Questions for the General Public

I eventually want to be a Biology/Science teacher in high school and I'm having a dilemma with what I want to teach and what the school district will allow me to teach; especially where evolution is concerned. I'll be the first to state that I am, as people go, confused about my own religious beliefs. Raised Christian, I dabbled in "Wicca" and then parts of the Kaballah, moving into Aleister Crowley's teachings. (I love that man, by the way)!

Anyhoo...I wanted to know what the general public thinks of the idea of gently nudging my students to look at other "alternatives" to the evolution theory. I realize that most would see religious alternatives to be a breach of Seperation of Church and State, however; I find that nurturing my students, and encouraging other ideas is the way to go. I personally have my own questions about evolution. It's unproveable, though a good portion of the science we teach today is unproven, but I find that if I teach them only this(evolution), and do not at least encourage them to test other waters, I wouldn't, as a teacher, be doing my job. I'm of the firm belief that a teacher not only addresses the material they are supposed to address, but also allow the student to mold their own knowledge.

So...I'm not hoping to start a huge argument. I'm simply hoping for some incite into what others would see fit for their offspring to be taught. Fire away!

I'll make it simple... the theory of evolution, just as all science, is based on fact. If my child attended a science class in which the teacher taught anything else besides fact based science, then I would probably pull my child from that class. I'm not opposed to other ideas being taught about religion or philosophy, but that doesn't belong in a science class.

Let me put it this way, the whole point of science is to discover the why's and how's of this world based on tangible facts. If you were to bring up some spiritual based aspect in a scientific forum, you are pretty much dismissing the facts and asking your students to consider ideas based on beliefs which can never be proven.

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Originally Posted by Melicious

Anyhoo...I wanted to know what the general public thinks of the idea of gently nudging my students to look at other "alternatives" to the evolution theory. I realize that most would see religious alternatives to be a breach of Seperation of Church and State, however; I find that nurturing my students, and encouraging other ideas is the way to go. I personally have my own questions about evolution. It's unproveable, though a good portion of the science we teach today is unproven, but I find that if I teach them only this(evolution), and do not at least encourage them to test other waters, I wouldn't, as a teacher, be doing my job.

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Test other waters.....like religous waters? Evolution is currently the only scientifically accepted theory...are there problems with it...sure..the horse thing in the other thread...doesnt discount Darwinism.....just like the recent finding published in nature that RNA can act as a molecule of intergenerational heredity doesnt show that DNA is not the main molecule of hereditary.

What are you going to teach? The criticism of Darwin's theory? Most of these if you dig a little deep enough can be quickly dismissed.

Also no ideas are ever proven in science.....scientific knowledge by defination is tenative at best..There's always so uncertainy involved....I recommend taking a philosophy of science course. To wet your appetite check out this article on the ten myths of science.....http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...01/ai_n8733931

Do we teach alternatives to plate tectonics in geology classes? To what we know about the age of the earth? NO, we teach our best scientific understanding of it.

I'll compromise you with this way....if your going to teach your so called criticisms of evolution, you must also teach the many criticism of intelligent design. And you'll have to teach them just as well.....so the students can decide for themselves so to speak.

Also I'm no lawyer but because of Dover, teaching any intelligent design in PA would probably be against the law.

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Originally Posted by xdeus

I'll make it simple... the theory of evolution, just as all science, is based on fact. If my child attended a science class in which the teacher taught anything else besides fact based science, then I would probably pull my child from that class. I'm not opposed to other ideas being taught about religion or philosophy, but that doesn't belong in a science class.

Let me put it this way, the whole point of science is to discover the why's and how's of this world based on tangible facts. If you were to bring up some spiritual based aspect in a scientific forum, you are pretty much dismissing the facts and asking your students to consider ideas based on beliefs which can never be proven.

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To be correct....evolution as a matter of the geologic/fossial record and a number of field studies is a fact.....facts are based on evidence, data

The theory of evolution by natural selection is a theory......but the word theory to natural scientists mean a very, very specific thing

Melicious......thanks for arguing in a mature fashion unlike the other person in some other thread......lol

science is my best subject,but evolution just buckles whats left of my mind,and i'll probaly fail biology.

Mendel: I don't want to teach them any criticisms. I think that would be overstepping my rights as a teacher, however, I would expect other teachers to nudge my students to look, on their own time, at other alternatives. To broach the fact that not all people agree with evolution, and that there are other, interesting "theories" in which we, and the rest of the "animal" kingdom came into being.

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Originally Posted by python kid

we evolved from monkeys that explains why were so stupid we still think and have the brain sizes of monkeys

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That's uncalled for. Please, if you wish to post in the thread I created, do so with a much more respectful textual tone. I don't appreciate the childish remarks. This is supposed to be an intellectual discussion about what is appropriate for the educators of the world, to teach to our youth. What's acceptable...

