Morph Q's

I've been really reading up on this lately cuz it's extremely interesting and something I would love to get into down the road on a very small scale.

Just a few q's on producing a morph, I just want to see if my facts are straight.

I have a "normal" female.

If I purchased a "het" of something and bred it to my "normal", I would get possible "hets", correct?

If the "het" I purchased has a "dominent" gene, I would recieve a visibly different snake, correct? and if the "het" had recessive gene it would appear as a normal looking snake but with a the "het" gene? and co-dominent, I just don't quite understand.

2 "hets" bred together will equal a possible "homo" gene?

I know there are a lot of different combo's which I am sure I will be more familiar with as I go on but I just want to get an understanding on a good starting point.

on a side note, I am just wondering whether the "mojave" morph is a recessive, dominent, or co-dominent? and what would be my best method at producing one. They are by far the most appealing to me.

This is down the road for me but after finally getting my ball after having an interest in snakes FOREVER, I know this is a place I'd like to take it.

check out nerd's pages on genectics!


http://www.newenglandreptile.com/genetics_intro.html

long read but well worth it... mojo's are co-dom...
also check out this site http://www.ballpython.ca/construction.html

vaughn

wow! my head is killing me!! lol.


thanks for the links that was a crazy read!

so If basically if I want a mojave I have to buy a mojave b/c it's co-dominent and will appear different no matter what. There goes my idea of buying a cheaper het.

Recessive genes seem to be like they would be the cheaper way to a morph b/c the hets appear normal. correct?


Those sites were amazing and answered all my above q's.
thx

price depends on which recessive and which co-dom you are comparing. there are alot of morphs to choose from! lol with co-doms, you can breed normal girls to male morphs and produce morphs in your first breeding! recessives need both parents to have the gene, so you have to put the time into raising the girls to breeding size/age.



vaughn

An pair of albino hets is definitely within reach and a cheap way to make an awesome morph. I don't really have a whole lot of interest in starting an albino project now, but thats definitely on my list of snakes I'd like to have eventually. I've said it over and over- pics online really don't do that morph any justice.

Have you looked at pastels? Pastel males are cheaper than ever this year. Its a co-dominant trait (like a mojave) that will produce visible morphs right away when bred to a normal female, like Vaughn said above.

yeah I like the pastel but for some reason it just doesn't stand out. I hear pics don't do morphs justice so may'be I'd have to see one in person.

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Originally Posted by snaker35

yeah I like the pastel but for some reason it just doesn't stand out. I hear pics don't do morphs justice so may'be I'd have to see one in person.

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Some pastels are just rocking :) Some are soso.

Shop around, make a friend, pick up a pastel male for $200-400 and dont look back if you are just wanting something to start with :)

no way!! for that cheap???? will u be my friend??????

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Originally Posted by snaker35

no way!! for that cheap???? will u be my friend??????

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I dont have any :) sorry, but they are out there, go to a few local reptile shows.

Ask for Jimmy ;)

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

Ask for Jimmy ;)

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Yup ... he'll sell you that $200 pastel male and by the time you're producing pastels of your own, he'll be competing against you with pastel males at $35.00 a pop ... Jimmy looks out for his customers like that. ;)

ROCK ON! :D

-adam

I sense some hostility there :P but I totally get it that one guy is trying to undercut everyone to make a quick buck, and that isn't cool for the BP market.


but at the same time as a consumer, you can pay 1500-2000 for a snake, or buy one for 200. It's not a hard choice for most. But i'm not saying that it's right for a guy to be doing that, and he's obviously infamous if he's known by name.

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Originally Posted by snaker35

I sense some hostility there :P but I totally get it that one guy is trying to undercut everyone to make a quick buck, and that isn't cool for the BP market.


but at the same time as a consumer, you can pay 1500-2000 for a snake, or buy one for 200. It's not a hard choice for most. But i'm not saying that it's right for a guy to be doing that, and he's obviously infamous if he's known by name.

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LOL ... Nope, no hostility here ... I'll be making money in this hobby/business long after the Jimmy's have packed up and moved on ... Jimmy actually helps my business, because when his customers realize that Jimmy gave them a great "short term" deal, but screwed them over the long haul, they come to me when they're ready to make a future investment ... by then they can actually see past the nose on the end of their face and realize that buying from a breeder that will help them maximize the return on their investment over the long haul is well worth the extra bucks up front ... many times over. ;)

I LOVE IT! :D

-adam

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Originally Posted by snaker35

but at the same time as a consumer, you can pay 1500-2000 for a snake, or buy one for 200.

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I don't think there's THAT much of a difference between the same animals.... Here's an example of what I'm talking about, and what you're talking about...

If I wanted to buy a pair of Lessers off of Kingsnake... I could find one (evidently, via another thread on here) for 12k..

If I wanted to have an animal in my collection DIRECTLY from the source of lessers... and be guaranteed even 3 years down the road when my lesser bred to something else that everything was going to be perfect, then I would gladly pay the extra dough to get it straight from the source, and from a guy that keeps a multi-million dollar collection... AND produced my animal himself.

For me, it all comes down to service, quality, and the passion that the breeder has in his/her animals.... When you find a breeder like that, then you can trust that what you're getting is the real deal, and not some nice looking mojave that they're upset they can't move for last year's prices, so they're out to recoup their investment and screw anyone that will take it.

Just my thoughts...

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Originally Posted by ddbjdealer

If I wanted to have an animal in my collection DIRECTLY from the source of lessers... and be guaranteed even 3 years down the road when my lesser bred to something else that everything was going to be perfect, then I would gladly pay the extra dough to get it straight from the source

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I don't think I could have put that any better myself. I think this also applies to any morph. Buy from a reputable person who bred the snake at their facility, and you can't go wrong.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

LOL ... Nope, no hostility here ... I'll be making money in this hobby/business long after the Jimmy's have packed up and moved on ... Jimmy actually helps my business, because when his customers realize that Jimmy gave them a great "short term" deal, but screwed them over the long haul, they come to me when they're ready to make a future investment ... by then they can actually see past the nose on the end of their face and realize that buying from a breeder that will help them maximize the return on their investment over the long haul is well worth the extra bucks up front ... many times over. ;)

I LOVE IT! :D

-adam

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What about those who aren't interested in an animal as an investment? Is the average Joe Ball Python hobbyist ever going to be able to afford anything other than "normals"? I would love to have a spider, but I'm not willing to turn this "hobby" into a "job" just to make it happen...If Jimmy doesn't start breeding Spiders am I SOL??? :)

The thing is, there will always be a lot more and up and coming Jimmy's with very little overhead, maybe a pair of snakes to a small collection, breeding out of their spare bedroom or within their bedroom, advertising on KS and other classifieds, asking $2000 for a Spider or $400 for a Pastel or $1500 for an Albino or $600 for an Albino boa or $3000 for a Sunglow boa.

Does this mean Jimmy is a scammer, Jimmy is ripping people off, Jimmy doesn't have the goods, