I'm new without a clue about snake eggs, help!

I will give a synopsis of what is going on: we have two female balls Wilson and Del(or so the vet said) that share a tank. Yesterday, when my husband went to feed Del we were in for quite a surprise! Wilson, and Del for that matter were both wrapped around a clutch of eggs! So, here are my questions, with a female ball lay eggs without the influence of a male? We have a male but they are in seperate tanks and he is not mature so I know he didn't do anything. If snakes aren't like chickens and lay eggs just for the heck of it, I need to assume that the vet was wrong? Next question, we weren't planning for this until next year so we are completely unprepared. What temps and humidity should the tank be at? We have not candled the eggs yet b/c we aren't sure at the snakes reaction to us digging around in there. But we don't want to leave unfertile eggs in there, especially since Wilson has been declining food for four months and Del for almost one. Any advise would be most appreciated. Thanks.

Lyndsey

Well, maybe one of them is a male and was sexed incorrectly.

You should know what the tank's humidity and temps should be at when you bought the snakes.

Temps- 92-94 on the warm side 82-84 on the cool side. Humidity should be 50-60%.

Seperate the snakes as soon as possible. Snakes are solitary, and not social and get stressed from being together.

That is probably why they don't eat anymore, they are stressed.

Check the caresheet about Ball Pythons in the caresheet section.

Welcome to the forums. :)

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Originally Posted by beastmistress

I will give a synopsis of what is going on: we have two female balls Wilson and Del(or so the vet said) that share a tank. Yesterday, when my husband went to feed Del we were in for quite a surprise! Wilson, and Del for that matter were both wrapped around a clutch of eggs! So, here are my questions, with a female ball lay eggs without the influence of a male? We have a male but they are in seperate tanks and he is not mature so I know he didn't do anything. If snakes aren't like chickens and lay eggs just for the heck of it, I need to assume that the vet was wrong? Next question, we weren't planning for this until next year so we are completely unprepared. What temps and humidity should the tank be at? We have not candled the eggs yet b/c we aren't sure at the snakes reaction to us digging around in there. But we don't want to leave unfertile eggs in there, especially since Wilson has been declining food for four months and Del for almost one. Any advise would be most appreciated. Thanks.

Lyndsey

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Well I wouild say one of your "females" is a male. Ball Pythons will not lay eggs without the copulation from a male. The female will be quite defensive of her eggs, but you can usually remove her by placing a towel over her and gently unwrap her from her eggs. Females will try to keep the eggs at the right temperature by coiling around them. Your temps should be kept at the level in the post above. Anymore most breeders remove the eggs from the female to try to get them back on feed as soon as possible. But you would need an incubator to place them in. In the future it is best to keep one snake per cage to reduce stress and competetion for warm hides. Eggs should be incubated at 87-89 degrees and kept in high humidity.

Thanks for the temps and humidity. Any advise on how to raise the humidity? I know to raise you have to enlarge your water's surface area (thanks to hatching chickens), but with their large soak box I would think the humidity would be higher. Tank temps are 85-90 degrees during the day with humidity around 55-60%. The evenings we drop the temps to 75-78 degrees with a humidity of 40-45%. Wilson has always been a finiky eater, her sharing a tank is not why. I mentioned them not eating b/c I thought it would help to have that info to make an evaluation and b/c I do not want to 'wait and see' being I know they won't eat with eggs in the tank and I don't want them to go without food for their motherly instints. Del is not as bad as Wilson, she goes through stages where she's constantly hungry then doesn't feed. I'm not sure I agree with the solitary thing b/c these snakes cuddle and actually look for each other when they are seperated. They are both curled around the eggs.

Lyndsey

Snakes don't cuddle. I can promise you that snakes don't cuddle. They are fighting for the same spot. Put them in seperate enclosures, and I bet they might eat.

I will try to address these one at a time.

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Originally Posted by beastmistress

Thanks for the temps and humidity. Any advise on how to raise the humidity? I know to raise you have to enlarge your water's surface area (thanks to hatching chickens), but with their large soak box I would think the humidity would be higher. Tank temps are 85-90 degrees during the day with humidity around 55-60%. The evenings we drop the temps to 75-78 degrees with a humidity of 40-45%.

