Update on Fluffy's clutch + pics

After much consideration, and buying an incubator and preparing it, I have decided to let my female incubate. Her cage environment seems ideal for this according to some articles I read on maternal incubation, and the eggs look good to me, as good as the day I found them, so I think she is doing a good job taking care of them. It has only been 4 days though...

Anyway here are some pics:

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k1...ffyoneggs1.jpg

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k1...ffyoneggs2.jpg

Daytime temps stay in the high 80's close to the eggs, with a warmer basking spot away from them. At night it drops to 80 - high 70's with a warmer basking spot away from them. I mist in the morning and at night and whenever I see the humidity get closer to 50%, and I keep the top of her tank covered with a towel. Before I mist she is usually totally covering the whole clutch, and as I start misting she will expose the top of the clutch, allowing moisture to settle on it.

I hope I am making a good decision for this clutch, and I am keeping my fingers crosssed.

Awsome!!! You deff need to keep us updated!!!! I may be intrestrefd in one when they hatch!!!:gj:

Thanks Justin, I sure hope they make it that far... They have quite a ways to go... :P

Question - are you measuring temps and humidity with a digital thermometer/hygrometer? I see one of those unreliable pet store dials right in front of her. I wouldn't depend on that being accurate.

You bring up a good point... yes those are the cheap ones in her tank, I have been keeping the digital one I have in the incubator while I have been monitoring the conditions in there. I'll move that one into the tank seeing as I have decided to let her keep the eggs.

I hope this turns out well for you. I would be so nervous about leaving the eggs in with her. At least you do have an incubator, so if she looks like she is abandoning them you could get the moved. You definitely need to keep us updated as thing progress.

Fingers crossed for you.

Neil

Oh trust me, I am nervous... but I would be nervous about both methods seeing as I am a first-timer for both.

Thanks for the support :)

2 days later the eggs still look good... :P

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Originally Posted by Rapture

2 days later the eggs still look good... :P

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ha ha...it's gonna be a long haul for you! I'm definitely interested in how this turns out...I hope you keep everyone updated! :)

Correct me if I'm wrong.....but won't this...

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Daytime temps stay in the high 80's close to the eggs, with a warmer basking spot away from them. At night it drops to 80 - high 70's with a warmer basking spot away from them.

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...kill the eggs in a hurry?

How so?

Typically clutches are incubated at 88-90 degrees, so the drop to the upper 70s may be too cool. Of course I have no clue, since I've not researched maternal incubaton, what the temperature drop will do to the developing eggs.

I'm not sure why you would choose maternal incubation, especially considering you have an incubator handy. I wish you luck with the eggs.

One other thing to consider, is the misting. Have you considered what impact that high humidity will have on your female? And also be careful not to mist the eggs. You can kill the eggs by getting coating them in water.

This is going to be a very interesting thread. I wish you good luck , and I'll be checking in on your progress.

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Originally Posted by tigerlily

Typically clutches are incubated at 88-90 degrees, so the drop to the upper 70s may be too cool. Of course I have no clue, since I've not researched maternal incubaton, what the temperature drop will do to the developing eggs.

I'm not sure why you would choose maternal incubation, especially considering you have an incubator handy. I wish you luck with the eggs.

One other thing to consider, is the misting. Have you considered what impact that high humidity will have on your female? And also be careful not to mist the eggs. You can kill the eggs by getting coating them in water.

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From what I read about maternal incubation, one of the most common reasons for it to be unsuccessful is because the keeper tries to keep the enclosure like an incubator. The problem with this is you are not letting the female have any control over the situation. Once it is 90 degrees, she cannot decrease the temperature around the eggs, only increase it. Once the humidity is at 100 percent, she can't decrease it, only increase.

Since I have put the digital thermometer/hygrometer in tank, I have found that the temp is a couple degrees higher than what the non-digital dials read. I have not seen the temp go below 81, and during the day it rises to over 90. Humidity stays around 60 - 90 percent, depending on when I last misted. Also, when I mist I sometimes mist on the snake itself and sometimes just on the glass and bedding. When I mist on the female, she uncovers the eggs. If she were in the wild and it started to rain, she may do the same, I'm not sure.

