Possible loss of colony

Hi,
As some of you have realized, I have a extensive collection of balls. Most I have had close to a year, and I recently had my first successful clutch of eggs hatch out. I was intending to breed this fall/winter also.
Currantly all that is in jeopardy. I have a spider female that was sold to me as 100% healthy but is actually a spinner. Now I bought her in january, tried to work out something with the seller, who basically refused, then disappeared and refused to answer emails.
Early on, I took her to the university of Florida, and they said well it could be IBD, but after blood tests etc, they said well, we don't see signs of it. Gave me antibiotics, and wanted to get more information on the "spinning" stuff, as they had never heard of it.
Yesterday I took her in for what I THOUGHT was a respitory infection. Her mouth was wet, and in fact it turned out to be my first ever case of stomatitus. Mouth rot. They debrided it, did blood tests, fecal samples, xrays etc. They then informed me they found "suspect inclusions" in the blood. It is not definate yet. The spider ball will be euthanized monday to be necropsied. It was a hard decision, as I really adore this particular little snake. I've always called her my most expensive pet, as she obviously would never be breedable. She was quarentined from the collection for 3 months, but as most of the collection was bought at the same time, she pretty much has been in the same room with everyone. In other words MOST of them were in "quarentine" at the same time. She has never shared a cage with any of the other snakes.
BUT, if she has IBD, which I get to find out on monday, then with all likehood, ALL my collection is lost. It might take a bit of time, but they would all probaly already have it, with it being so contagious.
So right now I am asking that you keep my little Hepurn in your thoughts, and hope for me that I won't find that my entire collection is gone. I would never be able to replace them, and would lose not only a sizable investment, but the main focus of my life.
Thanks
WOlfy

Wolfy,


My thoughts and prayers are with you. From what I have read though, IBD is a very swift killer of pythons - usually within two weeks of infection. So, I would think if the spider came in with IBD, you would have experienced the losses by now.

It's never easy to lose our animals, my thoughts are with you for the best possible outcome considering the circumstances.

Wolfy,

So sorry to hear that.

If by "spinner", you are referring to what I have heard called "star gazing", rolling the head up, around, back, etc, and possibly head shakes, <edit> MANY <end edit> spider balls do this! <edit> MANY <end edit> of them! Some more, some less. Its not well understood, but it is definitely genetic, and apparently neurological. If this is what you are talking about, don't euthanize that animal!!!! I really doubt that it is IBD. I don't know about the "suspect inclusions", but don't euthanize based on the neurological disorder! Also, I have heard and read over and over that the spinning and head shakes do NOT affect feeding or breeding. Please, please, treat this animal for the KNOWN health issues (mouth rot), continue to quarantine it until that issue is resolved, then enjoy the animal for what it is. By the way, I have a spider that I purchased from a VERY reputable breeder, and yes, my spider does it too! It IS said that it usually decreases with age. Please don't kill that snake!!!!!!!!

Steve

I have edited this post to replace the word "ALL" with the word "MANY" to hopefully get this thread back on the original subject matter. Please see my new thread "Spins and Shakes in Spiders" if you wish to respond to my statement. Hopefully, we can save the life of Wolfy's snake!!!!

Steve

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Wolfy,


My thoughts and prayers are with you. From what I have read though, IBD is a very swift killer of pythons - usually within two weeks of infection. So, I would think if the spider came in with IBD, you would have experienced the losses by now.

It's never easy to lose our animals, my thoughts are with you for the best possible outcome considering the circumstances.

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Wolfy,you have every positive thought and prayers i can make for you and your collection not being hit by IBD.I also thought the IBD in pythons was a quick killer in pythons and boas were the lengthy carriers.Please keep us posted:(

Wolfy I think Robin is right the spinning it was doing isn't necessarily IBD. I've read some thread's here and spinning is mostly something in the Spider gene. I hope everything will be O.K Wolf good luck. One more thing that breeder should be slammed pretty bad on the net , let us know who they are so we won't do business with them.

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Originally Posted by hoo-t

If by "spinner", you are referring to what I have heard called "star gazing", rolling the head up, around, back, etc, and possibly head shakes, ALL spider balls do this! ALL of them! Some more, some less. Its not well understood, but it is definitely genetic, and apparently neurological. If this is what you are talking about, don't euthanize that animal!!!! I really doubt that it is IBD. I don't know about the "suspect inclusions", but don't euthanize based on the neurological disorder! Also, I have heard and read over and over that the spinning and head shakes do NOT affect feeding or breeding. Please, please, treat this animal for the KNOWN health issues (mouth rot), continue to quarantine it until that issue is resolved, then enjoy the animal for what it is. By the way, I have a spider that I purchased from a VERY reputable breeder, and yes, my spider does it too! It IS said that it usually decreases with age. Please don't kill that snake!!!!!!!!

