Stopping imports(and a Couple questions)

Has anything been done or is currently being done to try and stop the vast importation of bps from the wild? Even the harvesting of eggs i my opinion is taking from the wild.

I know that all of our snakes ancestors came from the wild but don't u think its time we stop importing now that we seem to have a decent stock in captivity? I know the importer/exporters over in Africa wouldn't like that 2 happen but i mean wow the vast majority of animals sent over here to just perish is ridiculus. do any of u know the exact #'s of imports?

And as a future breeder(hopefully in the next 10-15 years as a hobby mostly) stopping the importation would also raise prices for all bps and hopefully get rid of the Jimmy's out there looking 2 make a quick dollar. and hopefully strengthen the bp hobby.

What do u guys/gals think?


P.S.*- this is to all u breeders... has anyone every purchased a high price morph from u just to have as a pet and not 2 breed in the future?

It will never happen as its a big money position.Yes thousands of ball pythons are imported every year,some die some dont.Another reason why importing will never stop is where do you think some the new morphs come from(Africa).Now onto your breeders question.I do know of a few people who have bought ball python morphs just for pets.

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Originally Posted by KalonjiBP

I know that all of our snakes ancestors came from the wild but don't u think its time we stop importing now that we seem to have a decent stock in captivity? I know the importer/exporters over in Africa wouldn't like that 2 happen but i mean wow the vast majority of animals sent over here to just perish is ridiculus. do any of u know the exact #'s of imports?

And as a future breeder(hopefully in the next 10-15 years as a hobby mostly) stopping the importation would also raise prices for all bps and hopefully get rid of the Jimmy's out there looking 2 make a quick dollar. and hopefully strengthen the bp hobby.

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The BP hobby wouldn't be where it is today if it wasn't for the importation of ball pythons that bring with them fresh genetics. If stopped, you bring a halt to possible new unfound genetic mutations.

I have to ask, the vast majority imported die? Any research to back that up?

If so, I'd like to see it.

Unfortaunately the way I see it is that yes, it would raise the prices on what is currently in the country, but it won't end the Jimmy's and it puts a cap on genetic discoveries waiting to be found.

I'm not a fan of the way they are imported and that to me is the issue, not so much the importing.

That will never happen. How do you think these importers/exporters and breeders make thier money?

i agree with scott, alot of it is in the way some importers treat the snakes. with the proper care imports could be just as good as cb babies(in general). imo, people shopping for the best deal wanting the cheapest prices has fueled the demand for imports even more. alot of people will buy that 20.00 baby and not even shop anywhere else.



vaughn

When would it stop, in my opinion..? When they're extinct in the wild. :(

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

When would it stop, in my opinion..? When they're extinct in the wild. :(

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That's not going to happen.

Ball pythons are an internationally protected species. Their export and import is controlled by an organization called CITES. CITES is responsible for monitoring the wild populations of ball pythons can controlling the number of ball pythons that can be exported from Africa and imported into other countries around the world. These animals cannot be moved across borders without inspections and permits to protect them and their wild populations.

Stopping the exportation of ball pythons from Africa would be a bad thing for ball pythons at this point. The ruralization of Western Africa is causing a population explosion for ball pythons that is turning them into a nuisance animal. If the exports were to stop, the alternative would be for the governments in Ghana, Togo, etc to control their local ball python populations through other means ... which would likely be hunts, burnings, or worse (think rattle snake round ups but with ball pythons). The large scale exportation of ball pythons within the limits set by CITES which monitors their wild population keeps the numbers of ball pythons in the wild at a very healthy and very reasonable limit in order to protect the species as a whole.

Not to mention that the ball python export business is a huge industry over in Africa that employees many people and puts food on the table of a large number of families as well as supplies money to the governments of the West African countries the snakes are being exported from. It is in their best interest to make sure that the business (and money) continues to thrive for as long as possible.

No one is going to let ball pythons go extinct in the wild due to exportation.

-adam

If the animal doesn't have value to the people in Africa(i.e. no one will buy it live for the pet trade) then it is just meat. I believe somewhere on this board is a survey that stated that there were MORE ball pythons in the wild than before.
And if the pet price of ball pythons was driven up by stopping the import the Jimmy's would INCREASE, hoping to make a quick buck. Not decrease. How many people can make money breeding normal ball pythons right now? Not many.
I'd like to see all imported animals conditions and care improved.
Wolfy

I have no problem with Bp's being imported , but I definitely think their standard's should be raised so the Bp's can have a better chance to survive.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

The ruralization of Western Africa is causing a population explosion for ball pythons that is turning them into a nuisance animal.

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Why would they be a nuisance animal? I think I read somewhere that the people appreciate the growing Ball population because it is keeping the rodent population down due to the increased farming in that region. Given a choice between hundreds of Balls or thousands of rats, I think most people would vote for the Balls...

Prehaps not if they're so numerous they obstruct daily activities. Depending on how many there are...

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Why would they be a nuisance animal?

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When you live in parts of a country where cobras and mambas are responsible for 100's of deaths a year, any snake can be a nuisance animal unless people are educated about it and it serves some purpose in their minds.

A lot of cultures that grow up around animals, know what they are and what is safe and what is dangerous. I think the nuisance issue is a non issue really.

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

When you live in parts of a country where cobras and mambas are responsible for 100's of deaths a year, any snake can be a nuisance animal unless people are educated about it and it serves some purpose in their minds.

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I suppose that's true, but with the huge market for Balls in Africa, one would think that everyone there would at least know how to recognize one and know that they're harmless. I can understand if they needed them for food, but I can't imagine too many places seeing them as a nuisance animal unless they are attracting more dangerous snakes like cobras.

