humane way to prekill rats?

What's the best way top prekill a rat before you feed it to a ball python? I truly prefer feeding f/t, but that's not always an option with BP's. In any case, killing rodents is one of my least favorite activities. Any recommendations?

Thanks,

Matt

You could try breaking their neck, this is tricky, and unless you are careful can go wrong. To do this you pin their head down with a spoon or a stick or something that will keep it from moving, then you quickly pull up on their tail to break their neck. Another way, that I have never tried, is to use CO2. You just need a tall bucket, trash can, or any other tall container and a bottle of CO2. You charge the bucket with the CO2, (because CO2 is heavier than air, it'll stay in the bottom of the bucket), then you drop the rat in. It'll go unconsious immediately, and die a short time later.

Something that Justin did that I saw to be somewhat humane was to take a pair of forceps, pin the rat down, and snap the neck with the forceps. -Shrugs.- Is there really any "humane" way to kill any food item?

Thanks for the recommendations. Is there any concern about using CO2 to kill the rat right before you feed it to your bp?

Matt

Dry ice, put it in a dish inside a sterilite or similar container. Needs to be air tight. The rats simply fall asleep, painless!

When I do dry ice them, about $2 or $3 worth of dry ice puts about 100 rats in the freezer for me.

I just KO the rodents now with a good thump on the head. if you do it right the right hind leg will twitch. that for some odd reason ups the feeding responce of my 2 BPs. if it is just laying there breathing, my male wont touch it ... it has to move.

if you do the thump really well it kills them on contact. no fight, just falls over.


you must think Im mean now.

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Originally Posted by jessie_k_pythons

I just KO the rodents now with a good thump on the head. if you do it right the right hind leg will twitch. that for some odd reason ups the feeding responce of my 2 BPs. if it is just laying there breathing, my male wont touch it ... it has to move.

if you do the thump really well it kills them on contact. no fight, just falls over.


you must think Im mean now.

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Nothing wrong with doing it that way either!

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Originally Posted by jessie_k_pythons

I just KO the rodents now with a good thump on the head. if you do it right the right hind leg will twitch. that for some odd reason ups the feeding responce of my 2 BPs. if it is just laying there breathing, my male wont touch it ... it has to move.

if you do the thump really well it kills them on contact. no fight, just falls over.


you must think Im mean now.

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IMO....feeding 'stunned' animals is a bad way to go. At any time the rat may become 'un-stunned' and get VERY defensive.....which could result in a bad feeding experience. When you feed live rodents, it is best if the rodents are not in a distressed state.....

...think of it this way. Would you rather be locked in a cage with a calm bear or one that has just been punched in the head by someone?..:D


And back to the original question. Here are some good reads:

These are the people who wrote the book on euthanizing animals and have done extensive research on what is best for the animals. Search around this site a little and you will find some of the best info out there:
http://labanimals.stanford.edu/index.html

For quick reads from that site, if you don't want to look around:

About Cervical Dislocation (the method I use for mice...not to be used for larger rodents)
http://labanimals.stanford.edu/Guidelines/Cerv_Dis.html

About Co2:
http://labanimals.stanford.edu/Guidelines/CO2.html

Accordning to the American Veterinary Association, CO2 is the most humane way to dispatch prey items that are to be used as feeders.

-adam

When i have to kill my rats for future feedings i think my way is quick.I simply take the rat and hold him tight(i have welders gloves on so no biting here)and take a pair of pliers and squeeze his throat.It breaks his neck and he dies in minutes and sometimes you get the jumpers that your snake thinks its still alive.The only draw back is if you get to close to the head you get some blood out of the ears.

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Originally Posted by joepythons

When i have to kill my rats for future feedings i think my way is quick.I simply take the rat and hold him tight(i have welders gloves on so no biting here)and take a pair of pliers and squeeze his throat.It breaks his neck and he dies in minutes and sometimes you get the jumpers that your snake thinks its still alive.The only draw back is if you get to close to the head you get some blood out of the ears.

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That is hardly humane and certainly isn't quick.