I wonder, from the tone in your text, whether or not you were graced with decent educators or not.

sorry mam,i was just taught a different way in school,im really not a bad kid,i just don't understand evolution

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Originally Posted by Melicious

Mendel: I don't want to teach them any criticisms. I think that would be overstepping my rights as a teacher, however, I would expect other teachers to nudge my students to look, on their own time, at other alternatives. To broach the fact that not all people agree with evolution, and that there are other, interesting "theories" in which we, and the rest of the "animal" kingdom came into being.

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What we know about science education however, says that you need to teach and present evidence to students to make them understand scientific ideas.....

There is no current data/evidence for any of the other "theories" you speak of Melanie......all the ID people have are criticisms of Darwinism.....

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Originally Posted by Melicious

I wonder, from the tone in your text, whether or not you were graced with decent educators or not.

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Thumbs up!

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Originally Posted by python kid

sorry mam,i was just taught a different way in school,im really not a bad kid,i just don't understand evolution

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Googled from the Scholar Section. You also might want to check out Lexus Nexus and other databases.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=...oe=UTF-8&hl=en

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

What we know about science education however, says that you need to teach and present evidence to students to make them understand scientific ideas.....

There is no current data/evidence for any of the other "theories" you speak of Melanie......all the ID people have are criticisms of Darwinism.....

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Any theory of creation/evolution/mass existence has its large, even growing holes. Every day scientists are learning that their theories are falling by the wayside, and as an aspiring teacher, I will have to teach my students the same, base information. What sort of damage am I doing to my students by allowing these yesteryear bits of information to get into their heads? You're an intelligent man, you've done your research, you didn't allow the teaching of your high school teacher to stick with you and just...sit there. You went out and discovered. I have this feeling that my own students will not be so vigilent in their desire for my knowledge.

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

To be correct....evolution as a matter of the geologic/fossial record and a number of field studies is a fact.....facts are based on evidence, data

The theory of evolution by natural selection is a theory......but the word theory to natural scientists mean a very, very specific thing

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Thanks for clarifying that. My point was that even scientific theory is based on facts and data, and not just an assumption from someone that wants to fit their belief. I think a big problem with creationists is that they get hung up with the word "theory", but unfortunately the word isn't as clear as it should be.

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Thanks for clarifying that. My point was that even scientific theory is based on facts and data, and not just an assumption from someone that wants to fit their belief. I think a big problem with creationists is that they get hung up with the word "theory", but unfortunately the word isn't as clear as it should be.

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And I'd definitely agree with you on the fact that in scientific terms, a theory is based off of facts, however; even Merriam-Webster makes the claim that theory is also a speculation. Most of your common, run-of-the-mill members of the public see it as speculation, that is not necessarily based off of fact.

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Originally Posted by Melicious

And I'd definitely agree with you on the fact that in scientific terms, a theory is based off of facts, however; even Merriam-Webster makes the claim that theory is also a speculation. Most of your common, run-of-the-mill members of the public see it as speculation, that is not necessarily based off of fact.

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A theory is based off data, evidence, and inferences.....sorry if I made that confusing.....

Melanie.....I really dont think you full grasp the concept of how "theory" is being used in the natural sciences...

You said theories....are constantly being overturned every day in science.....this is simply not true.....explanations, models, hypotheses, are often frequenetly proven false, rejected as wrong, or tweaked.....but theories are rarely "overturned"......even when they are overturned it more like they are modified.

PS>theories dont "mature" to become laws of science eithier

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

A theory is based off data, evidence, and inferences.....sorry if I made that confusing.....

Melanie.....I really dont think you full grasp the concept of how "theory" is being used in the natural sciences...

You said theories....are constantly being overturned every day in science.....this is simply not true.....explanations, models, hypotheses, are often frequenetly proven false, rejected as wrong, or tweaked.....but theories are rarely "overturned"......even when they are overturned it more like they are modified.

PS>theories dont "mature" to become laws of science eithier

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That was my fault. I was typing and then thinking...bad idea. I do, however, know the difference.

Not to avoid another mistake, but I wanted to lean toward the subject I originally wanted to address:

As a teacher, someone that might end up educating one of your children, would you disapprove of my not teaching other ideas of how we came to be, but suggesting that your child, under your supervision or under their own desire to learn more, look at alternatives?

RANT AHEAD: this thread seemed kinda near and dear to me.

1.) If you're going to wander off into other waters that you cant prove with fact, unlike evolution- which can be a very plausable theory, you dont want to be a high school teacher.
2.)When did you graduate? last time i checked (um... 6 months ago...) most 'kids' dont give a *darn* in science class. or any class for that matter. There's no valour in most public schools you're day dreaming about. Dont get me wrong, but they wont be stary eyed wonders that love you for opening doors. Its going to be heartache and hard work just to get many of them to pass. (Hence the fact that i respect all teachers.)
3.)Be a college professor. and write well. then when the college wines and dines you for getting them publicity for your... theories ... etc.. then you can pretty much tell the students what ever the ...explicit... you want...