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First, it is really hard to control humidity in a large cage. Your daytime temps are fine, but there is really no need for a night time drop. Night time drops are really not needed. If it is getting that low at night that could very well cause you to lose the eggs.

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Originally Posted by beastmistress

Wilson has always been a finiky eater, her sharing a tank is not why. I mentioned them not eating b/c I thought it would help to have that info to make an evaluation and b/c I do not want to 'wait and see' being I know they won't eat with eggs in the tank and I don't want them to go without food for their motherly instints. Del is not as bad as Wilson, she goes through stages where she's constantly hungry then doesn't feed. I'm not sure I agree with the solitary thing b/c these snakes cuddle and actually look for each other when they are seperated. They are both curled around the eggs.

Lyndsey

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Keeping multiple snakes in a cage is a very real reason for them to not feed regularly. I have seen people with snake thet were kept together because they "enjoyed" each others compnay have problems feeding. When they seperated them and gave them the proper setup they became regular eaters. If your snakes have had problemswith being regular eaters you need to take out the eggs and incubate them, seperate them into different cages (setup per the caresheet) and get them eating. Those eggs won't hatch for 60 days from being laid, to long for them to go without food if they are not good eaters. What you call "cuddling" is competetion for the heat.

I describe it as cuddle b/c I am female, sorry. But isn't it possible a snake might want companionship? If not, why hasn't Wilson (who is 4.5 feet) killed Del (who is only 2-3 feet?) after six months of living together? They do not share a tank when they eat if that is a concern you have. They are both removed and fed in a separate tank. If they're not eating b/c they are sharing a tank, why wasn't Wilson eating regularly when she was alone? After two vet check up and a clean bill of health each time I would say she is only suffering from what EVERY ball python owner knows--ball pythons are known for being grouchie eaters-going months at a time. I appreciate the advise on temps, I am only new to eggs since we have never had eggs in all this time, not raising pythons. We currently have four, two we rescued and have brought back from certain death. Del was so under weight when we got her I could see every rib and her spine.

Lyndsey

Trust us, I'm pretty sure EVERYONE here would say that keeping them together is a very bad thing, with more consequences than rewards.

What thermometer are you using.

BTW- I hope you don't think we are trying to be rude or whatnot, we are just concerned and letting you know the consequences of keeping them together. They won't kill eachother, but Snakes don't need companion snakes unless breeding.

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Originally Posted by beastmistress

I describe it as cuddle b/c I am female, sorry. But isn't it possible a snake might want companionship? If not, why hasn't Wilson (who is 4.5 feet) killed Del (who is only 2-3 feet?) after six months of living together? They do not share a tank when they eat if that is a concern you have. They are both removed and fed in a separate tank. If they're not eating b/c they are sharing a tank, why wasn't Wilson eating regularly when she was alone? After two vet check up and a clean bill of health each time I would say she is only suffering from what EVERY ball python owner knows--ball pythons are known for being grouchie eaters-going months at a time. I appreciate the advise on temps, I am only new to eggs since we have never had eggs in all this time, not raising pythons. We currently have four, two we rescued and have brought back from certain death. Del was so under weight when we got her I could see every rib and her spine.

Lyndsey

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It could very well be that she doesn't feel comforatable in the setup you have her in when she was alone. Ball pythons are very picky and need their setup to be just right for them to be "comfortable". The only times my females refuse food is during breeding/ egg laying. I have over 50 snakes that are healthy regular eaters. Here is a link to a caresheet.

http://www.ball-pythons.net/modules....warticle&id=52

BTW, don't forget pics when they hatch!! We LOVE pics!!

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Originally Posted by beastmistress

I would say she is only suffering from what EVERY ball python owner knows--ball pythons are known for being grouchie eaters-going months at a time.

