Going from mice to rats?

How can i determine when my BP is ready to tackle a larger animal like a rat? She's a little over a year and I'm hoping a mouse a week is sufficiant enough. Plus i'm trying to get some size growth out of her. Thank you

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Originally Posted by mikehorton

How can i determine when my BP is ready to tackle a larger animal like a rat? She's a little over a year and I'm hoping a mouse a week is sufficiant enough. Plus i'm trying to get some size growth out of her. Thank you

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For whatever it's worth, my yearling (and 2 year old) adult females that are mousers are eating two adult mice per week and growing at the exact same rate my yearling females that are eating rats. You wouldn't be able to tell the difference in feeder type by looking at them. ;)

-adam

Just feed one appropriate sized prey item once a week. If a small rat is about the same size as her girth, then try a small rat. Good luck.

Rats have more protein so it will help it grow faster. If a small rat is 1 - 1.5 times the max girth, then I say go for it. When I run out of the F/T mice I have I'm swirching to rats.

Just following some logic:

If this:

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my yearling (and 2 year old) adult females that are mousers are eating two adult mice per week and growing at the exact same rate my yearling females that are eating rats.

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is correct,

then this:

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Rats have more protein so it will help it grow faster.

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is incorrect.

Comprende?

and you have to compare apples to apples, if you feed 2 mice that weigh 50 grams total, and then you feed one rat that is 60 grams! well then you are putting more weight into your feeding. think about it in terms of weight rather than mice or rats?



vaughn

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Originally Posted by Grim91Z

Rats have more protein so it will help it grow faster.

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That is a myth.

It doesn't matter how much crude protein, fat, potassium, etc any rodent has, because NO ONE knows what the nutritional requirements of a ball python fed on any given schedule are.

For example, if a small rat has say 20 grams of crude protein, and a large mouse has 13 grams of crude protein, but a ball python when fed weekly will only digest and use 8 grams of crude protein, passing the remaining protein in it's body as waste, how does it even matter?

-adam

Ok so i shouold compare the girth of my Bp to that of the prey? the guy at the petstore was telling me to wait until her head is like so big before even thinking about trying it.

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Originally Posted by gmmuscle91

Just feed one appropriate sized prey item once a week.

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This is the rule...and that your feeder animals are clean and healthy (and properly defrosted if you are feeding f/t). =)

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Originally Posted by mikehorton

Ok so i shouold compare the girth of my Bp to that of the prey? the guy at the petstore was telling me to wait until her head is like so big before even thinking about trying it.

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You want a prey animal that is the same size or just under as the widest diameter of your snake. Snakes jaws expand massively when feeding, so that's not a good judge. =)

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Originally Posted by gmmuscle91

Just feed one appropriate sized prey item once a week. If a small rat is about the same size as her girth, then try a small rat. Good luck.

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only one prey item?

I am trying to decide what to order -- ordering online so I cannot see the sizes of the rats and need some help out.

My girl is about 30 inches long and just at a year old. She was around 24/25 inches when I got her in Nov and skinny...now she has some girth to her (a booty as I call it).

My girl has been eating 2 rat pups a week. She actually acts like she may eat more or she is just curious but I have stuck to two. Sometimes she takes a while on the second one (to bite) and since she is growing I felt that was good until now. They go down REALLY fast now and I think they are too small so that is why I moved to feeding two. She is growing so I know that up until now...it has been the right amount. But thinking it is time to move up...

What is the next size up called? Am I on the right track you think? Since I cannot see them to compare to her width...trying to figure out what to ask for when I order.

My next question is - is it bad to move to bigger prey less often? I am keeping a friends snake who is 17 years old (another ball). She feeds him a big feeding about every 3 to 4 weeks...really he tells her when by his actions. So she gets his food when he gets into hunt mode. She still feeds him rat pups - but many of them since he does eat live - and she worries about him getting bitten.
What is the reason behind ensuring that the size of the food is the same or a little bigger than the width of the snake? Is this feeding unhealthy for him?

I just had a though,...the general rule to determine the appropirate prey for a bp is by girth,..so how do you determine how many to feed?.,,just a though.I have a baby bp its about 20 inches i feed it one adult mice every 7-10 days. How would i know when he gets older if i should feed him more than one? or just one large prey?

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Originally Posted by phoenix-dancing

I am trying to decide what to order -- ordering online so I cannot see the sizes of the rats and need some help out.