This seems kinda cold, but i just want to shake you into realizing that i just graduated. i just sat in classes full of Idiots, litterally, that cheated and whined their way into their diploma. I almost failed HS because my math is so poor. Do you know what it feels like to bust your arse 18 weeks straight and know that some air-headed idiot who begged teachers for their D's are going to graduate and you may sit on the sidelines when in every other class you've made B+ to A+ and never cheated your way into a grade. That's what HS students are worried about. I could have cared less if my teacher taught wicca or chemistry. just so long as what was required for me to learn by the state was taught and i fairly graded, i didnt care.

ALSO YOU WILL HAVE A STATE DICTATED LESSONS YOU HAVE TO TEACH.
if you can find the time to finish all of that and then get into your own theories.... good luck.

Bleh. that said
for my kids, i want them to be presented with *ALL* the information the STATE requires. i would request that my children *not* be taught alternatives, because usually they get tied into that teacher's beliefs and to chuff(anyone in general, not just the thread poster-interesting topic btw) at me because i just sat in classes with it put in my face not six months ago. My kids would be of HS age, and i would assume that having been a parent for 15 years or so i would have encouraged my children to look for 'alternatives' i guess to what ever popped into their little heads. i would also teach them the value of seeking MULTIPLE opinions and to take a grain of salt with things they read/hear. I dont need a teacher to put their 'theory/ideas' into my kids heads and would not appreciate it. Especially if it was a lot of lightly threaded alternative religion/science that relies mostly on personal opinion and not on tried and practiced science.

My father is a teacher, and he teaches FUN math. Algebra and geometry to be exact. I actually talked to him about this, and however much we agree, he stated this: Melanie, you can't tell them about these other ideas on our existence, but you can encourage them to look into them. Hell, make it an extra-credit project.

I'm a junior in college, and I just changed my major, so I'll be in college for a while. I know about these lazy students, and they are the driving force behind my wanting to teach. If I can get to these students, I've got it made. It'll take great amounts of dedication, frustration, etc, but I'm willing to give it a go. That, and if I can get Ophelia out from under my fingers, that'll be good too. ^_^

I just find it to be a shame that so many people want to discourage teachers from encouraging their own students to continue their education even after classes end. I know that a lot of people, especially parents, don't like their students learning about evolution. It goes against their own beliefs. I, however; don't want to teach them these alternative beliefs, but I would definitely want to encourage their own learning. What harm is in that?

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Originally Posted by Melicious

My father is a teacher, and he teaches FUN math. Algebra and geometry to be exact. I actually talked to him about this, and however much we agree, he stated this: Melanie, you can't tell them about these other ideas on our existence, but you can encourage them to look into them. Hell, make it an extra-credit project.

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Originally Posted by Melicious

As a teacher, someone that might end up educating one of your children, would you disapprove of my not teaching other ideas of how we came to be, but suggesting that your child, under your supervision or under their own desire to learn more, look at alternatives?

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Originally Posted by Melicious

I just find it to be a shame that so many people want to discourage teachers from encouraging their own students to continue their education even after classes end. I know that a lot of people, especially parents, don't like their students learning about evolution. It goes against their own beliefs. I, however; don't want to teach them these alternative beliefs, but I would definitely want to encourage their own learning. What harm is in that?

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As a science teacher your job as a professional is to promote scientific education, scientific ideas....your alternative ideas are not alternative scientific ideas!

telling them to look for alternatives and giving extra-credit which can determine their grades will just dumb your class down......

A lot of scientific ideas go against people's beleifs not just evolution......will you humor their beleifs or only yours?

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Originally Posted by Melicious

I, however; don't want to teach them these alternative beliefs, but I would definitely want to encourage their own learning. What harm is in that?

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Why would a science teacher try to encourage their students to learn about something that wasn't based on fact? If you're having such a problem with this, why don't you plan on teaching something other than science?

I know about these lazy students, and they are the driving force behind my wanting to teach.

That is a goal of mine, but that is why im going for a PhD in english. Im only willing to help those that want it. Really Want It.

I noticed you mentioned dabbling in Wicca, i hate to rip on you, because you come off as a really dedicated and nice person, but Wicca isnt a science. Neither is Christianity. We can flim flam all day and night about it, but what would wicca/alternative ideas have to do with science. What sense does it make for me to say "Im a christian and a yellow dog democrat. I will be teaching your english today.. Putting in opinions with something professional where you're giving your knowledge to others isnt... good. As as student i would want to know that you're a Science Teacher. Not a Wiccan.
just an example i could glean from your post.

I get the vibe you want to give.... alternative 'views' not just alternative science.

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Why would a science teacher try to encourage their students to learn about something that wasn't based on fact? If you're having such a problem with this, why don't you plan on teaching something other than science?

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LOL Scientific Method! I mean. All grade school science points back to it.

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Originally Posted by Melicious

I eventually want to be a Biology/Science teacher in high school and I'm having a dilemma with what I want to teach and what the school district will allow me to teach; especially where evolution is concerned. I'll be the first to state that I am, as people go, confused about my own religious beliefs. Raised Christian, I dabbled in "Wicca" and then parts of the Kaballah, moving into Aleister Crowley's teachings. (I love that man, by the way)!