So far, the eggs still look as good as the day she laid them. Round and white. One in particular is prone to some dimpling, but it doesn't go as far as to cave in, and after a humidity increase, it comes back to a more round form.

As far as the female goes, I am really not sure if the environment is bad for her or not... I'm not sure what kind of humidity Africa has during hatching season... but I would guess there are drier days and wetter days, and she gets that here, too.

But yeah I am just hoping for the best here, and I am doing my best to keep things going well.

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Originally Posted by emilio

This is going to be a very interesting thread. I wish you good luck , and I'll be checking in on your progress.

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Thanks for the support, and I'll see you around.

I don't have any experience with maternal incubation, so if you know what you're doing, go for it.

I would speculate that having such a drop in temperature (my ball pythons have yet to even experience temps in the 70s even during the winter months) would just make the female's job that much harder to regulate the temperature of the eggs. I think I'd sleep easier knowing that the ambient temps in the cage were 82-84 degrees like they are supposed to be anyway, and especially with a female on eggs.

You know that temperature fluctuations result in bad eggs and deformed babies, right?

Yeah, I know about that... and like I said, it doesn't go below 80 and is usually at 81 overnight.

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At night it drops to 80 - high 70's

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That's what I was going by, stated earlier.

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Originally Posted by Rapture

From what I read about maternal incubation, one of the most common reasons for it to be unsuccessful is because the keeper tries to keep the enclosure like an incubator. The problem with this is you are not letting the female have any control over the situation. Once it is 90 degrees, she cannot decrease the temperature around the eggs, only increase it. Once the humidity is at 100 percent, she can't decrease it, only increase.

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Ummm.... How do you increase the humidity once it's 100%? :O

As for temps, do you offer a temperature gradient normally? There is typically a cool and warm side of the tank, to allow for this natural regulation.

I hope this coming across ok, as I am curious about the reasons for going this route. I hope your eggs do ok, I hear they are pretty hardy so best of luck to you. :D

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

That's what I was going by, stated earlier.

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Sorry, that is what the less expensive thermometer read. Since then I have put a digital in.

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Originally Posted by tigerlily

Ummm.... How do you increase the humidity once it's 100%? :O

As for temps, do you offer a temperature gradient normally? There is typically a cool and warm side of the tank, to allow for this natural regulation.

I hope this coming across ok, as I am curious about the reasons for going this route. I hope your eggs do ok, I hear they are pretty hardy so best of luck to you. :D

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Ok it can't go higher than 100 I guess, but you get my point.

And yes, one side is warmer than the other seeing as the UTH is on one side, and when I put a heat lamp on it is over that side also. She is coiled in the middle of the cage, though.

And it's okay, I know a lot of people don't go the maternal incubation route for ball pythons... but for some reason I felt inclined to leave them in there even after spending quite a bit of money on an incubator and preparing it for these eggs... :confuzd:

Good Luck with the eggs... and remember to send one of the hatchlings over here ;) !

Day 9: One of the eggs seems to have a small brown spot on it. I'm not sure if that is new or not. I noticed that today and yesterday the ambient temperature in her tank hasn't been as high as is has gotten previously, so I thought about turning a heat lamp on again, but then I noticed that she has also migrated a few inches to the left, toward the warm end of the tank, so I'm going to leave her be for now. The eggs are still holding their shape, and don't seem to be stuck to each other, either...

I candled 4 out of 5 eggs last night, and they all glowed red and had nice big veins running through them... :)

hey congrats on the clutch. best of luck to ya. man, i cant wait till i can start breeding! lol. you all make me so jealous.

That is so neat; does she leave them and then return and resume incubating? I always thought they just sat there for the duration of incubation.
She is quite a looker; I love the ones with little to no spots.

I have yet to see her leave the eggs, but she has moved herself and the eggs over a little bit toward the warmer side of the tank.

WOO-HOO! I'm really excited :) You gotta call me when they start poppin' out! How long does it normally take!?!? You need to come see Margo! Tell me if you think she looks better.....