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Use this link and click on any of the mice or rats to see the sizes
http://www.themousefactory.com/rates/rates.html

Also have a look at www.rodentpro.com for pics and sizes so you can figure out what you need. Basically rats go this way...pinkie (age birth to about 8 or 9 days old), fuzzy (9 days to 14 days), pups (day 14 until they are weaned), weaned or weanling (after they are weaned and before they have reached the "small" size). There is more information in the stickies in the Feeder Forum describing each stage of young rat development.

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My girl has been eating 2 rat pups a week. She actually acts like she may eat more or she is just curious but I have stuck to two. Sometimes she takes a while on the second one (to bite) and since she is growing I felt that was good until now. They go down REALLY fast now and I think they are too small so that is why I moved to feeding two.

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I'd say you'd be good to go on small rats! I've had ball pythons much smaller and younger than yours get on small rats with no problem.

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My next question is - is it bad to move to bigger prey less often? I am keeping a friends snake who is 17 years old (another ball). She feeds him a big feeding about every 3 to 4 weeks

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An mature adult ball python will be sustained on an appropriately sized meal every 3-4 weeks, but I would say that interval is an absolute minimum. In addition, you mentioned it was feeding on rat pups. Has this person owned the snake for 17 years? Was he aware that you are supposed to increase the size of prey as the size of the snake increases? Assure your friend that your snake will not be bitten by larger prey under an appropriately supervised feeding, and that his or her snake will benefit from eating more appropriately sized meals at a smaller interval.

hey thanks!


I think I will move her up the food chain then and feed her one larger prey. Is it that when they are young they eat more often due to growing? Then when they get older they eat more at in one sitting and then wait? She is sooo easy to feed - weekly is easy for me. But learning here.

Yes ... my friend has had snakes (red tail boas and ball pythons) for about 30 years. She is quite experienced with them and I do not want to insult her but if I have info then she will not take it that way. She has had him for 16 years..got hime when he was 1 year old.
She does care for him well and loves him dearly -- do not want anyone to think otherwise -- but I take it that she is nervous about her boy getting bitten and has always done it this way. She completely watches over the feeding...actually it is quite time consuming since she feeds so many to ensure he get enough -- we are talking HOURS.
I am hearing that you would suggest a bigger prey, less in numbers, more like every 2 weeks or so. She feeds him according to his actions rather than the timeframe - he stays out a little more to let you know "Im hungry".

So what exactly is the reason for the size versus the number fed? Trying to understand that for myself and so I can share with her. I really want my girl to be completely healthy and SPOILED!

What stood out to me about a 17 y/o ball eating rat pups is that I've got a 6 month old ball eating small rats. The idea is that rap pups alone probably don't fulfill the optimal nutritional requirements that a 17 y/o ball may need.

One thing that she is doing right though, is that ball pythons seem to benefit from eating multiple smaller prey items. The "benefit" is weighed on outcomes like feeding more consistently, growing at a faster rate, etc etc. I do think feeding a 17 y/o ball rat pups is extreme, I guess I'd have to see the snake before I made a definitive call on what prey size would be appropriate. Maybe refer your friend to the site.

Old-school herpers are very set in their ways and can be a source of conflict when they come to a site like this, teeming with people more current on husbandry issues.

If she's got a happy, healthy, well cared for 17 y/o ball that eats rat pups- I can't really argue with that.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

For whatever it's worth, my yearling (and 2 year old) adult females that are mousers are eating two adult mice per week and growing at the exact same rate my yearling females that are eating rats. You wouldn't be able to tell the difference in feeder type by looking at them. ;)

-adam

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That is interesting to say the least. I have also noticed the same thing with one of my 18 month old's that is a mouser, gaining just as well as another the same age that is eating rats.

I breed rats purely because I can produce a ton of them in comparison to breeding mice that can't match it with rats when it comes to populating!

I wonder if a ball python can digest and make the most of 2 mice easier then one can by eating rats?

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Originally Posted by Sputnik

I wonder if a ball python can digest and make the most of 2 mice easier then one can by eating rats?

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In my experience, gram for gram, it all works out to be about the same.