Anyhoo...I wanted to know what the general public thinks of the idea of gently nudging my students to look at other "alternatives" to the evolution theory. I realize that most would see religious alternatives to be a breach of Seperation of Church and State, however; I find that nurturing my students, and encouraging other ideas is the way to go. I personally have my own questions about evolution. It's unproveable, though a good portion of the science we teach today is unproven, but I find that if I teach them only this(evolution), and do not at least encourage them to test other waters, I wouldn't, as a teacher, be doing my job. I'm of the firm belief that a teacher not only addresses the material they are supposed to address, but also allow the student to mold their own knowledge.

So...I'm not hoping to start a huge argument. I'm simply hoping for some incite into what others would see fit for their offspring to be taught. Fire away!

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I read this whole thread and will comment on this first statement. First there is a reason church, religion and the classroom are being kept seperate. Not everyone holds your values and religious beliefs and having them explore "alternatives" for school work is a violation of their parents trust in you. You as a teacher are expected to stick to approved teaching materials. It is the PARENTS choice to teach their child anything beyond the classroom curriculum. You will live a very short life as a teacher if you plan on violating that trust. School is not the place to use your class as a captive audience to "push" other religions.

and a one-two punch from Mr. Wild Bill.
Cirriculum THAT was the word i kept beating around but couldnt find.
That was clean and concise.

I would keep religious beliefs out of it; there are way too many religions and each seems to have tis own set of beliefs and "facts" regarding creation; personally, I am all for evolution, as facts and hard evidence are again and again proving it and backing it up; I am not much for fanciful tales (at least, not believing them; reading them is fun!)

There seems to be more information that I've read that refutes evolution, however; I have "faith" in my collegues to do what's right and find real, hard evidence. It seems that these continual claims concerning evolution prove false.


I just want my students to know that there are other beliefs/ideals/"theories." I won't teach them in school. I simply want to open the window for free learning.

Interestingly enough if you do go ahead and get your degree in teaching( I'm assuming your going for a Secondary Education degree), than why not consider teaching Biology and Science as well as philosophy? Yes, many high schools have an intro to philosophy course. If the one you’d work at does not than it’s not at all too difficult to approach your supervisors and work toward getting a class started. This may allow you to allow your students to approach different topics in different ways. You would also be able to more liberally involve science with religion as philosophical beliefs.



Then again I’m just a P.E teacher :D

I agree with everything Wild Bill said, plus I will go on to add that teens already think of alternative ideas, and you can trust me on that. I have a 15 yr old who is very social, so I have a lot of teens in my house at any given time. There is nothing you could possibly suggest in a class setting that they have not already thought of, looked into, discussed with friends, etc. Teens have extremely active minds, and they are very interested in learning alternative theories.
As a teacher, you would lend credence to any theories you supported, that's just a fact of life. Leave it to parents to guide their children, or believe me, they will find support among their peers if it's something they are serious about.

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Originally Posted by Wild Bill

I read this whole thread and will comment on this first statement. First there is a reason church, religion and the classroom are being kept seperate. Not everyone holds your values and religious beliefs and having them explore "alternatives" for school work is a violation of their parents trust in you. You as a teacher are expected to stick to approved teaching materials. It is the PARENTS choice to teach their child anything beyond the classroom curriculum. You will live a very short life as a teacher if you plan on violating that trust. School is not the place to use your class as a captive audience to "push" other religions.

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Unfortunately we cant always rely on state science standards........some states have very poor science standards. Kansas has rewritten the defination of science to include non-naturalistic explanations etc......Pretty bold for a group of politicians that have no experience as scientists......

Thomas Fordam foundation (a very conservative foundation) rated gave them a F in science standards...... http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2005/de..._last_science/

I'm with Mendel on this one...

Teaching theology or even encouraging it in a science class completely undermines the legitimacy of the scientific fact that you are supposed to be teaching the class.

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Originally Posted by Melicious

There seems to be more information that I've read that refutes evolution, however; I have "faith" in my collegues to do what's right and find real, hard evidence. It seems that these continual claims concerning evolution prove false.

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Would you please point me to any unbiased information that refutes evolution? By unbiased I mean anything based on fact that isn't associated with a religious based organization. And exactly who or how did they prove evolution false?

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And exactly who or how did they prove evolution false?

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Because the bible said the earth was created in however many days.

I had a heated conversation with a girl who was convinced that dinosaur bones were fake and placed on earth by the devil in order to lure non-believers to hell. WOW!

I guess that would just ruin a trip to the Museum of Natural History, now wouldn't it!

Hey folks glad to see that things are being kept pretty civil so far given the nature of the thread. My hats off to you! I hope it continues to remain in such fashion and hopefully no one will have to bring out the frozen Salmon. :gj:

I hope this isn't too far off the point of the question here, but I'd say the best thing to do for all parties for a teacher of any subject is to teach kids to research. How to find information. Not guide them towards what kind of information to find so much as learn how to find out what they want to know. Does that make sense? Teach them how to learn.