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Originally Posted by joepythons

When i have to kill my rats for future feedings i think my way is quick.I simply take the rat and hold him tight(i have welders gloves on so no biting here)and take a pair of pliers and squeeze his throat.It breaks his neck and he dies in minutes and sometimes you get the jumpers that your snake thinks its still alive.The only draw back is if you get to close to the head you get some blood out of the ears.

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Wow I think that's a little mean.Me I let the snake's do the killin.

If you use the site search function for this forum, you will find plenty of threads on this same topic.. use the search term "humane euthanization of rodents" or euthanizing rodents".

You are right on the humane part,but when you take them and thump there heads on something i think thats more cruel.I basicly do what the snake does in a sense instead of squeezing him to death i break his neck.Another thing killing them this way compared to thumping them i have never had a rat get up and attack the snake.I was just giving this way as a possibility if its needed.

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Originally Posted by emilio

Wow I think that's a little mean.Me I let the snake's do the killin.

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If you think about it either way can be veiwed as being mean to the rat.I just found this way is best for me to prevent any snakes from being injured by the rat.

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Originally Posted by joepythons

If you think about it either way can be veiwed as being mean to the rat.I just found this way is best for me to prevent any snakes from being injured by the rat.

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C02 isnt too mean... Ive seen rats die by this and it seems rather peaceful and it is recommended by vets

vs

crushing its windpipe and neck with pliers...


errr :)

Whatever works for you, I just wouldnt recommend this as a humane way of killing it. The reason why people wouldnt recommend brain trauma, is that it has less chance of suffering. If you were to say crush the brain with pliers, I would agree that is equal to thunking

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

C02 isnt too mean... Ive seen rats die by this and it seems rather peaceful and it is recommended by vets

vs

crushing its windpipe and neck with pliers...


errr :)

Whatever works for you, I just wouldnt recommend this as a humane way of killing it. The reason why people wouldnt recommend brain trauma, is that it has less chance of suffering. If you were to say crush the brain with pliers, I would agree that is equal to thunking

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You are correct on the CO2.I have seen to many times where someone thumps the rat on something blunt and ends up with a very bloody mess.Out of a couple hundred rats i have killed this way i think i have only had a couple messes.I hope i have not offended anyone with my example :oops: .

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=16729

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Originally Posted by joepythons

You are correct on the CO2.I have seen to many times where someone thumps the rat on something blunt and ends up with a very bloody mess.Out of a couple hundred rats i have killed this way i think i have only had a couple messes.I hope i have not offended anyone with my example :oops: .

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You haven't offended me, however your example doesn't belong in a thread about HUMANE ways to prekill rats. The only two acceptable methods for HUMANE killing are CO2 and cervical dislocation. Thumping, strangling with pliers and anything else that people have thought of doesn't qualify and shouldn't be put out there as an example of HUMANE prekilling

I agree CO2 is the way to go.

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Originally Posted by jglass38

You haven't offended me, however your example doesn't belong in a thread about HUMANE ways to prekill rats. The only two acceptable methods for HUMANE killing are CO2 and cervical dislocation. Thumping, strangling with pliers and anything else that people have thought of doesn't qualify and shouldn't be put out there as an example of HUMANE prekilling

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Sorry,is their a way someone can delete my comments?

I want to apoligize if my example of how i kill my rats has offended anyone.I never think about the rats trauma since they are a food item for reptiles.I meant for my example to be a way that your snake does not get injured while attempting to eat its meal.Thank you

There are laws some places that would consider doing the pliar thing cruel to animals therefore you can get fined. I like the CO2 way the most. I've used it 2 times and usually the rat is knocked out before it hits the bottom of the tub. Painless, quicks, and they can be fed off right after that. The other way I do is hold the rat by his tail or put it in a pillow case. Slam it 2 or 3 good times on the floor and you have a dead or stunned rat. Takes only a second or 2 to get it done. The other way I have heard of is holding the rat/mouse with a pen or pencil at the neck and pull the tail. Dislocates the neck making for a great twitch dance and an immediate death. Practice it on dead mice and rats to get the pull part right

When we knock out large numbers of rats, to be frozen...



We use C02. We use a pick-up truck tool box like thing... Around 6' x 2'.

We made a sytem where you connect a paint ball gun C02 tank to a hose, and the hose goes into the box. After we unload around 40 onces of C02, we are ready to put the rats, mice in.

Disconect the hose, wait about 8 minutes, open the lid to the box and its done.

That usualy lets us put down 200-300 rats/mice depending on sizes.

IMO, the best humane way to kill the feeders.

Here is a step by step to make your own. Contrary to the earlier post that states it should be airtight while using dry ice, The only time you should be using an airtight container is when you are using Co2 from a canister. Dry ice is constantly sublimating (turning from solid to gas) If you put that in an iartight container it can explode.

Dry ice here is $0.62 per lb. For 1-5 prey items I use about 1/4 of a pound.

Link to the post http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...814#post333814

Bryan

Great link there!! You can get dry ice for free from some grocery stores when you buy frozen stuff. Tell them you have a long trip back to your house or the A/C in the car is broken and you don't want the food to thaw. They usually have some laying around. I did this 1 time.

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Originally Posted by jglass38

The only two acceptable methods for HUMANE killing are CO2 and cervical dislocation.

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You just made me remember to type something Jamie....Thanks.

I would just like to share my opinion on cervical dislocation based on my experience with euthanizing rodents. I think of cervical dislocation as humane for mice, but not rats. Because the method involves the 'tail pull', this can end in a messy and horrible situation if used for rats. Since rats have such thin skin on their tails, it is very easy to 'scalp' a rats tail when doing a cervical dislocation. That is a cruel thing to do to any animal, so if I ever recommend that way of euthanizing rodents, I always like to point that out.

i know exactly what Daniel is talking about. one time i accidently 'skinned' a little bit of the rats tail. i just let my snakes do the killing now. if i were to prekill again i would use co2.

LMAO about skinning the tail. I did have that happen with a f/t rat too!! lol It was gross and really unexpeted. I forgot about that until now, Thanks for reminding me

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

You just made me remember to type something Jamie....Thanks.

I would just like to share my opinion on cervical dislocation based on my experience with euthanizing rodents. I think of cervical dislocation as humane for mice, but not rats. Because the method involves the 'tail pull', this can end in a messy and horrible situation if used for rats. Since rats have such thin skin on their tails, it is very easy to 'scalp' a rats tail when doing a cervical dislocation. That is a cruel thing to do to any animal, so if I ever recommend that way of euthanizing rodents, I always like to point that out.

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Thanks for posting that Daniel. A humane method of euthanization is only as good as the practitioner. Just as the tail scalp can happen, with CO2 if you allow too much too soon, it can be a very painful death for the rodent.

The only reason I got into this discussion is my feelings about humanity towards animals. I don't like to see any animal suffer, even if it is "just a rodent" that is being fed to my snakes.

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Thanks for posting that Daniel. A humane method of euthanization is only as good as the practitioner. Just as the tail scalp can happen, with CO2 if you allow too much too soon, it can be a very painful death for the rodent.

The only reason I got into this discussion is my feelings about humanity towards animals. I don't like to see any animal suffer, even if it is "just a rodent" that is being fed to my snakes.

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Very well said Jamie! I don't particularily think it's funny to "LMAO" about degloving a living rats tail skin while trying to humanely euthanize. However we decide to feed our snakes we always must be aware of being safe and humane...not only for the snake but for the rodent. They both deserve that from a caring, responsible keeper.

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Originally Posted by jessie_k_pythons

I just KO the rodents now with a good thump on the head. if you do it right the right hind leg will twitch. that for some odd reason ups the feeding responce of my 2 BPs. if it is just laying there breathing, my male wont touch it ... it has to move.

if you do the thump really well it kills them on contact. no fight, just falls over.


you must think Im mean now.

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This is exactly what I do. All 3 of my BPs eat live or "stunned"; I usually stun them for Bela, as she is a "weird" eater; tends to mis-strike, gets a wobbly head while eating. It just makes it easier for her to eat stunned. Ginger and LaVey wuold ignore anything not hoppin-alive; I closely watch them until the rat is completely dead in their clutches. I also feed thawed to my BCI on occasion; he'd eat anything remotely resembling a rat, live, dead, or stuffed :)

Drop it in to an old pillow case and smack it as hard as you can against a brick wall.


