How Low?

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=32&de=431179
Mojaves $800.00 Shipped! Here is a morph that I believe sold last year for $5000-$7500!! $7500 to $800…that's a 90% reduction in a matter of months!

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=32&de=431174
Lesser Platty's, $2500 Shipped! Here is a morph that if I recall correctly sold last year for $20,000-$25,000!! $25,000 to $2500…that's a 90% reduction in price in a matter of months!!!

And this is not some Jimmy, no name breeder!! You can't play blame Jimmy for this one or claim poor quality or state unsure credibility or unsure service...this is MKR. How low can they go?

Not trying to stir up trouble, I'd just like to get some thoughts on this one?

Here you have a top level Ball Python breeder, selling below the Jimmy's….How, Why?

He could just be trying to twist everyone's panties before Daytona. But seriously, that's just really bad business. He mentioned he was going to "give it back" to their customers. Yeah, thats really "giving it back" when you cut the value of last year's customers' investments in half.

Why buy a lesser from him now when you could just wait till next year and get one for $1200? Or the next year at $600?

If he produces enough, he's going to force all the Jimmies out there to go even below this. But thats what it really means...is how much can he really produce? I know MKR has a large capacity, just not sure how big. Enough to really impact the overall market price? That'd have to be a lot...we'll see I guess.

Seeing stuff like this really makes me think about what to do with the money I want to put into ball pythons. I'm personally not going to buy snakes from any no-names...ever...I'll buy from sources that are going to support my investment and back up their product. Its a shame that many people are getting into ball pythons with dollar signs in their eyes and its truely no wonder that these people are always going for the lowest price deals on snakes without regard for anything else in the grand scheme of things.

I called Joe and here's what he said they aren't rare. So price that way.

That is seriously disturbing. I just don't understand why they would do this? I mean, WHY SO LOW? If i had a lesser and wanted to undercut someone- that'd be just 5k less or so- not 90%
Something is very very odd about this, its a more serious too good to be true. Honestly, If it proves these are real- I wouldn't mind getting one, only to inturn sell the babies at a 90% increase ^^
I'm just a little bit angry/disgusted. I wonder what his buisness plan is- Pay big upfront and wait a good long time for ROI & Profit?

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

He could just be trying to twist everyone's panties before Daytona. But seriously, that's just really bad business. He mentioned he was going to "give it back" to their customers. Yeah, thats really "giving it back" when you cut the value of last year's customers' investments in half.

Why buy a lesser from him now when you could just wait till next year and get one for $1200? Or the next year at $600?

If he produces enough, he's going to force all the Jimmies out there to go even below this. But thats what it really means...is how much can he really produce? I know MKR has a large capacity, just not sure how big. Enough to really impact the overall market price? That'd have to be a lot...we'll see I guess.

Seeing stuff like this really makes me think about what to do with the money I want to put into ball pythons. I'm personally not going to buy snakes from any no-names...ever...I'll buy from sources that are going to support my investment and back up their product. Its a shame that many people are getting into ball pythons with dollar signs in their eyes and its truely no wonder that these people are always going for the lowest price deals on snakes without regard for anything else in the grand scheme of things.

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You can only hope that others (not the jimmy) don't follow suit!

Oh well if Joe said so then I guess thats it!

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

I called Joe and here's what he said they aren't rare. So price that way.

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Aren't rare my arse. Boxers 'aren't rare' but that doesnt mean you're better off paying a grand upfront for a healthy animal instead of 7 grand later when it is riddled with all the problems that come with boxers..

What about people that put their time and effort into all of this? Oh, Your hard work for the past ten years isn't "rare" I guess I feel like making you SOL

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Originally Posted by shhhli

Aren't rare my arse. Boxers 'aren't rare' but that doesnt mean you're better off paying a grand upfront for a healthy animal instead of 7 grand later when it is riddled with all the problems that come with boxers..

What about people that put their time and effort into all of this? Oh, Your hard work for the past ten years isn't "rare" I guess I feel like making you SOL

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I don't think there is anything problematic with those dirty cheap morphs being sold..... but yes, a lot of years and hard work and set backs go into producing ANY morph!

Hopefully the sale is short lived and things go back to normal and not like what has happened to pastels!

3 BEL males, breed them to 20 females, big females that produce 10 eggs each , you are looking at 600 mojaves :)


Not that they went this overboard, but you can see the issue.. however I think it is harsh of MKR to screw with everyone this way, but it is their perrogative... when you consider tax they are getting $400ish after taxes per mojave?

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Originally Posted by Sputnik

I don't think there is anything problematic with those dirty cheap morphs being sold..... but yes, a lot of years and hard work and set backs go into producing ANY morph!

Hopefully the sale is short lived and things go back to normal and not like what has happened to pastels!

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Wishful thinking... if MKR is willing to sell this cheap, and has a large quantity, then they will continue to be able to produce a large amount and sell at low prices

Odd how it's right before Daytona.

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

3 BEL males, breed them to 20 females, big females that produce 10 eggs each , you are looking at 600 mojaves :)

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That would be like winning the lottery. All of them are going to become gravid, all produce 10 eggs, all of them hatch (No slugs) and all of them be perfect and eat just right.... ?

LMAO!

He said that it is a dominate trate and the breeders that have them have lots of them. Now he did say that he was only saleing 25 Lessers and 25 Mojoves and that price. So who know. I wish I could afford one just to see what came of it. He did say that some morphs like clowns and pieds being a ressieve gene are worth what people charge. But dominate trate like spiders and so forth you pay for two and to can make all you want. These are his words not mine I call him on the phone. He has 7 of the lessers left and no mojoves. He said that a breeder bought his mojoves and all but 7 of his lessers and ran out of money. He said the breeder told him after they were bought that it was irresponsiable of him to sell these at this price and he was buying them to keep them form getting out at that price. Joe was like I don't care who bought them or why as long as their paid for.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

I called Joe and here's what he said they aren't rare. So price that way.

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That's it!!
WOW!! How long before they feel Pieds reach this level?
I'd like to buy 2-3 for $500ea..LOL!

The thing is, are you really going to pay $10,000-$20,000 to a Big Breeder when you can by the same snake from another solid big name Breeder for $2500? OUCH!!
:tricho:

MKR just took away the "No name breeder defense" or the "You get what you pay for defense" or the "Don't support the Jimmy defense" or "Jimmy's don't dictate $$$" reasons for the drop in prices.

Here you have a top level breeder, selling these incredible morphs, below the Jimmy's! :O

Another term for that is called "Dumping them"!

Like I said, hope it is short lived and looks to be that way.

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Originally Posted by Sputnik

I don't think there is anything problematic with those dirty cheap morphs being sold..... but yes, a lot of years and hard work and set backs go into producing ANY morph!

Hopefully the sale is short lived and things go back to normal and not like what has happened to pastels!

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I think i was rambing with the dog bit- meaning, Boxers arent rare, but for sell high. I know people that wont pay more than 200$ for a dog, Regardless as to why it might sell high.
Same with bps- there's a reason, blood. sweat. tears. time.

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Originally Posted by ssscales

The thing is, are you really going to pay $10,000-$20,000 to a Big Breeder when you can by the same snake from another solid big name Breeder for $2500? OUCH!!

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I think a bigger problem are the shoppers that see the falling trend and wiat for it to level out before investing. This is going to hurt the market across the board, but I suppose it's inevitable and should probably be factored in to any breeding/business plans.

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Originally Posted by shhhli

I think i was rambing with the dog bit- meaning, Boxers arent rare, but for sell high. I know people that wont pay more than 200$ for a dog, Regardless as to why it might sell high.
Same with bps- there's a reason, blood. sweat. tears. time.

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Yup, a lot of time.... frustrations etc and yet more time!

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Originally Posted by Sputnik

Another term for that is called "Dumping them"!

Like I said, hope it is short lived and looks to be that way.

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That's what I was going to write!
They just took a nice quick dump on the BP market!

If it was a quick sale and it's done, the Jimmy's won't follow. Most will wait it out till he is sold out of the 5-10-20 morphs they have for sale and life goes on. Now, if MKR and other named breeders play that price game long enough the Jimmy's will lower the bar some more!