-adam

[QUOTE=elevatethis]
One thing that she is doing right though, is that ball pythons seem to benefit from eating multiple smaller prey items. The "benefit" is weighed on outcomes like feeding more consistently, growing at a faster rate, etc etc.
[QUOTE]

He eats anywhere from 6-10 rat pups in a sitting....so it is quite a bit more than the 2 my gal is getting. He is about 4 feet and nice size in girth...not sure how big to say...big than my wrists for sure. She feeds until he stops looking for the next one -- if she buys too many, the place here is great and will take them back for credit.

So I just wondered and not really understanding the difference in the feeding more in numbers versus size...does it actually have a nutritional impact? As the rats get older - is it different? Or does the size do something to help the snake grow and digest better? I appreciate the comparison...I have books but they never say why to move up or what it really does....

Funny you mention the difference of old school and newer...she was the first person to talk me through the right breed for me and the care. I also have another buddy who is more like this site. So my first education came from the two of them and they do differ...one says feed live and the other says frozen. After keeping him - I was lucky to get a gal who likes frozen so I took the lesser of the feedings in time and worries...haha. This is a great site and helped me through the first month of 'first time mom jitters'!!!!

6-10 rat pups in a sitting? Well, I think thats an adequate amount food at one sitting, but IMHO not enough for feeding once a month.

Would I do it? No way, 1-2 small rats seems like its much easier on me and the snakes.

It is a lot of work to me....I have him now and will pick up dinner tonight. I will be feeding him for probably 2 hours.....no joke. It was that experience (and not knowing you move up) that made me soooo happy when my girl took prekill -- WHEW! My other friend was prepared to come and show me how to teach her or coax her into eating prekill if needed...I got lucky though and she is a breeze with our little feeding ritual (she knows by certain set ups that food is coming and she is ready).


Cool to know -- thanks...I may talk to my buddy about trying to move up but betting that she likes it this way and he is healthy! He does let you know when he is hungry...like I said...she goes off of his actions not the timeframe. So he tells her when it is time as weather and such changes that throughout the year. For example - this week is about 2.5 weeks since feeding and he is giving me signal...or eagle eye to bring him some food...so going today to get dinner. She just uses the 4 week mark as a guideline -- if he has not acted hungry she tries to feed by that time.....but usually it is more like 3 weeks or less when he tells her.

It is great having two right now and seeing how different they are in their personalities and habits...they are both so wonderful and sooooo different!

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

6-10 rat pups in a sitting? Well, I think thats an adequate amount food at one sitting, but IMHO not enough for feeding once a month.

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Actually, it's probably more than enough for a male ball python at that age ... bet he makes big poops. :gj:

-adam

That's interesting how you guys have learned how to read your snake's behavior, or at least interpret that behavior as hunger-induced.

Unfortunately, I don't necessarily agree. Most of the literature I've read on ball pythons explains that they are, by nature, ambush predators. A ball python that exhibits the behavior you are "reading" as indicating they are hungry is actually contradictory to most descriptions of their natural tendencies. I don't know what the affects of captivity would have on these behaviors, but its something to think about nonetheless.

Not a single one of mine are cruising their cages on feeding night. They are usually alert with their head poking out of their hides waiting for the rat to come to them.


Just food for thought. My thought is that the snake would eat more often if offered.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Actually, it's probably more than enough for a male ball python at that age ... bet he makes big poops. :gj:

-adam

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Even at once a month? I'm picturing in my head like a 2000 gram 17 y/o male. I have no doubt it would sustain them...I guess I'm just asking for more snake poop to clean.....

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Not a single one of mine are cruising their cages on feeding night. They are usually alert with their head poking out of their hides waiting for the rat to come to them.

Just food for thought. My thought is that the snake would eat more often if offered.

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Actually ... I mentioned 'the eagle eye' ....he does not cruise. He just will stay out rather then duck back in and will be a little more active at night (he will actually be out more). Normally he is not out much and may be peeking out but will duck back into the hut if approached. She has had him for 16 years so I think she does see habits....that is a long time. Also, she feeds him until he is done. The process that is followed lets him know food is coming...and he gets into position immediately. When he is full and does not want any more, he goes into his hut and does not come out - you then know how many you have to return....haha.

Uhhh and yes... big poops...poor guy ...big enough he ends up on top of the houses if he does place himself where all the paper gets messed up..haha. Hey to me .. still better than changing a diaper!

I do already see patterns with my girl too... I keep a diary of her patterns. That is a lesson from my buddy with the 17 year old...she has a diary for her 16 years with him....also drawings of his markings with photos to identify him...