Steve

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Steve, granted I don't know as much about spiders as others here, but I don't believe that ALL spiders spin. I believe Adam has spiders that don't spin, hopefully he'll see this and give his input on that subject.

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Originally Posted by hoo-t

If by "spinner", you are referring to what I have heard called "star gazing", rolling the head up, around, back, etc, and possibly head shakes, ALL spider balls do this! ALL of them! Some more, some less. Its not well understood, but it is definitely genetic, and apparently neurological. If this is what you are talking about, don't euthanize that animal!!!! I really doubt that it is IBD. I don't know about the "suspect inclusions", but don't euthanize based on the neurological disorder! Also, I have heard and read over and over that the spinning and head shakes do NOT affect feeding or breeding. Please, please, treat this animal for the KNOWN health issues (mouth rot), continue to quarantine it until that issue is resolved, then enjoy the animal for what it is. By the way, I have a spider that I purchased from a VERY reputable breeder, and yes, my spider does it too! It IS said that it usually decreases with age. Please don't kill that snake!!!!!!!!

Steve

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From my understanding some spiders have the "spinning" problem some dont.I know a few breeders that have spiders that do not have the spinners.Wolfy hoo-t did hit on something though.I wonder how the vet in one visit does tests that say no IBD problem,then "suspected inclusion":confused:.

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Originally Posted by hoo-t

If by "spinner", you are referring to what I have heard called "star gazing", rolling the head up, around, back, etc, and possibly head shakes, ALL spider balls do this! ALL of them!

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You've heard wrong ... I have over 30 spiders and they definitely do not ALL do anything of the sort.

-adam

"If by "spinner", you are referring to what I have heard called "star gazing", rolling the head up, around, back, etc, and possibly head shakes, ALL spider balls do this! ALL of them! Some more, some less."

WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! I have 2.2 spider's that will breed for me next season and i have never seen them do this.

So to say they ALL HAVE THIS IS WRONG!

I'm really sorry to hear that Wolfy! I am keeping all my fingers and toes crossed that the disease does not strike the rest of ur collection. :please:

This a terrifying thread I hope it's not IBD wolfy Like Raj said toe's and fingers crossed for you bro.

Personally, I would not euthanize the animal. Quarantine it from your other animals. IBD usually wipes out pythons pretty quick, so that does not seem like it would be the case unless you keep boas also and exposed your bps to IBD that a boa was carrying unknown to you. In that case, euthanizing the ball python will really do nothing IMHO.....either IBD is in your collection or not....and if the ball python has it it will die in a few weeks anyway.

If your animals are already exposed to IBD and you quarantine your spider and treat it according for the other problems....and it gets better, then you should have nothing to worry about. But if the spider dies on its own, then have the necroscopy to rule out IBD. I know if I euthanized a snake only to find out that it did not have IBD..I would not be happy with myself. In the time to determine what is wrong with the spider, make sure you have very good cage cleaning practices to ensure that if IBD is in your collection....you don't spread it....after all, if you spider has IBD, how do you know who else has it?

That is just how I would handle the situation. Hope that helps.

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Originally Posted by hoo-t

ALL spider balls do this! ALL of them! Some more, some less. Its not well understood, but it is definitely genetic, and apparently neurological.[/B]

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WOW....that is a pretty bold statement.

Have you ever actually seen a 'spinning spider'? Do you know that 'spinning' can occur any just about any ball python but is only commonly talked about with spiders because it is sometimes more common with that trait and people like to talk? Have you personally checked ALL spiders for this condition to be able to make such a comment?

Wolfy, I would definitely not put your spider down unless there is no doubt of IBD. Is it possible that the test was influenced by the mouth rot? If they thought they spinning was IBD I don't know that I would trust them with the life of my animal so quickly. If you wish to talk to me about this I will pm my phone number.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't IBD diagnosed (usually after death) by a biopsy of the liver (or some other organ)? It can't be diagnosed with a blood test.

Guys, there is a ball python that is scheduled to DIE on Monday. Please, lets focus on that rather than whether I'm right or not about genetic traits in spiders! I officially RETRACT my statement that ALL spiders exhibit this trait from this thread and state instead that MANY do and should not be euthanized because of it.