Quick & humane and the rat never sees it coming.

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Originally Posted by tonysapp2

Quick & humane ...

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Unless you don't smack it "hard enough" ... ouch. ;)

-adam

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Originally Posted by tonysapp2

Drop it in to an old pillow case and smack it as hard as you can against a brick wall.


Quick & humane and the rat never sees it coming.

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Once again, not humane and doesn't belong in this thread. Maybe you should start a thread on how to throw things against a brick wall...

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Originally Posted by tonysapp2

Drop it in to an old pillow case and smack it as hard as you can against a brick wall.


Quick & humane and the rat never sees it coming.

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PLease use CO2 to stun them first befor you WHACK them.. Co2 is cheap and can be found at any welding supply store. It is easy to do and make a chamber.

Co2 is great because Co2 has rapid depressant, analgesic, and anesthetic effects.. the same properties we look for in the anesthesia gasses to put someone to sleep for surgery.

also please remember that neonatal rodents (about up until their eyes are opened) due to their inherent resistance to hypoxia( lack of oxygen rich blood), CO2 narcosis MUST be followed by decapitation ( or whacking) after the animals lose consciousness.

hope this helps
Chris

This was in the thread Jeanne posted, but in case you didn't go there, this page has very helpful and easy to follow instructions for making a CO2 chamber/euthanasia machine: http://www.alysion.org/euthanasia/index.html

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Originally Posted by joepythons

You are right on the humane part,but when you take them and thump there heads on something i think thats more cruel.I basicly do what the snake does in a sense instead of squeezing him to death i break his neck.Another thing killing them this way compared to thumping them i have never had a rat get up and attack the snake.I was just giving this way as a possibility if its needed.

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I agree that you do it your way, and if you think about it the way you do it causes much less suffering than constriction. If I choose p/k, then I knock them out on a hard object and they are out quickly, but even so my snakes strike it and constrict it so even if it where to become conscious, it wouldn't make it through the constriction.

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Originally Posted by joepythons

When i have to kill my rats for future feedings i think my way is quick.I simply take the rat and hold him tight(i have welders gloves on so no biting here)and take a pair of pliers and squeeze his throat.It breaks his neck and he dies in minutes and sometimes you get the jumpers that your snake thinks its still alive.The only draw back is if you get to close to the head you get some blood out of the ears.

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he dies in minutes? how is that humane? :sigh2:

i'm so surprised at how inhumane many of the suggestions are here... my two female ratties are pregnant and i think i'm going to sell the babies... i just don't think i can kill them myself :( but if i do... i'll definitely use co2 - seems much less distressing to the poor little rattie. :mouse2:

It blows my mind how many people think thumping something cause a quick painless death.. I wish you could feel what a hammer to the back of your head feels like.. just because you see no movment doesnt mean they dont feel pain. ( no movment in a rats limbs does not mean they are dead, it just means you may have severed their spinal cord where the motor nerve exits the spinal cord, there can be the somatic nerves, pain nerves ,that are still intact and they can still feel everything.. especailly that nice hematoma that is building on there brain)

I dont understand, CO2 is so cheap and is everyhere, hell you can make it by just exhailing... please just stun them with the CO2 to put them in an amnestic state befor you go about your whackings. I wish some of you had surgery with zero anestetic and just with a paralitic,you couldnt move but feel every little whack and cut made.. then maybe, you would have a better idea of what they are feeling.

just my .02 cents.. maybe it will help you see that the spinal column and brain isn't so watered down as some of you make it

Neonatal rodents do not have a resistance to hypoxia and I don't know where you have heard that baloney before. I have CO2'd them as well as used canned air, and they go to sleep extremely fast. Yes, they may still be able to breathe while being partially sat on by their mother, but babies can definitely suffocate if oxygen deprivation occurs.