It just seems to me like teaching kids to memorize dates and facts and names isn't really as useful as teaching them how to find dates and facts and names etc and so on. It's a skill they can use for anything. Religion, science, you name it. Nudge them to think rather than what to think about. Encourage them to ask questions and find answers, and compare notes. They'll find where they're goin on their own, they just need the skills to do it. Like you said, available information is changing all the time. Teach them how to keep up with it.

Stick with the science, not straying into religious topics as I'm a strong believer in separation of Church and State, but keep in mind that these are skills that they can use to find the spiritual path that's right for them, look up health information, find out how to learn about an animal before getting one, study up on politics... Anything! Focus on teaching them how to learn and research will be doing them a huge favor in the longrun on any subject. I certainly wish I'd learned these skills sooner!

Just my :twocents:.

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Originally Posted by Melicious

I just want my students to know that there are other beliefs/ideals/"theories." I won't teach them in school. I simply want to open the window for free learning.

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Once again, that is not your responsibility with OTHER PEOPLES children. We as parents still have rights.

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Originally Posted by Wild Bill

I read this whole thread and will comment on this first statement. First there is a reason church, religion and the classroom are being kept seperate. Not everyone holds your values and religious beliefs and having them explore "alternatives" for school work is a violation of their parents trust in you. You as a teacher are expected to stick to approved teaching materials. It is the PARENTS choice to teach their child anything beyond the classroom curriculum. You will live a very short life as a teacher if you plan on violating that trust. School is not the place to use your class as a captive audience to "push" other religions.

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I quoted Bill because he said it best, and I agree with Bill's look on this.

I am a teacher, of special ed. students, usually I work in behavior ed. in fact... but let me say this.. from my experience, you are not paid to teach other ppls kids stuff that is NOT in the text books, and most schools/employers that would hire a teacher are not going to let you teach outside of the text books, in fact, if you do, and a student and/or parent gets upset about a teacher teaching thier own religious beliefs/ideas, not having anything to do with class text...you get wrote up and canned if you do it enough, because you are then infringing on others rights and beliefs; opening up the school for possible lawsuit. Bottom line, stick to the school text books if you want to make it as a teacher in normal public schools. Using extra credit to get them to learn/research religious ideas is also infringing on parents/students own beliefs. Watch what you are doing if you plan on remaining a teacher for long. If you would like to include religious under tone in your education to students, do it in a place that caters to that...a private school usually funded or run by a religious group. That is where it is OK, cause obviously, they are in such a school and thats what thier parents want..however, they also will not allow you to teach stuff not within thier text on religion.

As a parent, if a teacher did as you are suggesting you might do, would really really tick me off, so much so that I would go to the school superintendant and complain, and even more so, that I would confront you and give you an ear full..in fact, I have gone to the superintendant about this same type of thing just this past year. My daughters teacher was suppose to be teaching science, not religion in class. SO was my daughters wood shop teacher, he was suppose to be teaching wood shop...not christianity. Know what happened? They are no longer employees for this coming school year, wanna know why... cause I was not the only parent ticked that thier child was being taught religious propaganda while attending a public school, who is not in charge of her religious "training", they are only responsible for providing a basic education.... if I wanted my child to learn about religion, I certainly would have pulled the big cash amount out of my arse and paid it to the local catholic private school... furthermore, I have even complained to the school regarding songs chosen by a choir teacher, which all were indeed religious type songs... not good either. I am one of those that yell for separation of church, religion and classroom... why? Because it is not a teachers business to teach my children anything to do with religion..period..it is that simple.

I'll start out slow and work my way up/down. *I just woke up, so it'll be a few posts before I answer everyone.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Because the bible said the earth was created in however many days.

I had a heated conversation with a girl who was convinced that dinosaur bones were fake and placed on earth by the devil in order to lure non-believers to hell. WOW!

I guess that would just ruin a trip to the Museum of Natural History, now wouldn't it!

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Perhaps you're only discussing this one girl, but personally speaking, I'm not Christian. I don't believe in the Bible. I see it as a religious text book to be taken with a grain of salt as I do text books in science class. ^_^

Dinosaur bones are real and fossils are real. I lived in Texas for Seventeen-and-a-half years and everyday I brought home a new bucket of fossils. Oh! And I think the devil is a fabrication of the Christian religion to give solidarity to the idea of evil. Evil exists, but there need not be a devil to influence it. Humans are already doing well without a devil. ^_^

Medusa probably hit closest to home. I don't envision myself standing at my "pulpit" with my hands raised high screaming at my students, "Come to God, children! This mockery of Christ will send you to hell!" I simply want to encourage their own research. Whether they agree with/disagree with/aren't sure about, evolution is their own deal. I would like them to understand that it's okay to look at other options, further understand evolution, and if they stumble upon a creationist story and that fits dearer to their heart, then so be it.

I just find that if I encourage them to look at other options, not necessarily point them in the right direction, they might learn a little better. I can, however; envision myself standing in front of my class(not behind a podium), and stating very simply: Evolution is the accepted norm for our coming into exist, however; evolution isn't completely tried and true, and I encourage you to look at other scientific and otherwise "theories." (Oh, and yes, I love my quote hand movements)! I encourage you all to look through LexusNexus, science journals; scholarly sources are your best bet. Oh, and Matt, you can take Ody out. (Oh yes! I will have snakes in my classroom).

So...I don't want to teach them religion. I don't want to teach them to be religious. I don't even want to mention the word God. I simply want to let them know that there are other options out there, whether scientific or otherwise. ^_^ I want to encourage that they learn outside of the classroom. That's all. Whether it's evolution or the stem cell research going on.

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Originally Posted by Jeanne

I quoted Bill because he said it best, and I agree with Bill's look on this.

I am a teacher, of special ed. students, usually I work in behavior ed. in fact... but let me say this.. from my experience, you are not paid to teach other ppls kids stuff that is NOT in the text books, and most schools/employers that would hire a teacher are not going to let you teach outside of the text books, in fact, if you do, and a student and/or parent gets upset about a teacher teaching thier own religious beliefs/ideas, not having anything to do with class text...you get wrote up and canned if you do it enough, because you are then infringing on others rights and beliefs; opening up the school for possible lawsuit. Bottom line, stick to the school text books if you want to make it as a teacher in normal public schools. Using extra credit to get them to learn/research religious ideas is also infringing on parents/students own beliefs. Watch what you are doing if you plan on remaining a teacher for long. If you would like to include religious under tone in your education to students, do it in a place that caters to that...a private school usually funded or run by a religious group. That is where it is OK, cause obviously, they are in such a school and thats what thier parents want..however, they also will not allow you to teach stuff not within thier text on religion.

As a parent, if a teacher did as you are suggesting you might do, would really really tick me off, so much so that I would go to the school superintendant and complain, and even more so, that I would confront you and give you an ear full..in fact, I have gone to the superintendant about this same type of thing just this past year. My daughters teacher was suppose to be teaching science, not religion in class. SO was my daughters wood shop teacher, he was suppose to be teaching wood shop...not christianity. Know what happened? They are no longer employees for this coming school year, wanna know why... cause I was not the only parent ticked that thier child was being taught religious propaganda while attending a public school, who is not in charge of her religious "training", they are only responsible for providing a basic education.... if I wanted my child to learn about religion, I certainly would have pulled the big cash amount out of my arse and paid it to the local catholic private school... furthermore, I have even complained to the school regarding songs chosen by a choir teacher, which all were indeed religious type songs... not good either. I am one of those that yell for separation of church, religion and classroom... why? Because it is not a teachers business to teach my children anything to do with religion..period..it is that simple.

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And Jeanne, you're one of those parents that would probably have me hung. ^_^ Not because I was bashing Bible or Quran, or any other religious text down your child's throat, but because I would encourage your child to look behind the text book and look at other options.

By the way: I was one of those choir students that sang those religious songs. I didn't agree with them, I didn't like their message, but I adored my choir director and I loved the arrangements. We prayed before every concert and every event and no one ever complained. For seven years I prayed, and for seven years I loved choir more and more. My school conducts/ed Baccaloriate in the auditorium, we pray at football games and other sporting events.

***Minor setback in my post. Cable guy's here! I'll finish this asap.

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Originally Posted by Melicious

I'll start out slow and work my way up/down. *I just woke up, so it'll be a few posts before I answer everyone.



Perhaps you're only discussing this one girl, but personally speaking, I'm not Christian. I don't believe in the Bible. I see it as a religious text book to be taken with a grain of salt as I do text books in science class. ^_^

Dinosaur bones are real and fossils are real. I lived in Texas for Seventeen-and-a-half years and everyday I brought home a new bucket of fossils. Oh! And I think the devil is a fabrication of the Christian religion to give solidarity to the idea of evil. Evil exists, but there need not be a devil to influence it. Humans are already doing well without a devil. ^_^

Medusa probably hit closest to home. I don't envision myself standing at my "pulpit" with my hands raised high screaming at my students, "Come to God, children! This mockery of Christ will send you to hell!" I simply want to encourage their own research. Whether they agree with/disagree with/aren't sure about, evolution is their own deal. I would like them to understand that it's okay to look at other options, further understand evolution, and if they stumble upon a creationist story and that fits dearer to their heart, then so be it.

I just find that if I encourage them to look at other options, not necessarily point them in the right direction, they might learn a little better. I can, however; envision myself standing in front of my class(not behind a podium), and stating very simply: Evolution is the accepted norm for our coming into exist, however; evolution isn't completely tried and true, and I encourage you to look at other scientific and otherwise "theories." (Oh, and yes, I love my quote hand movements)! I encourage you all to look through LexusNexus, science journals; scholarly sources are your best bet. Oh, and Matt, you can take Ody out. (Oh yes! I will have snakes in my classroom).