I'll start a new thread for the discussion of spins and shakes in spiders. Please feel free to flame me all you want in that thread.

Thanks!
Steve

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hoo-t

I'll start a new thread for the discussion of spins and shakes in spiders. Please feel free to flame me all you want in that thread.

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No one is flaming....just stating the truth about the situation to get the facts staight ;)

New thread in place - "Spins and Shakes in Spiders".

Steve

Hoo-t,
Thank you for the concern for Hepburn. Sheis not being put down due to the neuroligal concerns. She is being put down because the the mouth rot is severe, she is in pain, and they FOUND IN INCLUSIONS in the blood. NOT due to the spinning.
For the record, I have another perfectly normal spider(sam) who does not spin. The spinning is NOT stargazing which is different. Subtlely, but it is different. Please please rest assured that I am NOT putting her down due to the spinning!! She has spun since I got her in JANUARY, and I adore her.
The mouth rot was so bad, that debriding her mouth to clean it removed a LOT of her teeth, if that will tell you how bad. She has deep pits where infection ate into her mouth, and one that goes upwards through the roof. THIS IS NOT Unnecessary euthanasia. I'm sorry that you feel I should wait and see, but that is not happening.
The IBD pronosis is based on finding INCLUSIONS in the blood. Not neuroligical symptoms.
The vet told me she had personally seen it take longer in pythons to show, although I have been told by EVERYONE else I talked to that it swiftly kills ball pythons. It is entirely possible that this somehow came into the collection on someone else, and she simply is showing first having a slightly compromised immune system due to her genetic fault. She has never "thrived".
I appriciate all the good thoughts, I really really need them, as these pythons have basically become my life.

Rabernet, according to the university of Florida vets,
You can diagnose IBD by blood test, but you cannot conclusively RULE IT OUT with a blood test, as it may be concentrated in the liver. YOu can then also disgnose IBD with a liver biopsy but not RULE IT OUT as it may not be in that section of liver. The only CONCLUSIVE way to rule out IBD is through a necropsy.
I wish it wasn't so, but as she is in bad shape and in pain anyway, I would have probaly decided on euthanasia anyway. This was not a typical case of mouth rot, and I swear I didn't not see signs of the mouth rot on monday which is when I handled her extensively last. I fed on monday and then leave everyone alone except for quick spot checks for water and clean bedding until thursday, which is when I discovered the RI, which turned out to be mouthrot. I found the mouthrot thursday evening and she was at the university vets at 10am friday morning.
Again, thank you to everyone for the sentiments, I really really appriciate them. I will be responding on the spinning htread as well, as I have looked into this a LOT.
Wolfy

Wolfy, I'm so very sorry to hear about little Hepburn. :rainon: It sounds to me like you know what you're doing and are not taking any of these heart-wrending decisions lightly. :hug:


I really hope the rest of your collection is safe and sound!

Okay, new news.
After talking to our own Wild Bill by phone, and thinking it over even more(heart-wrenching doesn't begin to describe it), Hepburn's euthansia is on hold. I called the university vet, who said they were doing a stain that would be more definative. If the stain says "maybe" then we will treat for mouth rot, and then recheck. It is still possible that she will be authanized, but... I am giving her every chance I can.
Wild Bill let me know how easily pythons seem to bounce back from mouthrot, so I feel that with that factor taken away, I want to be more sure.
The special stain blood test will be processed monday. So I should know more then.
Thank you to Wild Bill and to everyone else that is rooting for me, I could REALLY use the good thoughts!
Theresa

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

Okay, new news.
After talking to our own Wild Bill by phone, and thinking it over even more(heart-wrenching doesn't begin to describe it), Hepburn's euthansia is on hold. I called the university vet, who said they were doing a stain that would be more definative. If the stain says "maybe" then we will treat for mouth rot, and then recheck. It is still possible that she will be authanized, but... I am giving her every chance I can.
Wild Bill let me know how easily pythons seem to bounce back from mouthrot, so I feel that with that factor taken away, I want to be more sure.
The special stain blood test will be processed monday. So I should know more then.
Thank you to Wild Bill and to everyone else that is rooting for me, I could REALLY use the good thoughts!
Theresa

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Wow, Theresa - sorry to hear about that I can only imagine what this has put you through.

Glad to hear that things are in a holding pattern though and of course we're all pulling for you and hoping for the best!