52-60 days or more... heh

And yeah I should, and you should come over and see my house and your ex kittys. :P

And your baby ball.

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Originally Posted by Laooda

WOO-HOO! I'm really excited :) You gotta call me when they start poppin' out! How long does it normally take!?!? You need to come see Margo! Tell me if you think she looks better.....

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Hey another Texan in the house!!!! Welcome!!!


Rapture, Im glad the eggs are doing good!!!!!:gj:

"Howdy" LOL! Thanks! "Rapture" got me started on this when my boa got a strange spot.... long story. So did you tell everyone that it's so hot here in Houston, that we don't use heat on our reps?!? ....JOKE....



Yes, Rap.... I do. I miss the lil' fella. (Did you try the brown bag trick?!?) AND BELLA BINGLE! She will tell me if you have not been good to her.... And then, well.... you know that litle hypo boa you like SO MUCH!?!?... lol.

Seriouslly, maybe Tues. pm..... give me a call.

No I haven't done the brown bag thing. I've still just been force feeding him. He had his third meal today. And Bella is fine... one of our CSR's gave me some Frontline for the kittys, and I bought some Omega 3 Fatty acid stuff to see if it will help out her skin.

As for the eggs, it's day 14 and they still look good.

GOOD JOB, "Horton". lmao! ;)

Remind me and I'll send you w/ some of this holistic cat food.... GreAT stuff! Might just clear her up!

How's everything going with the clutch?

Day 17 and no changes really...

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k1...ffyoneggs3.jpg

haha, good girly!! :gj:


I cant wait till theres all these little heads poking out!!

WELL?!?!? This sux, and I don't haft to look at them everyday.... how long till I know if I'm "aunt Laura" !?!?! It's already been 4 months, right!?!? jj/ Serious..... any news!?!?:please:

The eggs positioned on the top of the clutch have been folding in a bit lately, so I have been keeping a conscious eye on the humidity levels. Other than that, no real changes... the eggs are still nice and white, no rotten ones at least. The female went through a shed, but is still incubating her eggs.

Nobody really mentioned it but one of the reasons not to allow maternal incubation is that the entire egg development and laying process is particularly difficult on the mother and takes a lot of her strength (not to mention all the weight she loses). Most would prefer to put those eggs in an incubator and get her eating again right away, instead of subjecting her to the stress of another 60 days, without food and forced to use a massive amount of energy to keep the eggs at optimal temperatures to see them through.

However, that said, you have made your decision and hopefully all works out for the eggs but also for the mother. I would suggest that if you plan to continue breeding at a later date, that you familiarize yourself with artifical incubation and do what's right for your snakes. Best of luck!

Jamie

Isn't this a task that she, and the rest of the female species, is perfectly capable of? I do have an incubator also, that I bought and prepared for artificial incubation, but she wanted those eggs, they are hers. As a first-time breeder I have no experience with either methods of incubation, so I will learn by trial and error. I know that ball pythons are one of the species that we understand exactly what kind of conditions are needed to artificially incubate eggs, and that it is very successful. But I don't believe that just because of that it is not possible for maternal incubation to be successful as well. There are still species of snakes where maternal incubation is common and not looked down upon. I don't think you can really say the decision I have made is wrong as opposed to "familiariing yourself with artifical incubation and doing what's 'right' for your snakes."

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Originally Posted by Rapture

Isn't this a task that she, and the rest of the female species, is perfectly capable of? I do have an incubator also, that I bought and prepared for artificial incubation, but she wanted those eggs, they are hers. As a first-time breeder I have no experience with either methods of incubation, so I will learn by trial and error. I know that ball pythons are one of the species that we understand exactly what kind of conditions are needed to artificially incubate eggs, and that it is very successful. But I don't believe that just because of that it is not possible for maternal incubation to be successful as well. There are still species of snakes where maternal incubation is common and not looked down upon. I don't think you can really say the decision I have made is wrong as opposed to "familiariing yourself with artifical incubation and doing what's 'right' for your snakes."