So...I don't want to teach them religion. I don't want to teach them to be religious. I don't even want to mention the word God. I simply want to let them know that there are other options out there, whether scientific or otherwise. ^_^ I want to encourage that they learn outside of the classroom. That's all. Whether it's evolution or the stem cell research going on.

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Once again, that is not your job!! You need to learn how to keep business and your personal life seperate. It doesn't matter how you word it or how you bring it up. It doesn't belong in the classroom. If you taught at a school and incouraged anything but the curriculum for the class to my children we would have a serious problem. I will not ever expect anyone else to learn about my religion why should you be able to "encourage" them to "learn" anything else? It is not your choice!!!

So...my job, in your eyes, as a teacher, is to regurgitate what the book says and not encourage independent thought. Am I right?

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Originally Posted by Melicious

I see it as a religious text book to be taken with a grain of salt as I do text books in science class. ^_^

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If it is school text books you take with a grain of salt as you do the bible..then maybe you should reconsider going into the education career at all, because bottom line, school text books are what you will be teaching from. How and why would you even attempt to teach something you take with a grain of salt?

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Originally Posted by Melicious

Medusa probably hit closest to home. I don't envision myself standing at my "pulpit" with my hands raised high screaming at my students, "Come to God, children! This mockery of Christ will send you to hell!" I simply want to encourage their own research. Whether they agree with/disagree with/aren't sure about, evolution is their own deal. I would like them to understand that it's okay to look at other options, further understand evolution, and if they stumble upon a creationist story and that fits dearer to their heart, then so be it.

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Letting students learn that there are other ideas out there is ok, however, giving them any type of religious "training/learning" is still wrong. You would do well to remember to keep religion out of science. There are always gonna be ppl out there and students who dont want religious instruction, and even hinting on the "other" religious stuff will cause a stir b/c there is always gonna be someone who feels you are infringing on thier rights/beliefs...

here's how i look at it (coming from a future bio/chem teacher)...
you teach whats in your curriculum. personally i think evolution is full of holes so i plan on giving 'disclaimer' that it truly is the 'theory' of evolution. i don't think anyone can deny that we're all changing, evolving, adapting, whatever you want to call it... it's the beginnings that just dont add up.
that said, evolution is very important to learn in terms of general biology!

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Originally Posted by Melicious

And Jeanne, you're one of those parents that would probably have me hung. ^_^ Not because I was bashing Bible or Quran, or any other religious text down your child's throat, but because I would encourage your child to look behind the text book and look at other options.

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You are right on your assessment there, only because it is not your business nor your responsibility or any other teacher/offical in a school to teach my children or other ppls children about religion. Doing so over steps your boundry lines as an educator... it has nothing to do with "encouraging my child to look behind the text book and look at other options", encouraging children to do so is good in many ways, I do so here at home... however, it also hinges on the subject of the matter. If the subject is one such as religion being taught in a school, your right, I am gonna have a fit, right along with my 14 year old daughter and wait for the district to bar-b-que your contract in favor of a teacher who will stick to the text book.

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Originally Posted by Melicious

So...my job, in your eyes, as a teacher, is to regurgitate what the book says and not encourage independent thought. Am I right?

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Your job as a teacher/educator, is to do nothing but teach whats in the text book, in whatever way neccessary to get the kids attention and willingness to learn (that in itself is hard, try it first before you try teaching religious stuff)..... it has been done this way for a long time.... go ahead and encourage independant thought, however, do not teach religious propaganda.

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Originally Posted by Jeanne

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Originally Posted by Melicious

I see it as a religious text book to be taken with a grain of salt as I do text books in science class. ^_^

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If it is school text books you take with a grain of salt as you do the bible..then maybe you should reconsider going into the education career at all, because bottom line, school text books are what you will be teaching from. How and why would you even attempt to teach something you take with a grain of salt?

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Originally Posted by Melicious

Medusa probably hit closest to home. I don't envision myself standing at my "pulpit" with my hands raised high screaming at my students, "Come to God, children! This mockery of Christ will send you to hell!" I simply want to encourage their own research. Whether they agree with/disagree with/aren't sure about, evolution is their own deal. I would like them to understand that it's okay to look at other options, further understand evolution, and if they stumble upon a creationist story and that fits dearer to their heart, then so be it.

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Letting students learn that there are other ideas out there is ok, however, giving them any type of religious "training/learning" is still wrong. You would do well to remember to keep religion out of science. There are always gonna be ppl out there and students who dont want religious instruction, and even hinting on the "other" religious stuff will cause a stir b/c there is always gonna be someone who feels you are infrining on thier rights/beliefs...

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That's basically what I just stated. I don't want to sit at my pulpit and preach about God. I spent far too much dealing with that from my own father to want to do that to anyone else. (Yeah...at about fifteen, because I was dabbling into Wicca/Paganesque religions, I was told I was going to burn in hell. Fun stuff)! I don't want to persecute anyone for their religion. I simply want to encourage my students to learn about their world. To learn how to better research. If that's a crime, I ought not to be a teacher. I was under the impression that school was for learning, expanding your skills in research, and becoming your own person with the aid/help/encouragement of people like me who want to teach.