I know I'm knew on any scene with snakes but this is just irresponsible in my humble opinion.
H**** or High Water I'm selling these at this price because this is what I think they are worth regardless as to what everyone else feels. Its utterly selfish, irresponsible and WHY is this the only 'market' that makes people feel like screwing others work and then eventually themselves over? Its like everyone who at anyother business would fail jumped on the BP bandwagon.

rant rant.

Give the guy a call the way I understood it he was not reraising the price.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Give the guy a call the way I understood it he was not reraising the price.

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Boycott him and those who buy/resell at that price?

Thats the best thing. I agree hat this move is way weird right before Daytona. This is a 100% homo for Jimmy move on his part.

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Originally Posted by shhhli

WHY is this the only 'market' that makes people feel like screwing others work and then eventually themselves over? Its like everyone who at anyother business would fail jumped on the BP bandwagon.

rant rant.

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It's a highly competative business, for obvious reasons.... you have a huge variety of morphs and what's more is there will be more and more morphs. Ranging from high dollar to affordable morphs for most of us. The turn over is at this point endless.

This market also appeals to a lot of people because these animals don't get huge, are not born tiny and it's hard to find an aggressive ball python. They appeal to all levels of those interested in reptiles. So from a sales point of view, they are a great investment. Not to mention, they look very appealing to the eye seeing the different color morphs.

So when someone comes along and "Dumps" a few certain morphs on a market, it can crash that area of the market if the person doing it is a NAME!

Leaving all those that are working in that area in an almost bankrupt like position. Yes, it is irrisponsible and no, spiders and mojaves are not rare, but they don't deserve to be dumped for less then half their value either!

It might be wise to stay out of the blast zone of Table 735 in Daytona...

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Originally Posted by shhhli

Boycott him and those who buy/resell at that price?

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The idea is right, but the average person that doesn't have thousands of dollars to float around freely can't and won't pass up a deal like what was being dumped out!

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

3 BEL males, breed them to 20 females, big females that produce 10 eggs each , you are looking at 600 mojaves :)


Not that they went this overboard, but you can see the issue.. however I think it is harsh of MKR to screw with everyone this way, but it is their perrogative... when you consider tax they are getting $400ish after taxes per mojave?

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If you have 20 females that produce 10 eggs each how do you get 600 babies? Maybe my calculator is broke. ;)

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Originally Posted by Sputnik

Yes, it is irrisponsible and no, spiders and mojaves are not rare, but they don't deserve to be dumped for less then half their value either!

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I totaly agree. 100%

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Originally Posted by Sputnik

The idea is right, but the average person that doesn't have thousands of dollars to float around freely can't and won't pass up a deal like what was being dumped out!

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Yep, like it or not they just lowered the benchmark for those snakes. Even people are angry at MK for dropping the prices will find it hard to pay even $5K for a Lesser now.

MKR's new motto should be:

"Buy for less from us and we will undercut your sales next year"

Those mojaves were listed at $800 each....any others listed are at least $1500. They could have listed them at $1400 each and still sold out. Bad business IMO. They would have almost doubled their income on those snakes easily and kept the price outlook high.....instead they undercut all their previous customers and everyone else that was selling them for $1500. Bad business.

Don't doubt that they won't do it with recessives later this year or next year. Like they would say that they are going to drop prices below market again and risk hurting sales on the higher priced animals now....ha.

MKR could not pay me to buy a snake from them. All the supply demand garbage and 'giving it back to the customers' is not going to fly with me and is just a lame excuse IMHO.

Also, there is much better ball python morph stock available out there than MKR's....take their clown breeding stock for example....you pay for what you get...

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Originally Posted by Wild Bill

If you have 20 females that produce 10 eggs each how do you get 600 babies? Maybe my calculator is broke. ;)

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Maybe each egg will produce triplets! :)

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Originally Posted by xdeus

I think a bigger problem are the shoppers that see the falling trend and wiat for it to level out before investing. This is going to hurt the market across the board, but I suppose it's inevitable and should probably be factored in to any breeding/business plans.

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Absolutely, I myself have been really interested in BP's since early this year, but because of this BS we have been VERY VERY VERY reluctant to spend any real money on BP's.

With that said, I am looking at them as any other purchase I make. And as I have said before, I would feel like I was taken for a fool if I paid $2000-$3000 for item X and saw it next month (not next season) for sale from the same seller for $800! :mad:

See now thats good business sence

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

MKR could not pay me to buy a snake from them. All the supply demand garbage and 'giving it back to the customers' is not going to fly with me and is just a lame excuse IMHO.

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It's lame, and yeah, you wouldn't buy from him and most of us smart enough to keep the market where it should be, won't. BUT, he still sold out didn't he and that is the problem!

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Originally Posted by Sputnik

It's lame, and yeah, you wouldn't buy from him and most of us smart enough to keep the market where it should be, won't. BUT, he still sold out didn't he and that is the problem!

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Read my post on up he sold out to a breeder that call his move a totaly bad one. The breeder got all his mojoves and all but 7 of his lessers and all the ones he had for sale are/were male

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Read my post on up he sold out to a breeder that call his move a totaly bad one. The breeder got all his mojoves and all but 7 of his lessers

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I read it, obviously someone smart enough stepped in before the individuals got their hands on them! It still doesn't change anything....

I am slow :nerd:

True he got his money. But like they said what keeps him and others from flooding the market?

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Originally Posted by shhhli

I know I'm knew on any scene with snakes but this is just irresponsible in my humble opinion.
H**** or High Water I'm selling these at this price because this is what I think they are worth regardless as to what everyone else feels. Its utterly selfish, irresponsible and WHY is this the only 'market' that makes people feel like screwing others work and then eventually themselves over? Its like everyone who at anyother business would fail jumped on the BP bandwagon.

rant rant.

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I dont know that much about business but I dont think the BP market is the only market where undercutting occurs......

Though this is a huge undercutting

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

True he got his money. But like they said what keeps him and others from flooding the market?

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Nothing.... look at the price of pastels!

MKR reported breeding 3 male BEL's. I think it would be irresponsible to breed one male to 20 females but greed works in mysterious ways. They have set a precedent and others will follow unfortunately. On the other hand how many people bought these snakes thinking they were the only ones breeding their male mojave to 5 females? Some of these morphs were in a bubble to begin with and those bubbles are bursting (much like the tech stocks did). I know this will be unpopular but these snakes were sold as investments so people bought them as investments, well they all bred them as young as they could and to as many females as they could, so of course co-doms are fall in prices. I do think that MKR burst that bubble maybe prematurely and they drop if far lower than they needed to, but like some have said these snakes "behind the scenes" have been selling at those prices. Many have worried that small name breeders would crash the market, but how many small name breeders have the income to buy 3 BEL and breed them to that many adult females and feed and house all the babies (including the other morphs like clowns, lessers etc..) I think it has been proven now that some of the big investors are in for the quick buck and in the end are much more dangerous to the industry than your average Joe who buys one lesser and breeds it to 3 females. IMO

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Originally Posted by Sputnik

Nothing.... look at the price of pastels!

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that makes me sick. i would hate to spend 5000.00 or even 1500 on an animal and know that if I waited a year I could have gotten one for 500 or 200.00

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Originally Posted by Sputnik

It's lame, and yeah, you wouldn't buy from him and most of us smart enough to keep the market where it should be, won't. BUT, he still sold out didn't he and that is the problem!

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...and if what Ed said was right.....a pro breeder bought them all. The person that bought them knew what they are worth. If someone was selling a brand new Chevy for half of its market value, anyone would snatch it up in a heartbeat too....wouldn't they? Some would....some would ask what is wrong with that truck that makes it so cheap???

People sell stuff for 'below market value' in every business. However, most of this stuff takes place behind the scenes between 'dealers'. In ball pythons, these 'dealers' are pro-breeders and resellers. Advertising publically with a price that is generally paid behind the scenes is rude to the other breeder and the resellers. You don't see car dealers posting what they actually paid for the vehicle that they sold you, do you? You don't see computers going for what they cost to make, do you? Why should you see that with ball pythons?

LMA0....MKR has as much sense as a one-legged man that signs up for a butt kicking contest....