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Just because she is capable of performing the task doesn't mean that it is what's best for her. When we keep these animals in captivity, its our responsibility to do what is right for them. If they don't need to be subjected to the additional stress of maternal incubation, then why do it? I was merely giving you the reasons for not doing it. She is your snake, and you have to make the decision you think is best. Rock on! :sweeet:

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Originally Posted by Rapture

As a first-time breeder I have no experience with either methods of incubation, so I will learn by trial and error.

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Please don't take this the wrong way, but it borders on ignorance to acknowledge your inexperience and still reject the advice of those with more experience than you. Why run into the error if you don't have to?

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Originally Posted by Rapture

But I don't believe that just because of that it is not possible for maternal incubation to be successful as well.

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Possible, yes...successful, maybe...reliable, not with ball pythons! Maternal incubation in ball pythons evolved to synergize with the conditions found in their native habitat, which we keepers can just barely eek out a simulation of that which they can thrive in. Your reasoning is flawed because you fail to consider the differences between conditions in the wild and conditions in captivity.

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Originally Posted by Rapture

There are still species of snakes where maternal incubation is common and not looked down upon.

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Maybe there are, but ball pythons are not one of them. This statement has no relevence to the arguement you present.

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Originally Posted by Rapture

I don't think you can really say the decision I have made is wrong as opposed to "familiariing yourself with artifical incubation and doing what's 'right' for your snakes."

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I'll go out on a limb and say that the decision you have made may not, whether intentionally or intentionally, have been in the best interests of the mother and the embryos. Being suprised with eggs is one thing, but planning for it and having incubation equipment and not taking advantage of it was not, in my opinion, a good decision with the best interests of the animals in mind.

Before I made this decision I read about both artificial incubation and maternal, and neither one said that the other was a wrong choice.

She's your snake. Do what you want.

The proof of the pudding, as they say, is in the eating. We'll all have our chance to praise you or dump on you when we know the outcome. Best wishes for healthy mom and babies.

Thanks, I hope they do okay.

in the wild does the mum have the luxury of someone taking her eggs and chucking em in aplastic tub?? NO u are allowing her to fulfill what is her natural role in life. If it was not suitable for the mothers to do, natural evolution would have stopped it.

I hope to breed royals this season and I will remove any eggs if I get any as I like has been said want to get the mum feeding again as soon as possible, but if I get several clutches I may try one maternally.

Best of luck mate!!!



Peter

I have been following this thread from day one and find it very interesting. Although I have no experience in the area of breeding, I have come across this article from Jay Martin Reptiles and thought others following this thread may be intersted in it.

http://www.jaymartinreptiles.com/articles/maternal.pdf

BTW, hope everything works out for you Rapture.
Best of luck.

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Originally Posted by RockSolid

I have been following this thread from day one and find it very interesting. Although I have no experience in the area of breeding, I have come across this article from Jay Martin Reptiles and thought others following this thread may be intersted in it.

http://www.jaymartinreptiles.com/articles/maternal.pdf

BTW, hope everything works out for you Rapture.
Best of luck.

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That article points out a benefit for the animal for artificial incubation, but I hardly think beauty and cost savings are beneficial to the eggs or the mom. :confuzd: I wasn't much impressed, but I'm tired and grumpy soooo..... :fim:

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Originally Posted by goldenburm

in the wild does the mum have the luxury of someone taking her eggs and chucking em in aplastic tub?? NO u are allowing her to fulfill what is her natural role in life. If it was not suitable for the mothers to do, natural evolution would have stopped it.

I hope to breed royals this season and I will remove any eggs if I get any as I like has been said want to get the mum feeding again as soon as possible, but if I get several clutches I may try one maternally.

Best of luck mate!!!



Peter

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Peter,

These snakes are not in the wild. They are living in captivity in plastic enclosures. There is no comparison.

Well they might be in a plastic tub but does that make the female any less able to take care of her eggs? But the conditions in the encloser would play apart in the hole thing. There is still some techneq involved in both. I think it will work out, but we will see. I wish you the best of luck.:headbang: