caramel albino

i am considering purchasing a pair of 100 % het albino's this summer. I wa sconsidering just getting a pair of het albino's. i need to know what is the difference between the caramel albino and albino. With the caramel albino, is it possible to produce both caramel's and albino's?

They are two completely different recessive morph's.If you get a pair of 100%Het albino you'll breed an albino.If you want a Caramel albino you need a 100%Hetcaramel albino pair.

Here's a good visual illustration of the difference between the two ...

http://www.8ballpythons.com/uploads/...s-03310501.jpg

They are two different genetic traits. Caramel albinos are rarer than regular albinos and therefore caramels are holding a higher price. The demand for caramels is also very strong, I sold out of all of my het pairs this year and I'm getting strong demand for 2006 pairs already.

-adam

Nice pile man.

BTW...for both of those snakes...pictures are like insults...gotta see an albino or caramel in person to "get it"....awesome!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by elevatethis

Nice pile man.

BTW...for both of those snakes...pictures are like insults...gotta see an albino or caramel in person to "get it"....awesome!

---

My thoughts exactly. I loved pieds and spiders to begin with, but until I saw them in person at an expo, I couldn't fully appreciate them. -Meltage.-

Had to come to this thread. Resistance is futile!! :love:

Caramel... :tongue2: :floating:

So tasty. Nice visual illustration Adam!!

Very nice visual of the difference. Caramels are the bomb. I am hoping that my Het female will lay this year.

Great pic Adam , can't wait to see all these morph's in daytona.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by muddoc

Very nice visual of the difference. Caramels are the bomb. I am hoping that my Het female will lay this year.

---

I'm definitely keeping my fingers crossed for you on that one Tim. Baby caramels are soooo awesome ... I just "found" one of my het caramel girls that I had pretty much written off with a belly full of eggs ... that's the kind of surprise that puts a smile on your face. ;)

-adam

I would say that would put a smile on my face. My Het female is 1200 grams right now, and eating like a train. She is an '04 model, so I think she has great potential. My Het male bred great this year, also an '04 model, but no eggs from the females this year. I did get to see a Caramel hatching at Sean's place last year, and the kick butt right out of the egg, and to top it off, they get better looking with each shed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I just "found" one of my het caramel girls that I had pretty much written off with a belly full of eggs ... that's the kind of surprise that puts a smile on your face. ;)

---

Wewt!

Yeah, that picture looks like an ice cream sundae...YUM!

thanks for the great picture adam and clearing that up. i have a chance to get a pair of 100% het albino that may have the caramel gene. the parents was a male albino and the female was 50% possible het caramel. i can get the het pair for about the same price as a pair of het albino's for. should i get the het albino's with the chance of producing a caramel someday?

thanks, nate

if you really like caramels, go for a het caramel pair! the 3 yrs you spend raising your het albino pr will be a long time to maybe get a caramel! 3 yrs of cleaning feeding and general care is a long time for a slim chance, imo. the caramels are killer in person, they glow, the color is intense...



vaughn

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kavmon

if you really like caramels, go for a het caramel pair! the 3 yrs you spend raising your het albino pr will be a long time to maybe get a caramel! 3 yrs of cleaning feeding and general care is a long time for a slim chance, imo. the caramels are killer in person, they glow, the color is intense...



vaughn

---

Vaughn is so right on this one. They are AWESOME! You have to see one in person to really get a feel for how hot they are.

I don't know if anyone has yet bred a homozygous albino to a homozygous caramel to test that the two different mutations might not be alleles (different mutations of the same gene). It doesn't seem terribly likely that they are alleles but its one possible explanation for the albino gene showing up in a caramel line going back to the founder. Under my allele theory for caramel and albino it would not be possible for normal looking het albinos to also be het caramel. The theory is that the animal with both one albino and one caramel version of the common gene would look caramel.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandyRemington

Under my allele theory for caramel and albino it would not be possible for normal looking het albinos to also be het caramel.

---

Sir,

A couple of questions ...

1. Why would the simplest explanation for amel albinos appearing in caramel clutches (that the original NERD male is also het amel albino) not be good enough to the point that you feel the need to come up with an "alternate" theory? Wouldn't Occam's razor apply?

2. If there are numerous lines of caramel albinos (I can think of 7 of the top of my head), and as each of these lines are crossed to date they are all compatible, and only one of the caramel lines has EVER produced amel albinos, how could a so called "allele theory" have any legs when compared to the explanation that the original male caramel from one of the NERD caramel lines was also het amel albino?

