Whoa! I've got to get me a Yellow-Belly!

Check THESE out! The two pied looking ones are Paradox Ivories.

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=32&de=427730

Whoa...those are pretty wild looking...

Those are pretty nice lookin'!! I think it's about time I got me a YB.....


-Evan

Gorgeous snakes! I wonder what causes this paradox thing that happens in different morphs...does anyone know? Just a hit and miss genetic oopsie type thing or something else?

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Gorgeous snakes! I wonder what causes this paradox thing that happens in different morphs...does anyone know? Just a hit and miss genetic oopsie type thing or something else?

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Batman, Robin, and the justice leauge of BP.net........

Does anyone have a picture of just the paradox trait?

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

Does anyone have a picture of just the paradox trait?

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http://www.hmcconsulting.com/gallery/pics/ducks1.jpg

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

http://www.hmcconsulting.com/gallery/pics/ducks1.jpg

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????????

What am I missing here?

paradox, pair of ducks....LOL


Good one Bry!

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

Does anyone have a picture of just the paradox trait?

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There's no such animal.

-adam

Those look like they have the pied gene, I didn't think the paradox gene worked like that. :confused:

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Originally Posted by Wild Bill

Those look like they have the pied gene, I didn't think the paradox gene worked like that. :confused:

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Josh says no pied involved, it's just a paradox ... same thing happen to TSK's super mojave, and countless other morphs that have been hit by the paradox phenomenon.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Josh says no pied involved, it's just a paradox ... same thing happen to TSK's super mojave, and countless other morphs that have been hit by the paradox phenomenon.

-adam

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Cool! :cool: I always have seen the paradox showing up as black bands. Learn something new everyday. ;)

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

There's no such animal.

-adam

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Is it a general name for strange traits?

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

paradox, pair of ducks....LOL


Good one Bry!

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I'm a little slow when it comes to word games....lol.

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Originally Posted by Wild Bill

Cool! :cool: I always have seen the paradox showing up as black bands. Learn something new everyday. ;)

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Does anyone have a pic of this?

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

Is it a general name for strange traits?

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http://www.answers.com/paradox&r=67

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

http://www.answers.com/paradox&r=67

-adam

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Sometimes you a smart (censored).....but that's fine Mr. Funny, "I like Fried Chicken"

I know what paradox means literally......

I was just wondering how the term is used in the ball python world.

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

Sometimes you a smart (censored).....but that's fine Mr. Funny, I like Fried Chicken too.

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Wrong again my friend ... I'm ALWAYS a smart ace ... that's just how I roll.

http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/co...all_python.asp

http://www.esreptiles.com/paradoxAlbino.shtml

http://www.vpi.com/4VPIInventory/VPI...allPicPage.htm

http://www.ballpython.com/morph.php?morph=paradox

http://www.kingsnake.com/scr/paradox2.jpg



-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Wrong again my friend ... I'm ALWAYS a smart ace ... that's just how I roll.

http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/co...all_python.asp

http://www.esreptiles.com/paradoxAlbino.shtml

http://www.vpi.com/4VPIInventory/VPI...allPicPage.htm

http://www.ballpython.com/morph.php?morph=paradox

http://www.kingsnake.com/scr/paradox2.jpg



-adam

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In the long-run, You always prove your helpfulness though! :) Thanks fo the links.....Mike

I can't believe you guys haven't figured it out yet! It's quite obvious that those snakes just have a passion for working on cars! A little Goop oughta clean 'em right up! :P

It says the post has been removed? Does soemone else have another link for it?

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Originally Posted by JLC

I can't believe you guys haven't figured it out yet! It's quite obvious that those snakes just have a passion for working on cars! A little Goop oughta clean 'em right up! :P

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Some of those pics really do look like oil/grease stains.

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

In the long-run, You always prove your helpfulness though! :) Thanks fo the links.....Mike

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The juice is worth the squeeze. ;)

-adam

I don't know about you guy's but I don't find anything cool about the paradox albino.I don't like the black.

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Originally Posted by emilio

I don't know about you guy's but I don't find anything cool about the paradox albino.I don't like the black.

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whatever causes it is probably interesting.....

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

whatever causes it is probably interesting.....

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I don't think it's necessarily an "it". I think "paradox" is just a description used to describe strange, unexplained colorations on a morph. However, most of the time people seem to refer to them with the black smudges on an albino. I'm not so sure these YBs should be called paradox. I think something else is going on with them. Pretty cool, though. They almost got the elusive white-headed pied.

Is a Paradox genetically inheritable, or is it just a non related genetic abberation that shows up in different snakes in different ways and is thus generically labeled paradox?