Wolfy, call Adam or anyone else on here with any good amount of experience and talk to them. It may be possible that your spider spins, but DO NOT mistake it for IBD. As previously stated, IBD kills pythons very quickly, so if your spider has been doing this for a few weeks, chances are it's fine. You then get into the spinning issue, which most spiders can grow out of.

Don't euthanize that snake......

elevatethis,
As I have stated before.. Hepburn IS a spinner. Hepburn MAY have IBD. Those are two seperate things. Right now I am waiting until the results from the stain are back. I am basing the diagnosis on BLOODWORK, not on neurological symptoms.
(I'm not angry at all, I just want to be sure that this is clear)
This python will NOT be put down due to spinning. She will be put down for IBD. As diagnosised by BLOODWORK and BLOOD TESTS.
I will of course continue to update, as I get more information. She has to stay at the hospital over the weekend, as they don't do discharges on the weekend. At any rate, I should know something more on monday.
Theresa

Theresa,
I hoping and praying for you that the results show that she does NOT have IBD, and that she is healthy soon.

Best of luck!
Steve

Theresa,
We are sending all of our prayers to you for some positive results. Let us know how it turns out, and hopefully, that stomatitis can be treated and Hepburn returned to a healthy state.

Good Luck,

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

elevatethis,
As I have stated before.. Hepburn IS a spinner. Hepburn MAY have IBD. Those are two seperate things. Right now I am waiting until the results from the stain are back. I am basing the diagnosis on BLOODWORK, not on neurological symptoms.
(I'm not angry at all, I just want to be sure that this is clear)
This python will NOT be put down due to spinning. She will be put down for IBD. As diagnosised by BLOODWORK and BLOOD TESTS.
I will of course continue to update, as I get more information. She has to stay at the hospital over the weekend, as they don't do discharges on the weekend. At any rate, I should know something more on monday.
Theresa

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I'm soooooo sorry to hear of Hepburns illnesses! :hug:

Maybe it's best that she stay @ the vet's over the wkend, anyway. Less likelihood of contamination continuing? starting?

Hopes and prayers are with you!!! And POSITIVE VIBES that it's NOT the yucky IBD.


RuLyn

Hang tight man...IBD does tend to whoop @$$ on pythons, esp compared to boas, so I'd bet dollars to doughnuts you'd be seeing it in your other BP's already if that's truly what it was.

Possible inclusion bodies can mean more than IBD, as has been discovered lately.


I've seen pythons bounce back from some pretty effed-up doodee, so don't lose heart. Keep in mind that "hurry-up-and-wait" is the name of the game in cases like this.

Chin up, hang in there!!!!

K~

I'm very sorry to hear of your troubles.. IBD is one of the worst things to have to worry about, but as was said before IBD usually will take out pythons very quickly, not like boas.

I sincerely hope your little Hepburn will bounce back for you.

Oh god; I am so sorry to hear about all this. I think it is good that you're trying to work on the little gal and give her a chance. Is she a new snake; could she have had the mouthrot before you had her? from what I read, mouthrot is very pervasive when not treated right; maybe she had it at the breeders' and it wasn't taken care of, and it just got worse?
At any rate, I sincerely wish you the best in all this.

Thank you all so much! You have no idea how much the responses are helping me.
I've have Hepburn since January. I haven't ever had a case of mouth rot, or RI and have lost exactly 2 pythons since I started with them about 10 months ago. One escaped(a baby female) and committed hari kari in a saltwater bin. No, I don't know why. The other was the female that aborted her follicles, or eggs, or whatever that actually was. She did have a huge belly scar, so perhaps that had something to do with it. So I haven't had any illness prior to this, and for it to hit not only little Hepburn, one of my very favorites bc she is so pitiful with the wobbley head, but that it could indeed wipe out all the rest too.. it is really a stunning blow to me.
Add to this that I lost my husband 2 years ago, and the snakes have been my major distraction that made everything seem like it would be okay.. well.. I'm just not in really good shape.
Again I TRUELY appriciate all the responses. Thank you all.
Wolfy

Quick update:
It is now after 6:30pm.
They still say the stain test still isn't done.
I'm still waiting while trying to not hyperventilate.
Wolfy

You know we're all holding our breath for you! :hug:

I am so sorry to hear this. Our best wishes and hopes for a good result from the tests.


Neil

Theresa, I hope you know we are all pulling for you, your ill BP and in fact, your entire collection. Even if the worst news comes remember you have a large group of friends here to support you through it. As much as we can all goof around sometimes, you won't find a better support system of caring, concerned fellow herpers. Hopefully though the news will be good and with your vet's good care Hepburn will recover completely from this mouthrot issue. That's what I'm hoping will happen for you.

OK> The UF finally called.
Now.. the vet said, they did NOT find "many" inclusions in the blood stain test. They expected to find LOTS. She also said that they still would think she has it, since it might be in her liver, with the blood being only "spillover" from the liver. The disease is typically in the liver tissues.
*I* found a paper online that said something was showing inclusions in the blood making it seem like IBD when it was in fact something else. Frankly I can't find that paper right now, but my friend read it too, just two nights ago when we were both scouring the internet for anything related.
I doubledchecked and the last snake to be brought into the collection was brought in in late march, meaning the snakes have been all in the snake room for five full months. No where have I found anything stating a BP has ever been exposed and survived more than 3 months. Boas yes, ball pythons no. I've never owned a boa, nor handled one, nor had someone else bring one into my house. No other snakes have come in. No people have carried snakes in, and very few people have ever been in my snake room.
I am now daring to hope slightly that it might not be IBD. Now I have to figure out how to pay the bill for htem keeping her over the weekend, and for the tests today. They want to do a liver biopsy, as the next step, so it could still show IBD then.
The vets continue to think it is, while everything else I have seen everywhere tends to say it isn't. At any rate, I'll find out more tomorrow. If I can work out the bill balance with them somehow, then I can get them to do the liver biopsy tomorrow too.
Keep hoping for me!
Wolfy

I'm Keeping You And Your Guys And Gals In My Thoughts While Crossing Fingers And Toes Over Here!!!!!!!!!!!

I think we all have grown a few extra gray hairs this past weekend from the stress and concern for you and yours;) .Well we all are still pulling for you and your snakes to come out looking great after all this.:hug: :hug: Of course all fingers,toes and eye balls are crossed waiting for the results.

Wolfy, here's hopin that the UF vets are wrong and its not IBD. Thoughts and hugs coming your way tonight.:hug:

New news today. The bill for the liver biopsy is ONLY going to be $180! The Mythbustersfanclub online members have donated $115 towards Hepburn's vet bills. I cried.
SO today they will do the liver biopsy, and either by tonight or tomorrow they should have a more definative result. IF it shows only SOME inclusions, she comes to the shop to be quarentined(rem my snakes are at HOME) and I treat her for mouth rot and see if she dies in the next month from IBD. IF it shows a significant high number of inclusions, then we may be putting her down to do a full necropsy. IBD is a bad way to go, but I am a little bit hopeful still. She has not gotten any worse since friday, and that is a good sign.
Wolfy(thanks for all the support!)

Hang in there, we're all hoping for the best...:grouphug:

Wolfy, here is a wish for the best results:hug:

My bet is that its not IBD...and more of a case of VGRDUT.


(Vets Getting Richer Doing Unecessary Tests)


The time frame alone would have been convincing enough that it wasn't IBD, but that's just my own worthless opinion......

Good luck Wolfy!!!

Crossing all my crossable bits for you and Hepburn, Theresa.

Yes include my positive interest towards hepburns recovery and the overall health of your collection...Also kudos to everyone offering to help!!

Latest update!
UF called, and Hepburn came through her surgery ok. She woke up and is resting. Now they will stain the liver tissue, and also do another more definative test that will take a few days. ANother day in the hospital for her. Another wait.
Twitch, twitch.
Wolfy

I have to ask, other than the stomatitis, has the snake shown ANY other symptoms? Regurgitation, anorexia, dysecdysis (inability to shed) or any neurological symptoms such as Stargazing or inability to right itself when turned over? I certainly understand the need to protect your collection but IBD is a quick killer in Pythons and no other snakes in your collection show any symptoms. It seems to me they might have jumped the gun. I certainly hope the tests come out ok!

They spotted inclusions in the blood. That is the main thing. Mouth rot is a precurser in ball pythons also(although it is also common in ball pythons in general).
Since Hepburn is ALSO a spinner, it is hard to tell if she has the IBD neuro characteristics. As a side comment, it also made it really hard for the vets to tell when she was awake from anesthesia. Usually when they stop being wobbley and all they are awake, but she doesn't stop! LOL. Poor girl.
Like I said, it has been 5 monthes since any new snakes have been added into the collection, and I can't find any symptoms at all.
I'm hoping.
Wolfy

So far everything sounds great wolfy. We're all pulling for you and Hepburn. Keep us informed.