Too "tan" to be an axanthic ... even adult axanthics that brown out are much much darker than that ... looks like a nice cream colored normal .... that's the really cool thing about ball pythons, even the normal or "wild types" are extremely variable and beautiful all on their own. :sweeet:

Here's a picture of an adult axanthic male breeding a normal appearing female for reference.

http://www.8ballpythons.com/images/lgAxanthicPage8.jpg

-adam

IMHO, definitely not an axanthic. On the other hand, that's a snake I'd personally keep as a dinking around project to see if you can reproduce that nice, light, banded appearance & creamy coloration. Very pretty BP!!!

K~

Maybe something good for a pastel project.

not axanthic,but i whould defintly try to prove that one out.Looks verry interesting to me

If it's not an axanthic, then why have I seen people posting pictures of axanthics even more brown than mine saying "this is an example of an axanthic" I fully realize that true axanthics are silver and black. That is why I said I had a sub-standard axanthic because it has browned out. I have been told time and time again that an axanthic has no yellow, and then I get one that has no yellow, and people tell me it's not an axanthic. What is up with y'all? Can no one have an axanthic that isn't a professional breeder or something?

As a side note, the normal that is pictured next to my snake that y'all say isn't an axanthic makes the brown in my snake stand out more than the silver. When he is in his cage solo, he looks VERY silver. I'll try to find a better pic.

Well....all we can do is offer an opinion based on the pictures you provided. Do keep in mind that some of these opinions are coming from people who own and have handled many, many axanthics of all shades and ages and lines....so they have a pretty good idea of what to look for...subtle clues and shadings that might not be apparent to many of us.


No one is saying that "only big breeders" can own axanthics...but it is highly unlikely that a genuine axanthic worth a few thousand dollars (even a "sub-standard" one) will just drop into someone's lap at a normal price. I would dare to say it's not entirely beyond the realm of possibility....but extremely unlikely. About on the lines of winning a huge lottery prize.

Everyone has said...the only way to know for sure is to breed it and prove it out. Since you don't know what line it is from, you can't know which line it would be compatible with....so the best way to prove it out (in my opinion) would be to breed it to a normal...raise up the "hets," and breed them back to their parent. Then you may either prove its an axanthic (because the babies will definitely be silver/black) or might prove that its really pretty look is genetic, even if its not axanthic.

It does not look like an axanthic to me either. However, it is a very nicely colored normal. An axanthic is a ball python morph that some people just have to see in person to figure out.....it is very hard to capture their look in a photo. Nothing is 'up with us'....people are just being honest.

If you really believe your snake to be an axanthic, then breed it and find out. However, without any genetic background on the animal.....all you can really claim to have is an 'axanthic-like' normal....if it is genetically reproducable, that is a different story.

Y'all never really answered my original question anyway. Regardless of the debate above, if I DID have an axanthic...any axanthic...say you know what line it is. If you breed a substandard axanthic to a brilliant axanthic of the same line, will the substandard one dilute the genetics of the brilliant one and cause the babies to be less than desirable, or will the brilliant one enhance the substandard's genetics in the offspring??

And what do you call a coloration in a ball python that has no yellow?

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Originally Posted by Collins2602

If it's not an axanthic, then why have I seen people posting pictures of axanthics even more brown than mine saying "this is an example of an axanthic" I fully realize that true axanthics are silver and black. That is why I said I had a sub-standard axanthic because it has browned out. I have been told time and time again that an axanthic has no yellow, and then I get one that has no yellow, and people tell me it's not an axanthic. What is up with y'all? Can no one have an axanthic that isn't a professional breeder or something?

As a side note, the normal that is pictured next to my snake that y'all say isn't an axanthic makes the brown in my snake stand out more than the silver. When he is in his cage solo, he looks VERY silver. I'll try to find a better pic.

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It's kind of like buying a honda and then saying "I drove it really fast last night, is my car a porsche?" ... If you have an axanthic, you know it because that's what you bought and that's what you paid for.

Metaphors aside, here's how I'm certain that your animal is not an axanthic without even seeing a picture ...

There are two types of ball pythons in the pet trade in the US ... Captive Bred and Born (also know as "CB") which are produced and hatched here in the US and Wild Caught (WC) or Captive Hatched (CH) which are hatched in West Africa and shipped to the US ... By most estimates, WC/CH animals out number CB animals in the pet trade by at least 20 to 1 ... It is extremely likely that your animal is a CH or WC from Africa.