The money will always be in the new morphs and crosses with simple recess staying much more stable than the dom and co dom.

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

...and if what Ed said was right.....a pro breeder bought them all. The person that bought them knew what they are worth. If someone was selling a brand new Chevy for half of its market value, anyone would snatch it up in a heartbeat too....wouldn't they? Some would....some would ask what is wrong with that truck that makes it so cheap???

People sell stuff for 'below market value' in every business. However, most of this stuff takes place behind the scenes between 'dealers'. In ball pythons, these 'dealers' are pro-breeders and resellers. Advertising publically with a price that is generally paid behind the scenes is rude to the other breeder and the resellers. You don't see car dealers posting what they actually paid for the vehicle that they sold you, do you? You don't see computers going for what they cost to make, do you? Why should you see that with ball pythons?

LMA0....MKR has as much sense as a one-legged man that signs up for a butt kicking contest....

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I don't think this guy hurt the market to bad. If what he said is true then only 7 will get out into the public for that price. And they are all Male. He is not selling his females. Which means it is one sided. on one can breed unless they paid market value for a female.

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

...and if what Ed said was right.....a pro breeder bought them all. The person that bought them knew what they are worth. If someone was selling a brand new Chevy for half of its market value, anyone would snatch it up in a heartbeat too....wouldn't they? Some would....some would ask what is wrong with that truck that makes it so cheap???

People sell stuff for 'below market value' in every business. However, most of this stuff takes place behind the scenes between 'dealers'. In ball pythons, these 'dealers' are pro-breeders and resellers. Advertising publically with a price that is generally paid behind the scenes is rude to the other breeder and the resellers. You don't see car dealers posting what they actually paid for the vehicle that they sold you, do you? You don't see computers going for what they cost to make, do you? Why should you see that with ball pythons?

LMA0....MKR has as much sense as a one-legged man that signs up for a butt kicking contest....

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Whoever bought them has the ability to now re-sell them for $1400 each and make a quick buck... difference being it's not at the expense of the overall market and those breeders that make up that market!

And I'll bet $800 shipped that MKR doesn't make it past the first round of the Butt Kicking Championships!

Guys this is a perfect example of how things can work in the market.

MKR drops the price on lessers for 24 hours, sells out, has everyong crying that the sky is falling....now he's sold out....no more lessers for 2500 or mojavies for 800.

Any of you, call up any other large breeder and tell them you want to buy a lesser for 2500 because Joe sold his, so that must be what they are worth. Go ahead, see what those breeders say.

Guess what? The price of lessers just doubled the moment he sold out!

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

that makes me sick. i would hate to spend 5000.00 or even 1500 on an animal and know that if I waited a year I could have gotten one for 500 or 200.00

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My feelings exactly!! I understand a certain drop in price with each season, supply & demand, but this is ridiculous and really sad! Whats to say MKR or someone else isn't holding back 10-20-30 Albinos for example and doing the same thing with recessives in 1-2yrs.

July sale....$500 Albinos....$2000 Pieds....take'em while their hot!

These things are like jewels. You will always have the black market and the pawnshops for them. But to get the true experiance you go to jeweler and get your stuff. To me getting them knowing that the price is totaly off the map cheapens it.

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Originally Posted by Sputnik

It's a highly competative business, for obvious reasons.... you have a huge variety of morphs and what's more is there will be more and more morphs. Ranging from high dollar to affordable morphs for most of us. The turn over is at this point endless.

This market also appeals to a lot of people because these animals don't get huge, are not born tiny and it's hard to find an aggressive ball python. They appeal to all levels of those interested in reptiles. So from a sales point of view, they are a great investment. Not to mention, they look very appealing to the eye seeing the different color morphs.

So when someone comes along and "Dumps" a few certain morphs on a market, it can crash that area of the market if the person doing it is a NAME!

Leaving all those that are working in that area in an almost bankrupt like position. Yes, it is irrisponsible and no, spiders and mojaves are not rare, but they don't deserve to be dumped for less then half their value either!

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Thankyou, great input.
I was just thinking that animals that were worth XXXXX shouldn't be defaced by being XXXX or XXX. my .02