I used to feed p/k and f/t mice/rats to my snakes(still do with the Ratsnake occasionally and with the cornsnakes), but putting the mouse in a pillowcase doesn't mean a quick death. I have had some mice that didn't die after the first whack, and it just isn't fair to the rodent to have to whack it 2-3 more times. It would be like a car that slammed up against a brick wall and you didn't have your seatbelt on. You may still be alive with internal injuries, brain damage, lung collapse, diaphragmatic hernias, etc. You may not die for a few hours. Sounds like a great death to me...

I prefer using CO2 or canned air found at Walmart. I have also put them to sleep using Isofluorane and Euthasol, but not everyone has that just laying around like I do :)

You can also make a mixture of baking soda and vinegar, makes carbon dioxide, and works just the same(a bit messy though).

I think we need to have a bit more respect for the rodents that feed and keep our snakes healthy and happy. If you choose to feed live, please do it correctly and if you feed p/k or f/t, I say the exact same thing. Do it right! The snakes seem to do a much better job of dispatching rodents, so why not feed live instead of you not killing a rat or mouse on the first blow and they suffer for it?

*teps off soapbox*

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

Neonatal rodents do not have a resistance to hypoxia and I don't know where you have heard that baloney before. I have CO2'd them as well as used canned air, and they go to sleep extremely fast. Yes, they may still be able to breathe while being partially sat on by their mother, but babies can definitely suffocate if oxygen deprivation occurs.

I used to feed p/k and f/t mice/rats to my snakes(still do with the Ratsnake occasionally and with the cornsnakes), but putting the mouse in a pillowcase doesn't mean a quick death. I have had some mice that didn't die after the first whack, and it just isn't fair to the rodent to have to whack it 2-3 more times. It would be like a car that slammed up against a brick wall and you didn't have your seatbelt on. You may still be alive with internal injuries, brain damage, lung collapse, diaphragmatic hernias, etc. You may not die for a few hours. Sounds like a great death to me...

I prefer using CO2 or canned air found at Walmart. I have also put them to sleep using Isofluorane and Euthasol, but not everyone has that just laying around like I do :)

You can also make a mixture of baking soda and vinegar, makes carbon dioxide, and works just the same(a bit messy though).

I think we need to have a bit more respect for the rodents that feed and keep our snakes healthy and happy. If you choose to feed live, please do it correctly and if you feed p/k or f/t, I say the exact same thing. Do it right! The snakes seem to do a much better job of dispatching rodents, so why not feed live instead of you not killing a rat or mouse on the first blow and they suffer for it?

*teps off soapbox*

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Awesome post Becky! I like the part about showing respect for the rats.

Sevo, excellent post by you as well!!!

Lets leave the whackings to the Sopranos.

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

Neonatal rodents do not have a resistance to hypoxia and I don't know where you have heard that baloney before. I have CO2'd them as well as used canned air, and they go to sleep extremely fast. Yes, they may still be able to breathe while being partially sat on by their mother, but babies can definitely suffocate if oxygen deprivation occurs.

*teps off soapbox*

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Becky, please know something about physiology befor posting someting about it being "baloney".. sure the will "suffocate" but we are talking about in a timley humane matter.. As a matter of fact Neonate rats have a different oxy hemoglobin association, This meaning, they are a little more tollerant to the effects of CO2 than adult rats because they do live in a more CO2 (acidodic) enriched enviroment inutero and while they are in there first week of life.
Soooo Co2 yes will kill them but not in the same amount of time it takes to kill a adult or older pup. So instead of them becoming more hypoxic and delaying their death it helps to stun them with the CO2, . but hey i guess i and all these reference dont know waht the hell they are talking about since YOU gassed "em in a can"


please remember euthanasia is derived from the Greek terms eu meaning good and thanatos meaning death. A
“good death” would be one that occurs with minimal
pain and distress... your canned CO2 of a neonate is not so good.. but hey thanks for the for the scentific explaination of why you feel it is baloney.