If that is the case, from the time that animal was born it passed through a lot of hands ... The African trappers, the African exporters, the American importers, the American distributers, the American wholesalers, the American distributers, etc ... All of the people make their living buying and selling ball pythons ... THEY KNOW better than anyone else what a normal is and what an axanthic is ... To all those people an axanthic means more money ... If your animal was an axanthic, it would not just "slip through" the hands of all those people as a normal ... at least ONE of them would catch it and sell it for more than the value of a normal ... it's thier job to, and they are all very good at their job.

On the off chance that your animal is actually captive bred, it's even more less likely that a breeder that invested thousands of dollars into an axathic project, took years of their own time to raise up the animals to breeding size, and then after they finally produced an axanthic, sold it for a normal ball python price ... it just doesn't happen like that ... ever.

It's not that only professional breeders can have axanthics or that something is "up" with anyone ... it's just that if you don't really know what to look for, descriptions of mutations in text on the internet or in books can be misleading ... there's a big difference between an animal that looks like it doesn't have any yellow on it and an animal that lacks the ability to produce yellow pigment.

But hey, what do I know? ;)

http://www.8ballpythons.com/uploads/axanthics.jpg

-adam

forget about whether or not what we have is an axanthic. If, at some point in the future we have true axanthics, will a sub-standard one dilute the genetics of an awesome one. that's all I'm asking. Please stop harping on the "but you don't have an axanthic" thing. Thanx

There are lots of normals with seemingly no yellow. I have a normal male with no yellow, not incredibly rare in normals.
And that said, my goodness, it's amazing the attitudes that develop when a person isn't told what they want to hear. :frustrate

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Originally Posted by Collins2602

forget about whether or not what we have is an axanthic. If, at some point in the future we have true axanthics, will a sub-standard one dilute the genetics of an awesome one. that's all I'm asking. Please stop harping on the "but you don't have an axanthic" thing. Thanx

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Your original post looked very much like you were asking if we thought you had an axanthic. That being the case, and the ensuing discussion really distracts from the question you want answered now. It would be perfectly reasonable for you to just start a new thread that focusses on just that question.

(I'd try to answer it for you now, but I really don't know so my guess wouldn't be helpful at all.)

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Originally Posted by Collins2602

forget about whether or not what we have is an axanthic. If, at some point in the future we have true axanthics, will a sub-standard one dilute the genetics of an awesome one. that's all I'm asking. Please stop harping on the "but you don't have an axanthic" thing. Thanx

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Easy killer! Folks are just trying to steer you in the right direction around here, not beat you up. If anything, you're the only one really getting hot and bothered over whether or not the snake is actually an axanthic. Relax!!! :sweeet:

If you have a stunning axanthic & a not-so-stunning axanthic from compatible lineage, breeding the 2 together will probably give you a mix in the resulting offspring. You'll possibly end up with a some nicer animals, some average animals, and some that are not-as-nice-as-the-average-ones.

It's called selective breeding for a reason. ;)

K~

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

http://www.8ballpythons.com/uploads/axanthics.jpg

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I like peectures like this! :sweeet:

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Originally Posted by KLG

If you have a stunning axanthic & a not-so-stunning axanthic from compatible lineage, breeding the 2 together will probably give you a mix in the resulting offspring. You'll possibly end up with a some nicer animals, some average animals, and some that are not-as-nice-as-the-average-ones.

K~

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It might also be interesting to see a double recessive axanthic resulting from non-compatible lineages (homozygous recessive for both VPI and Jolliff for example) ....This might really bring out sliverish or lack of yellow so much desired as well. No one will know until it is tired. And it would be hard to produce (and know you produced) such an animal

Collins, similiar questions have been discussed in other thread.....http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...omplementation

I love that black back in that group Adam, well, I suppose it's a silver back huh. ;) Dang that's a nice 'un.

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Originally Posted by Entropy

I love that black back in that group Adam, well, I suppose it's a silver back huh. ;) Dang that's a nice 'un.

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Thanks! ... The stripe looks soooo "chocolate" in person ... I just want to eat it. :P

-adam