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Originally Posted by xdeus

I don't think it's necessarily an "it". I think "paradox" is just a description used to describe strange, unexplained colorations on a morph. However, most of the time people seem to refer to them with the black smudges on an albino. I'm not so sure these YBs should be called paradox. I think something else is going on with them. Pretty cool, though. They almost got the elusive white-headed pied.

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One of the most popular theories on paradox balls is that the "paradox" part comes from a "malfunction" in an upper/outer dermal layer ... the "malfunction" sometimes manifests itself as black ink stains, other times as complete pattern ... but the overall belief from the people that I've spoken with is that the causality is the same … just different degrees.

-adam

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

Is a Paradox genetically inheritable, or is it just a non related genetic abberation that shows up in different snakes in different ways and is thus generically labeled paradox?

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So far, it has not been reproducible in any way.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Wild Bill

Those look like they have the pied gene, I didn't think the paradox gene worked like that. :confused:

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by xdeus

I don't think it's necessarily an "it". I think "paradox" is just a description used to describe strange, unexplained colorations on a morph. However, most of the time people seem to refer to them with the black smudges on an albino. I'm not so sure these YBs should be called paradox. I think something else is going on with them. Pretty cool, though. They almost got the elusive white-headed pied.

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The way some breeders seem to use the term--apply the term to any markings/appearances superimposed on a morph that they don’t understand the genetics of.....

I guess you could stretch this definition and say this is an unexplained marking superimposed on an ivory. But it does seem a like a big stretch......and its certainly not a “paradox” in the literal sense of the word.

But as Adam would say...names have a lot of marketing in them too….not just logic or science.....

Though The name "Paradox" seems to apply well to the paradox albino ...How can an animal with the inability to produce melanin have black smudges on it? Now that is a self-contradictory trait/phenomenom!

I don’t think the factors, genetic or otherwise, that causes paradox albinos are the same as though that produce paradox ivories......But I don’t think “Peculiar Ivories", "Anomaly Ivory", or "Irregular Ivory" sound as cool or flow off the tongue as nice as “Paradox Ivory.”

The “Ironic Ivory”….now that might be worth a trademark. :)

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

So far, it has not been reproducible in any way.

-adam

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So Paradox_Albinos usually just beget regular albinos.

Don't know if anyone knows this but.....

Are paradox albinos ever created from albino x albino crosses or do they only show up from het albino x het albino crosses? Or doesnt it matter?

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

One of the most popular theories on paradox balls is that the "paradox" part comes from a "malfunction" in an upper/outer dermal layer ... the "malfunction" sometimes manifests itself as black ink stains, other times as complete pattern ... but the overall belief from the people that I've spoken with is that the causality is the same … just different degrees.

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Of the paradox albinos that have been produced, are there usually just one in a clutch or multiples like the odd pattern ivories? If it was just one, you'd think there was something different at work with the ivories. Do you think ringers are similar in nature to the paradoxes, or is that something completely different?

I think Paradox is a good term when used on white or mostly white snakes like albinos and ivories, and probably BEL if they ever show up on them.... mostly because any DARK marking on a white snake, is "exhibiting inexplicable or contradictory aspects"

Dark markings on a white snake, is definitely contradictory, and as far as "inexplicable", I think we can gather from Adam's comment that they are difficult or impossible to explain (yet).

Why do you think Paradox is a bad word to explain it, or do you agree on white snakes, but just not if the term is thrown around generically instead of people taking a closer look and trying to figure it out.

I imagine a lot of people would call a ringer a paradox marking if it wasnt genetically proveable?

This, among other recent "new" ball morphs, is good news for the crippled YB :carouse:

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

I think Paradox is a good term when used on white or mostly white snakes like albinos and ivories, and probably BEL if they ever show up on them.... mostly because any DARK marking on a white snake, is "exhibiting inexplicable or contradictory aspects"

Dark markings on a white snake, is definitely contradictory, and as far as "inexplicable", I think we can gather from Adam's comment that they are difficult or impossible to explain (yet).

Why do you think Paradox is a bad word to explain it, or do you agree on white snakes, but just not if the term is thrown around generically instead of people taking a closer look and trying to figure it out.

I imagine a lot of people would call a ringer a paradox marking if it wasnt genetically proveable?

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I guess I was thinking very specifically since we know albinos dont make melanin and they have black markings which is a paradox.

I'm not sure what makes ivories white......but you've made a decent case for the use of the term.

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Of the paradox albinos that have been produced, are there usually just one in a clutch or multiples like the odd pattern ivories? If it was just one, you'd think there was something different at work with the ivories. Do you think ringers are similar in nature to the paradoxes, or is that something completely different?

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There have been multiples in a clutch before ... this is really nothing new, just the first time with YB/Ivories.