1. Danneman PJ, Stein S, Walshaw SO. Humane and practical implications of using carbon dioxide mixed with oxygen for anesthesia or euthanasia of rats. Lab Anim Sci 1997, 47:376-385.
2. AVMA Panel on Euthanasia. 2000 Report of the AVMA Panel on Euthanasia. J Am Vet Med Assoc 2001, 218:669-696. pdf file
3. Guidelines for the Euthanasia of Mouse and Rat Fetuses and Neonates. NIH Animal Research Advisory Committee, 2001.

oh yeah for somneone who uses ISo i figured would know a little about CO2 and the neonate enviroment.. but hey i guess the FDA or even the vet you work for would love to know that ISO is being used for recreational gassings,... not to mention that is SOOOO illegal but hey you are a RVT.

I would hope I know something about anatomy and physiology, I am an RVT...

And who said I killed them in a can? I euthanize litters with CO2 or canned air, pinkies all the way up to hoppers. They all pass away the same way; they fall asleep, breathing becomes slower and more eratic, and they die peacefully. It doesn't take more than 2-4 minutes in the ziploc bag. I guess 2 minutes while asleep isn't a timely and humane euthanasia? I have had dogs and cats do the whole agonal breathing thing for AN HOUR after they were deceased or animals with decreased cardiac function take a good 30 minutes to go to sleep.

Also, who said I used Isofluorane for recreational purposes? I am under the general supervision of a licensed veterinarian and I know all of the mechanics of an anesthesia machine. I use them daily where I work and at school(where I keep and breed mice and a few rats for the laboratory students to work with). I am allowed to euthanize animals by myself for the purposes of laboratory work and otherwise.

I surely hope you would stop with your presumptuous attitude as we all know where that leads. In the years I have done this, no one has ever mentioned that neonates have an increased resistance to carbon dioxide, not even veterinarians or my teachers(who are veterinarians and RVTs). Even research facilities such as the cancer research facility in Temple, Texas ran by Scott and White Hospital have never mentioned this and they euthanize hundreds of mammals daily. Hm..

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

I surely hope you would stop with your presumptuous attitude as we all know where that leads. In the years I have done this, no one has ever mentioned that neonates have an increased resistance to carbon dioxide, not even veterinarians or my teachers(who are veterinarians and RVTs). Even research facilities such as the cancer research facility in Temple, Texas ran by Scott and White Hospital have never mentioned this and they euthanize hundreds of mammals daily. Hm..

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Ask any vet about the oxygen reduced and acidodic enviroment that the rats live inutero and for the first week of life.. here is a qucik phys lesson.. CO2 is really a acid. So if you live in acidodic state you are less affected by increased CO2.. why, as mentioned it is a acid... SOOO an increas in CO2 will kil them but it takes longer. Especailly for those who dont have other respiratory depressants on board such as ISO.. please ask your vet to explain it better i really dont have time to disprove your ziplock bag theroy.

please remember... there's a polite way to disagree and an impolite way... please choose the former not the latter.:wuv:

Ya know, I'm the last person that should ever be critical of someone's "attitude" ... but if I'm going to rail on someone, I at least make sure that person deserves it for acting like a tool ... Becky certainly does not ... She is one of the shining stars of this site with both academic and hands on knowledge that most can't touch with a ten foot pole.

Poor taste my friend.

-adam (aka “The pot” … Hi kettle!!!)

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

-adam (aka “The pot” … Hi kettle!!!)

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:8:

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

In the years I have done this, no one has ever mentioned that neonates have an increased resistance to carbon dioxide, not even veterinarians or my teachers(who are veterinarians and RVTs). Even research facilities such as the cancer research facility in Temple, Texas ran by Scott and White Hospital have never mentioned this and they euthanize hundreds of mammals daily. Hm..

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http://oacu.od.nih.gov/ARAC/euthanasia.pdf

http://books.google.com/books?id=OIZ...u3Ms#PPA256,M1

Check out #4....Sevo and his references are right. Neonatal rats and mice are more resistant to carbon dioxide for exactly the reason he stated. When I use to manage a transgenic mouse colony I saw this first hand.

Now you could debate whether it is "humane" or not, but bottom line is that it takes longer to euthanize neonates with CO2 than adults.

Old thread.....I know.....but he was right.