Oh, and on a side note, I don't even know if evolution will even a part of the cirriculum.

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Originally Posted by Melicious

Medusa probably hit closest to home. I don't envision myself standing at my "pulpit" with my hands raised high screaming at my students, "Come to God, children! This mockery of Christ will send you to hell!" I simply want to encourage their own research. Whether they agree with/disagree with/aren't sure about, evolution is their own deal. I would like them to understand that it's okay to look at other options, further understand evolution, and if they stumble upon a creationist story and that fits dearer to their heart, then so be it.

I just find that if I encourage them to look at other options, not necessarily point them in the right direction, they might learn a little better. I can, however; envision myself standing in front of my class(not behind a podium), and stating very simply: Evolution is the accepted norm for our coming into exist, however; evolution isn't completely tried and true, and I encourage you to look at other scientific and otherwise "theories." (Oh, and yes, I love my quote hand movements)! I encourage you all to look through LexusNexus, science journals; scholarly sources are your best bet. Oh, and Matt, you can take Ody out. (Oh yes! I will have snakes in my classroom).

So...I don't want to teach them religion. I don't want to teach them to be religious. I don't even want to mention the word God. I simply want to let them know that there are other options out there, whether scientific or otherwise. ^_^ I want to encourage that they learn outside of the classroom. That's all. Whether it's evolution or the stem cell research going on.

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I agree with Jeanne with one minor disagreement........YOu don’t need to teach TO the science textbook....in fact, in my opinion, most good science teachers do bring in labs, activities, experiences, that extend beyond the textbook. However, these inquiry activities most often build upon the themes discussed in the textbook......

And these activities must (by law) follow the guidelines of the state standards.......ideally, they follow the vision of science education set forth by National Science Education Standards (NSES) and the AAAS' Benchmarks for Scientific Inquiry.

In general, there are three lofty goals to science ed.

1. The development of intellectual skills (critical thinking, problem solving, etc.)
2. The understanding and appreciation of the methods and nature of science
3. The mastery of science facts, concepts, and principles.

You may think that the "research" you seem to want to encourage them to do falls within the first realm.....However, this reseach you wish to promote to students certainly conflicts the second and third goals!

You want to teach them research using the methods of science (in fact you must these are in most state standards....and textbooks wont help with this very much).....

You want to teach them how to research using the sources of science......

I encourage some use of Science Journals (however, for the most part they are just not developmentally appropriate for the high school level).....

but what (legitimate) science journal can you find that doesn’t support the idea that evolution is a fact and that NeoDarwinism is the main and currently most accepted mechanism of evolution?

Furthermore, What science magazine fall within this realm? None also.....Promoting the use of sources Scientific American, Popular Science, Discover,or even a godo newspaper for a current events or current research assignment is a great idea......but what sources did you have mind?

Science is a specific way of knowing and that's what you need to impart to you students as a professional science educator. Again....I am unsure if you really understand what science is or what the goals of science education are.....if you do really understand these then your just ignoring them and trying to promote your own agenda.

The NSES are online.....check out them out here http://newton.nap.edu/html/nses/

Chapter 6 is the standards regarding what you teach to students......they provide a large framework to explore many, many types of scientific phenomena...more than you could ever want to cover well in a school year! If they don’t fall somehow within these guidelines chances are honey they don’t fall within the realm of science! And hence you have no business going there!

Maybe you know science or know how to do science better than the National Academy of Sciences or American Association for the Advancement of Sciences (AAAS)......Now to me, that kind of view is elitist!

I can't teach precisely to the text book. I was subjugated to that throughout high school and I learned very little. If taught in an interesting way, with encouragement, however; I learned quickly and excelled.

I think the problem with a lot of teachers today is that's all they do: Teach to the textbook without making the material come alive and mean something.

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Originally Posted by kzooherpetoculturist

here's how i look at it (coming from a future bio/chem teacher)...
you teach whats in your curriculum. personally i think evolution is full of holes so i plan on giving 'disclaimer' that it truly is the 'theory' of evolution. i don't think anyone can deny that we're all changing, evolving, adapting, whatever you want to call it... it's the beginnings that just dont add up.
that said, evolution is very important to learn in terms of general biology!

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Darwinism and the facts that support evolution say nothing about the origin or beginning of life.......

The origin of life is under scientific study....but it is a very specific branch of scientific study....and this is not in state or national standards to my knowledge!

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Originally Posted by Melicious

I can't teach precisely to the text book. I was subjugated to that throughout high school and I learned very little. If taught in an interesting way, with encouragement, however; I learned quickly and excelled.

I think the problem with a lot of teachers today is that's all they do: Teach to the textbook without making the material come alive and mean something.

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You missed my point......to state it in a phrase...your job as a science teacher is to make science come alive!