-adam

Good questions.

I'm thinking it's a toss up as to which theory would be Occam's favorite.

1. On the one hand what are the chances of a NERD's wild bred male having a concentration of three mutant color genes (two copies of the caramel albino and one copy of the regular albino)? If each gene where randomly distributed in the wild at 1 in 100 then the chance of a homozygous caramel is 1 in 40,000 and the chances of also being het albino would bump it up to 1 in 4,000,000.

The allele theory only requires that male to have two mutant color genes, one regular albino and one caramel albino. Using the same estimation of the rarity of the genes in the wild and random distribution that combination in it's self would be a 1 in 40,000 shot. But you still have to factor in how unlikely it is that these two phonotypical different mutations happen to be of the same gene? There are lots of genes but when you narrow it down to genes that effect color and that also can have survivable mutations maybe the pool is small enough that as we move past the infancy of ball python mutation combinations we should be running into alleles all over the place (platy complex?). If there are fewer mutant survivable color genes than normals for every het albino in the wild then the allele theory is the less improbably explanation of the two.

2. Maybe NERD's caramel is the only import that wasn't homozygous caramel. True, the random distribution model would support it being equally likely to produce the albino + caramel allele pair version as often as the homozygous caramel version but perhaps this is evidence for localized inbreeding skewing the production of morphs with lower levels of wild hets than in the random distribution model above. Indecently, factoring in localized inbreeding of rarer hets would allow for albino and caramel being an allele pair in spite of a greater number of mutant survivable color gene to still be equally as probably as a homozygous caramel also being het albino. Maybe the caramel gene comes from an isolated breeding population where the albino gene is unusually rare so the chances of a paring of the two alleles in the wild is low compared to the chance of a homozygous for either allele by it’s self. If the albino gene wasn't in any of the other import caramels to start with it wouldn't be expected to show up in those lines. Most breeders have probably avoided crossing caramel into albino lines believing the less expensive albino phenotype would obscure the caramel appearance in the double homozygous (assuming they are separate genes). Still, you do have a point, by now there are enough unknown albino hets in the captive population I would expect albinos to start popping up in other caramel lines eventually if caramel and albino are alleles and you can't easily tell the mutant allele pair from a homozygous caramel.

Eventually someone will breed homozygous caramel to homozygous albino and report the results and then we'll finally know one way or the other. If I where selling het caramels I would want to know as soon as possible.

"If each gene where randomly distributed in the wild at 1 in 100 then the chance of a homozygous caramel is 1 in 40,000 and the chances of also being het albino would bump it up to 1 in 4,000,000."

Actually it might be rarer than that, someone check my math here.

If albino and caramel are separate genes inherited independently (no linking - on different chromosomes) and each occurs randomly at 1 in 100 then the odds of a 1 in 100 het albino pairing with a 1 in 100 het caramel to produce a random double het would be 1 in 10,000 for the pairing and only 1 in 4 of the offspring getting both genes so 1 in 40,000.

Now the odds of that 1 in 40,000 double het randomly pairing with a 1 in 100 het caramel would be the 1 in 4,000,000 but the odds of producing a homozygous caramel that is also het albino from that pairing would be 1 in 4 for the homozygous caramel part and 1 in 2 for the het albino part so 1 in 8 total to produce the homozygous caramel het albino times the 1 in 4,000,000 for the pairing so ends up being a 1 in 32,000,000 snake.

Of course the random pairing assumption could be wrong but as pointed out localized inbreeding might actually favor the allele theory.

However, something still doesn't look quite right. Should I not be factoring in the offspring production part of the odds? Is it only 1 in 1,000,000 for the combination of three 1 in 100 genes? Explain why if this is the right way to figure please I’m too tired to be sure which is correct right now. Still pretty darn rare with either calculation and which theory is more rare still comes down to if it’s more likely for a random wild animal to be het albino or for caramel and albino to be alleles.

In theory I'm a genius.:P ;)

Oh by the way Randy, to create a theory you have to run tests and have solid scientific evidence after several trials...not just some random thoughts you call "theory". I sir call that an empty theory. The wild caught adults are a crapshoot when it comes to the morph game...there may be something there, but most times not.

-Jason

Sorry, I'm not following you on the wild caught adult part.

True, I would love to see some tests to start to prove or disprove this theory. The original test it was based on was a way to explain Corey Woods' production of only albinos from a pair of animals purchased as het caramels. If no one else gets around to breeding homozygous albino to homozygous caramel AND posting the results for the definitive test in the next couple of decades I'll probably be able to do it.