I think they do attract cobra's , there was this one show on animal planet that showed a snake trapper useing dead ball pythons for bait. Some of you must of seen this , the whole show was in Miami the owner of the king cobra was careless and it got away. So they called this guy and he caught the cobra with a ball python. it bothered me to see what he used as bait but it worked.

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Originally Posted by emilio

I think they do attract cobra's , there was this one show on animal planet that showed a snake trapper useing dead ball pythons for bait. Some of you must of seen this , the whole show was in Miami the owner of the king cobra was careless and it got away. So they called this guy and he caught the cobra with a ball python. it bothered me to see what he used as bait but it worked.

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Yup, you know what... you 100% correct... some people who own cobras feed balls to them at times. Which does or could make it a nuisance issue... so I stand corrected on that!

Of course, in India cobras are attracted to peoples homes because of rodents. In Africa, you have a double header with them being attracted to both rodents and ball pythons. So yeah it could make ball pythons a nuisance issue to the people living there, but I doubt they fear the ball python!

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Originally Posted by Sputnik

I have to ask, the vast majority imported die? Any research to back that up?

If so, I'd like to see it...............

I'm not a fan of the way they are imported and that to me is the issue, not so much the importing.

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I was not stating a fact just going of of what i though happened to imported balls that get put in homes/or hands of ppl who don't know what there doing and then the snakes end up dying.

Don't get me wrong now I'm all for new morphs so i think it shouldn't be stopped but at least slowed. As many of you have also stated, the way in which they are imported and the standards that they are imported by should be raised.

And as always Adam the bp Priest gave some great information, I never knew about them possibly becoming a possible nuisance. Thats some interesting information.

You guys have some great opinions.

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Originally Posted by Sputnik

Which does or could make it a nuisance issue... so I stand corrected on that!

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I think it's still "could" unless shown otherwise. It still seems to me that a population of harmless snakes capable of keeping the rodent population down would be much more of a benefit than a nuisance.

Do you think there is enough genetic diversity in the US at the moment?


I think it has already been covered in this thread enough, but to take away this moneymaker from the people in these countries would also be kinda harsh.

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Originally Posted by xdeus

I think it's still "could" unless shown otherwise. It still seems to me that a population of harmless snakes capable of keeping the rodent population down would be much more of a benefit than a nuisance.

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Cobras are pretty much a free roaming predator, so they will be there anyway. I'm sure ball pythons contribute somewhat to keeping rodent populations down.


Problem as I see it is, none of us here live there... so we really don't know what it is like to live there day to day through the changing seasons, so I don't think we really know what is an issue for those people and what isn't. We can only debate it. From what I know, fresh clean water is one concern!

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Originally Posted by xdeus

I think it's still "could" unless shown otherwise. It still seems to me that a population of harmless snakes capable of keeping the rodent population down would be much more of a benefit than a nuisance.

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From what I hear, it can get so bad that they are showing up inside of homes, under the hoods of cars, etc ... they are on the verge of "pest" status.

-adam

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Originally Posted by KalonjiBP

what i though happened to imported balls that get put in homes/or hands of ppl who don't know what there doing and then the snakes end up dying.

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You could say that about ANY animal ... birds, dogs, fish, etc .... That is a very PETA-ish train of thought and PETA won't stop at stopping imports ... they won't stop until there are no more pets, zoos, research, etc.

There is good and bad with anything ... the trick is to find the best balance you can and educate educate educate ... it's a lot better solution than stopping importation entirely which could potentially have a profound ecological impact in West Africa as well as hurting an economy.

-adam

what i want to know is... when the heck can we start exporting white tailed deer?? all these starving people can have some of our deer... there's just way too many.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

From what I hear, it can get so bad that they are showing up inside of homes, under the hoods of cars, etc ... they are on the verge of "pest" status.

-adam

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In Andreas Kirschner's book the ball python (1st ed.), he states that wild ball populations seem to prefer (and prosper in) the more open habitat of agricultural areas. It is believed they prefer these habitats due to higher rodent densities among other things. So with more and more land being turned into fields for crops and grazing, we can only expect the BP population size to increase in the future. It is likely that wild ball populations are higher now than they have ever been.

-Evan

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Originally Posted by kzooherpetoculturist

what i want to know is... when the heck can we start exporting white tailed deer?? all these starving people can have some of our deer... there's just way too many.

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Not here in Utah, deer populations are on the decline. We mainly have mule deer, but also a few poputations of white tailed deer too, both of which are getting smaller each year.

-Evan

That is refreshing to hear; that they're not in much danger in the wild. :)

Moving this thread down here. :colbert2:

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Originally Posted by kzooherpetoculturist

what i want to know is... when the heck can we start exporting white tailed deer?? all these starving people can have some of our deer... there's just way too many.

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I second that!!!

How bout sending some rabbits along with them???? Ooops, I forgot they already ruined Australia trying to do that...........

Lol, if you guys in utah want some white-tails- i have hit one with the explorer, and after feeling sick once i got home and dropped off what i had to- i drove back to atleast pull it off the road so it wouldn't get smashed up- that sucker was GONE
now either we have some hungry folks (people i know have hit deer and then eaten them..... apparently 'good eatin')
or
that deer was a freaking monster. i mean it wasn't a tap, i knocked it with half of the front of our '96 explorer doing 50.
these suckers are power feeding or something. its a wonder they havent become carniverous down here. on average i can see as many as 20 on my way home. from town that's an average of one every minute.

that was oober ot- sorry!

note: until someone can dig up some factual smactual sites with prehaps some cute little pie charts or line graphs showing bp populations in urbanizing africa- im so so. i would like to think they're just over populated, but could it probably just the ole' encroaching civilization into wilderness? then again im just guessing with no facts.