Ringers are different .... they are WAY more common (even little old me produced a number of ringers this year), and actually in some cases predictable (I knew I would get some for sure this year). There is a consistancy to ringers not only in the color and pattern, but also in the location that is 100% completely different than the paradoxing that occurs.

If you take a good look at the paradox super mojave, it's got the same thing going on as the paradox ivories.

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

I guess you could stretch this definition and say this is an unexplained marking superimposed on an ivory. But it does seem a like a big stretch......and its certainly not a “paradox” in the literal sense of the word.

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From the definition of paradox on answers.com ...

"One exhibiting inexplicable or contradictory aspects"

It has nothing to do with genetics ... It has to do with the fact that every other YB x YB pairing that produces ivories, consistently produces them as a white snake, yellow stripe, brownish hues .... then, an "ivory" is produced with elements of pattern that is contradictory to what the breeder expected and those pattern elements are inexplicable ... paradox seems like the perfect word to me.

Ball python breeders are business people and hobbyists ... not scientists. :banana:

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

I guess I was thinking very specifically since we know albinos dont make melanin and they have black markings which is a paradox.

I'm not sure what makes ivories white......but you've made a decent case for the use of the term.

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I'll take it!~! :)

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

From the definition of paradox on answers.com ...

"One exhibiting inexplicable or contradictory aspects"

It has nothing to do with genetics ... It has to do with the fact that every other YB x YB pairing that produces ivories, consistently produces them as a white snake, yellow stripe, brownish hues .... then, an "ivory" is produced with elements of pattern that is contradictory to what the breeder expected and those pattern elements are inexplicable ... paradox seems like the perfect word to me.

Ball python breeders are business people and hobbyists ... not scientists. :banana:
-adam

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I agree now.
SillySnake started changing my thinking.
And you rammed it home.....

Like I said I think I was thinking very specifically when I wrote that......I didnt see how it was contradictory from a biological/biochemical perspective. I sometimes think at a different level (the molecular level) at first because of my background.

but just because I didnt see how it exactly wasnt contradictory doesnt mean it's not! I wasnt really focusing on just how werid that pattern on an ivory (which is still a pretty new morph to me also). Now if I had hatch it myself.....I dont think I'd have had that mental block....LOL

Anyway I've learned a lot since the beginning of this thread.....when I thought paradox was a specific trait. Thanks for your help.

And your right breeders arent professional scientists.....but if you discover the genetics of a trait and prove a morph to me your an amateur scientist for sure.

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Originally Posted by cueball

This, among other recent "new" ball morphs, is good news for the crippled YB :carouse:

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I don't think this will have much of an impact if it is somehow related to other paradoxes. If it's not genetic and just shows up occasionally, I doubt if people will try to work that into their plans. Now that freaky stripe that was produced... that's made me want to get one. :tongue2:

I think it still gets people excited about YBs though. Between this exposure and the three "different" super stripe types I think YBs will slowly climb back up the ladder. Especially once "everybody" knows what the other half of the super stripe type is. Some know now and I think all will know at the end of this season.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cueball

I think it still gets people excited about YBs though. Between this exposure and the three "different" super stripe types I think YBs will slowly climb back up the ladder. Especially once "everybody" knows what the other half of the super stripe type is. Some know now and I think all will know at the end of this season.

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No publicity is bad publicity, right? LOL

What's a super stripe?

Here are some of the JH's ss. Pretty saucy snake!


http://imageevent.com/royalpythonrep...p1ziqa3.lion_s

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Originally Posted by cueball

Here are some of the JH's ss. Pretty saucy snake!


http://imageevent.com/royalpythonrep...p1ziqa3.lion_s

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I'll take them all. ^_^ Uh...Can anyone lend me $50000?

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Originally Posted by Melicious

Can anyone lend me $50000?

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Sure doll...if you lived in TX :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cueball

I think it still gets people excited about YBs though. Between this exposure and the three "different" super stripe types I think YBs will slowly climb back up the ladder. Especially once "everybody" knows what the other half of the super stripe type is. Some know now and I think all will know at the end of this season.

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What did you mean by other half of the super stripe type?

The super stripe type has been claimed to be a yellow belly(which I can see) crossed with a "secret" ball.

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

What did you mean by other half of the super stripe type?

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The other half is another morph that has been kept a secret so far. Although I'm sure a few people in the know, know. *Cough Adam Cough*

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Originally Posted by xdeus

The other half is another morph that has been kept a secret so far. Although I'm sure a few people in the know, know. *Cough Adam Cough*

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:twisted:

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

:twisted:

-adam

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MD kids are "in the know" http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...thon/loopy.gif