You're stating on the odds of the Imported (not WC, my bad) to carry the genetics for three genes...I'm just saying regardless its all a crapshoot, there isn't a definitive way to know the odds of a snakes genetic makeup because you don't know until its bred, and its not all that common to find another snake with the exact same genetic makeup.

I just think its time to give up your theories and try to figure things out for yourself if you really want to know then breed a homozygous albino to a homozygous caramel. Until then stop with your theories, and if you want factual information talk to the ones who have done some breeding...such as NERD.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandyRemington

Good questions.

---

Thank you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandyRemington

If each gene where randomly distributed in the wild at 1 in 100

---

Isn't this an extremely elementary view of population genetics? Couldn't a more localized cluster of a specific gene or two greatly increase this frequency and make the numbers that your "allele theory" are based on worthless? Have you taken any time to study or inquire about or even consider any locality specific information that may or may not be related to the wild collection of homozygous albino or homozygous caramel albino animals?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandyRemington

Maybe the caramel gene comes from an isolated breeding population where the albino gene is unusually rare so the chances of a paring of the two alleles in the wild is low compared to the chance of a homozygous for either allele by it’s self.

---

Wouldn't that invalidate your idea above that each gene is randomly distributed in the wild at 1 in 100 and just lend credit to the belief that a homozygous caramel was imported carrying a copy of the albino gene from an isolated breeding population where the albino gene is unusually common?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandyRemington

Still, you do have a point

---

Yeah, I know.

-adam

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandyRemington

Should I not be factoring in the offspring production part of the odds?

---

Isn't this part of "your" theory? Are you asking me or talking to yourself out loud? Wouldn't you have your own numbers "dialed in" before discussing a theory in a public forum?

I know you're usually more precise than this?? What gives buddy? :confuzd:

-adam

Quote:

---

I just think its time to give up your theories and try to figure things out for yourself if you really want to know then breed a homozygous albino to a homozygous caramel. Until then stop with your theories, and if you want factual information talk to the ones who have done some breeding...such as NERD.

---

I don't see the lines between factual information and theory and "empty theory" as being so cut and dry. Which is the explanation that the imported caramel was homozygous caramel and het albino? I would argue that it was just the most likely and easy to understand THEORY given the initial information available (it looked like a caramel but produced albinos with some of its offspring). At some point later information became available that a pair of its offspring may only be het for albino. That new information required a new explanation theory and skewed the probability away from the original theory. I still don't know that anyone has done the homozygous caramel X homozygous albino breeding so what gives others more right to espouse the UNTESTED THEORY that they are unrelated genes than me to point out that it's still possible they are alleles?

Quote:

---

Isn't this an extremely elementary view of population genetics? Couldn't a more localized cluster of a specific gene or two greatly increase this frequency and make the numbers that your "allele theory" are based on worthless? Have you taken any time to study or inquire about or even consider any locality specific information that may or may not be related to the wild collection of homozygous albino or homozygous caramel albino animals?

---

It is a simplified view of population genetics. But as pointed out, whatever the numbers really are they wash out because they are in both theories. What it really comes down to is how likely is it for a random wild animal (that just happens to be homozygous for an independent caramel gene) to be het albino vs. how likely is it that the two color mutations are alleles.

You have pointed out in separate threads that morph locality information is a closely guarded trade secret held by the collectors.

Quote:

---

Wouldn't that invalidate your idea above that each gene is randomly distributed in the wild at 1 in 100 and just lend credit to the belief that a homozygous caramel was imported carrying a copy of the albino gene from an isolated breeding population where the albino gene is unusually common?

---

But if there is a locality where both caramel and albino are concentrated then shouldn't other caramel lines have produced albinos too?

As far as the statistics, I'm asking anyone who understands them to present an argument as to why the clutch ratios should or should not be multiplied by the pairing ratios.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandyRemington

You have pointed out in separate threads that morph locality information is a closely guarded trade secret held by the collectors.

---

Yup ... but not "impossible" to find. You should try talking to some of the American and European ball python breeders that have been over there ... I think you'd probably re-think some of your "theories". ;)

-adam

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandyRemington

But if there is a locality where both caramel and albino are concentrated then shouldn't other caramel lines have produced albinos too?

---

Not if one of the caramels imported was collected in an area known to have a heavy concentration of albinos .... and the others were collected in a completely different country. :sweeet:

-adam