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Interesting. All of my Balls eat every week, and they're all in separate cages. :confuzd:

No offense, but I'm going with what my vet told me and he said it is perfectly fine to have them together as long as they don't endanger each other, which has not happened. If they bred (which I'm assuming they did) I'm guessing that would explain why they didn't eat. I know plently of people who keep mutliple ball pythons in the same tank. I will candle the eggs and remove what is not fertile. I'm not really interested in arguing this point anymore. Thanks for the advise.


Lyndsey

Ok, let us know if they eat. Good luck with the babies.

One last thing though. I wouldn't trust your vet in that case. Not all vets know much about ball pythons. Find a reputable breeder and ask them. They are probably much more experienced than a vet giving bad info.

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Originally Posted by beastmistress

No offense, but I'm going with what my vet told me and he said it is perfectly fine to have them together as long as they don't endanger each other, which has not happened. If they bred (which I'm assuming they did) I'm guessing that would explain why they didn't eat. I know plently of people who keep mutliple ball pythons in the same tank. I will candle the eggs and remove what is not fertile. I'm not really interested in arguing this point anymore. Thanks for the advise.


Lyndsey

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Lyndsey, we are not trying to argue any point. You asked for advise and we gave it to you. If your vet couldn't even properly sex a ball python, what makes you think they are qualified to give you advise on their care? We have some great ball python breeders here and you want to act like we don't know anything. Ask your vet how many ball pythons they have owned and how many they have had the pleasure to breed.

We are here to help you make your ball python's life a better one, but you have to believe we are not lying to you. :)

The guys and girls on this site can definitely be trusted when asked questions like this. not all vets can be trusted. my sister recently worked for a vet that performed unnecesary opperations on animals who did not need them at all. some people unlike all of us here are out there to make a quick buck so u can rest assured that all questions u ask here will be answered truthfully and backed by years and years of experience. good luck with your eggs! I hope everything works out for u.

I'm getting advise I DIDN'T ask for. I asked for breeding advise (which if you notice I'm not arguing with), not basic care. I got the first one, Wilson, almost two years ago and she's done nothing but thrive since she came here. I am confident with my vet, b/c who can tell me, in their life, they have never sexed a snake wrong? Accident? I appreciate all the wanted and UNWANTED help but I have found that this is most definately not a learning site but a 'lets see who we can make feel stupid and brow beat into doing it 'OUR' way' site. Not every ball python has eating issues but my local pet shop (which I'm not confident in and does not sell snakes) but even they know to constantly ask, have you ever seen the ball python eat? They can have eating issues. I'm sorry I came into this board and stirred up so much mess. I'll be going out the same way I came in.

Lyndsey

Lyndsey, we are not trying to stir up mess withyou. This is the best site about learning on the net. This unwanted advice that has been given to you is not something you should ignore.

Make sure you get an incubator ASAP, but I'm pretty sure you can make your own.

If you dont believe us then try some other sites and ask around. I guarantee you will see similar comments and suggestions. Ask your vet if they keep snakes. just because you knowledgeable in treating doesn't mean you know anything about keeping them. If nothing else, do some research about their natural habitat.

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Originally Posted by beastmistress

I'm getting advise I DIDN'T ask for. I asked for breeding advise (which if you notice I'm not arguing with), not basic care. I got the first one, Wilson, almost two years ago and she's done nothing but thrive since she came here. I am confident with my vet, b/c who can tell me, in their life, they have never sexed a snake wrong? Accident? I appreciate all the wanted and UNWANTED help but I have found that this is most definately not a learning site but a 'lets see who we can make feel stupid and brow beat into doing it 'OUR' way' site. Not every ball python has eating issues but my local pet shop (which I'm not confident in and does not sell snakes) but even they know to constantly ask, have you ever seen the ball python eat? They can have eating issues. I'm sorry I came into this board and stirred up so much mess. I'll be going out the same way I came in.

Lyndsey

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You are way off base, everything was told to you to HELP YOU!!!!!! All you had to say was thank you and quit responding. You decided to argue the fact that it was fine for snakes to "cuddle". I have owned snakes for over 16 years or more and know how little most vets know about snakes FIRST HAND. There are so many misconceptions out there about ball pythons because the vets are still reading care instructions from the 70's.

I am truly sorry you feel that trying to help you with the care of your snakes is not needed. You are more than welcome to be a part of this site, just don't expect us not to comment on care we do not agree with.

Sincerely,
The guy Who Tried To Help

no, you are getting advise you need. it just so happens you didnt ask for it because you dont know you need it.

please dont feel like we're bullying you. we're trying to tell you whats best for the snakes and the eggs. just because you dont like what you hear doesnt mean we are picking on you.

seperate the snakes. keep them at 92-94 warm, 82-84 cool, and 50-60% humidity. give them two identical hides on each side of their enclosures that fit them tightly so they feel secure, THEN you'll have a couple of feeding snakes. there's no reason for a ball python to not eat this time of year unless it's been overfed, which i doubt yours have.

just because i vet knows how to treat illnesses doesnt mean he knows proper husbandry. to treat an illness you do not need to know how to care for the specific species of snakes. trust me.

:petting: Dont sweat it guys....she's even going to toss the unfertiles. who knows? Maybe she'll accidentally toss one that's a slow grower and will never know it.


U can't force knowledge into a person----if they're unwilling to listen and learn, there's nothing U can do about it. :confuzd:

Just hope for the best for the poor eggies, that they'll get the care they need to survive and hatch out healthy. :worry:

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...dead_horse.gif

OMG :rofl: Lawrence, that's tooooooo funny :8:

:) Sometimes a picture really is worth a thousand words...

Lawrence that has got to be one of the funniest icons I have ever seen in my life. LMAO!!


-Danny

this woman is insecure! no one did anything but try to look out for our little buddies. people like that aren't concerned about their pets as much as they are their ego's... sad. very sad. :(

Another classic example of a person who wants to imprint human emotions on an instinctual creature. Man that burns my grits. Can only wish the best for those snakes, hopefully we won't see her on here posting how one ate the other after hugging.

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Originally Posted by Spaniard

Another classic example of a person who wants to imprint human emotions on an instinctual creature. Man that burns my grits. Can only wish the best for those snakes, hopefully we won't see her on here posting how one ate the other after hugging.

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I was thinking the same thing but didn't want to say it. I honestly don't think those snakes will last too long.

Why not? At this point we're just venting anyways, not like she's gonna come back and listen.

One of my best friends is a vet but he'd be the first person to admit he knows very little about keeping 'exotics'. Unless it is a vet with a special interest then their knowledge will not be huge.

OMG! Wilson ATE Del! I appologize for (some) of my previous posts BUT some of you have to admit you have been closed minded about this two snake in a tank and owe me a appology as well. In case anyone is wondering, they are not in a 20 gal tank. I understand you guys are trying to help me and that is all fine and good, but my snakes are doing very well, staying active and happy with their lives. You could say I was putting human emotions on a snake--sorry didn't realize not everyone looked at animals as individuals and not just 'pets' like I do. They need love and attention just like a dog or a cat would--or another human. They can not be bought, shoved into a tank and assume they will be happy. Even thought they are wild animals (in heart) they still need to feel a warm body--to not just be owned. A person should have a snake b/c they want it, not just so they can say they own one. And for the person that assumed I would throw the eggs away, I'm new to eggs, not an idiot. I appreciate all the support and people assuming my snakes are going to die. I'll let you know when everything is back to normal in my land and my snakes are fine. You can't tell me that each and every one of you have hatched sucessfully every time--that you didn't do something wrong. But anyway, I will shut up now, thank you for all the wanted, and unwanted information.


Lyndsey

p.s.--all my snakes eat live prey

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Originally Posted by beastmistress

But anyway, I will shut up now, thank you for all the wanted, and unwanted information.

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You mean, NEEDED information...

See what I don't get. Is that people should be wanting to listen to learn about how they can make their animals have a better life.I would listen to everybody, especially since its going to give my snakes a better life. Hard headed people...

:confuzd: :soapbx:

Being that Adam's not here, let me try to fill in for him...

"Wow"

and

"Good luck with that!"

:D

Snakes aren't cats, dogs or people. They don't need emotional warmth, happy thoughts or cuddles! They *need* good husbandry.

You are right that people shoould keep snakes because they want to* but realise that all the emotional stuff is one sided - anything else is anthropomorphism.


You may class this advice as unwanted, but it is good advice, given by people with decades of BP experience - if you truly love your snakes you should think long and hard about why you react so defensively to well meaning, friendly (and true!) help.

(*wanting to isn't enough IMO - you owe any animal a duty of care)

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Originally Posted by beastmistress

p.s.--all my snakes eat live prey

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I won't argue this part of our post. Even though you thought that would "shock" us, most people here do both live an F/T.

:fishslap:

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Being that Adam's not here, let me try to fill in for him...

"Wow"

and

"Good luck with that!"

:D

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BINGO!!! ;)

You can lead a horse to water.....................................

I've been avoiding this thread like the plague, but I really feel compelled to just add my :twocents:

I personify my snakes all the time. I talk to them even though they can't hear me, I cuddle them, I love them to bits as members of my family. They're good for me, and I believe I'm good for them. They aren't just specimens or pretty decorations or trophies. They're living breathing creatures whom I love very much. I totally understand where you're coming from.

That said, I actually don't believe any species of snake should be housed more than one to an enclosure except briefly for breeding purposes. I have several reasons for that. We're not being cold or unsympathetic to your snake's psychological needs, I promise.

First, if one snake gets sick then the chances of the other getting sick is lessened considerably. If someone regurges when you're not home, or has something wrong with his fecal droppings, you'll know for sure which one it was. If they're sharing an enclosure, you can never be sure and have to
pay to take 2 snakes to the vet instead of one! And buying another enclosure is generally way cheaper than vet bills, believe you me.

Second, snakes are solitary creatures by nature. They don't get lonely or like company. What may look like cuddling together is actually dominance behavior and stresses the snakes, which makes them more succeptable to illness and going off feed, etc. They compete for the "best" spots by
piling on top of each other. So even though they might not be biting each other they're still fighting in a way. Usually one snake ends up being the dominant and more healthy one, and the other is the more submissive and ultimately miserable snake. And I like my snakes to be as happy and stress free as possible. My male Blue Beauty is a perfect example of this. It looked like cuddling, but in reality he was being bullied. He's a lot happier now that he has a place to call his own.

And third, but least likely, is the possibility of cannibalism. I've been amazed at how that can happen even with snakes like corns or ball pythons, snakes you'd never expect to eat each other. It's rare, but it can happen even after years of living "happily" together, and I'm an alarmist by nature and prefer to play it safe.

Fourth, unplanned eggs. Sexing can be tricky, so accidents happen.

So, even if you gave them a whole lot of room to run around in you'd likely still find them often in one corner sulking together over who's the top snake, or find you have to take all 3 to the vet over one illness, or very worst case scenerio... find yourself with one very fat snake with somebody else missing. Best case scenerio, the snakes quietly resent each other in the best spots for years and just happen to be good eaters so you never notice a problem.

If something *could* be bad for my snakes, I prefer to avoid the risk altogether. It's safer and easier in the longrun. Vets, like snake book authors, don't always have the most up to date information. That's the beauty of the internet! Information moves so much more quickly, so we can do right by our animals as soon as new things are discovered!

In any case, I just wanted to share from one anthropomorphizing snake mommy to another. I find snakes to be as warm and loving pets as any other, but they speak another language. They're subtle, and hide what's bothering them. Kind of like when I was a kid and wanted my own room but had to share with my little sister. We get along LOTS better now that we live apart! Snakes are like that too, they just can't whine about it like I did.

I think everyone anthropomorphizes their snakes - I certainly do and I love Monty - thats human nature. My point is that you have to remember that is just what it is - snakes don't love you back.

Hey, are they even at their adult size? I would think that if not, it would be very cruel to the female, to have her being bred when not yet fully grown...

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Originally Posted by beastmistress

OMG! Wilson ATE Del!

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hate to say we told you so but WE DID TELL YOU SO.

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I appologize for (some) of my previous posts

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apology excepted.

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BUT some of you have to admit you have been closed minded about this two snake in a tank and owe me a appology as well.

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no, we dont. we tried to help you and you didnt like it so you felt like you were being picked on because you didnt hear what you wanted to hear.

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I understand you guys are trying to help me and that is all fine and good, but my snakes are doing very well, staying active and happy with their lives.

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yeah, they just like to EAT eachother sometimes though.:confused: and how exactly do you know that they're happy with their lives?

She was joking about the eating the snake thing.

Some poeple should take a test before they can own ball pythons

I'm all for snakes being loved, I love my snakes. They give me something to care for and it fulfills something in me thats purely human; an emotional connection yes, but a one way emotional connection. Love them, baby them, talk to them in stupid voices if it makes you happy; But when it comes to the facts they do not have emotions. Not saying all animals don't express emotions but snakes are not one of those animals. Your belief that these snakes have these emotoins is just endagering their welfare. We may be close minded about housing snakes together but thats b/c the juice isn't worth the squeeze.

I would like to hear your reasons for keeping them together, aside from the human mannerisms you've assigned them? If you can't think of any then all the reasons not to keep them together win and you should separate them.

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Originally Posted by bpkid

She was joking about the eating the snake thing.

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LOL, how did i not catch that!

......if you insist on housing the pair together, here is my advice:

1. Take the eggs out and incubate at 89 deg.

2. Take both the male and female out of the enclosure. Give them each a 'bath' and clean the enclosure reallly really good. The egg 'smell' causes female ball pythons to instinctually go 'off feed' so you want to get that smell and the eggs out ASAP so they will get feeding again.

3. Get your female feeding again as quick as possible. Since she just layed eggs she has probably lost a fair amount of weight. If you can not get her back to a healthy size and continue to house the two together, chances are that they will breed again....which can be deadly for a underweight female.

4. Do away with the night drop for a while. Night drops are useful only in simulating breeding season. A night drop coupled with the stress of being housed together and just laying eggs is just asking for a respiratory infection.

5. Do a little reading online. The problem with most snake 'care' with vets and some keepers is that they go back on the 'old ways'...5-10 years ago no one would have told you anything about housing two snakes together. Most books that were written even state that it is ok. However, since more people have begun keeping snakes, our knowledge base has been improved. Alot of things are changing in the reptile world since more and more people are keeping these wonderful animals.....the problem is many of us hobbiest and professional breeders are far beyond most vets and even some zoos on the most recent husbandry and even reptile keeping technology. We have individual members on this site that keep hundreds of reptiles and have hundreds of thousands of dollars tied up in their collections....we only want is best for the animals. So, always keep an open mind when suggestions are made.

Wow I take it she has never scene that one photo of the boa and the bp that shared the same cage. 2 snakes in one cage, not good for many reasons. Hope the eggs at least turn out....but if the do what happens to the babies? Do they all get to live together?

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Originally Posted by Wild Bill

What you call "cuddling" is competetion for the heat.

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Didn't I say this before in another thread awhile back and then very rudely get told I was wrong (not by you Bill)?

first if you werent planning on this till next year then your female could easily have died if she was not heavy enough(1200 grams MINIMUM but id go with 1500) so you are probably very lucky that your female didnt die.

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Originally Posted by JenHarrison

Didn't I say this before in another thread awhile back and then very rudely get told I was wrong (not by you Bill)?

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??? What thread was that? I don't think anyone here would have disagreed with you if you stated snakes were not cuddling for pleasure...unless someone just misread what you wrote. :confuzd:

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...d.php?p=379716

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Originally Posted by JenHarrison

...they will be forced to share heat/hiding places. The reason they huddle together is because they both want to be in that particular spot at the same time, and are forced to tolerate each other in order to stay there.

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Originally Posted by a particular someone

You should get YOUR facts straight before sharing your "expertise". The biggest concern with snakes sharing an enclosure is not that they will be forced to share heat/hiding places. How about the biggest concern being passing of disease? The huddling together is one snake showing dominance over the other not them fighting for heat.

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Well, I'm pretty sure they didn't mean to come off rude.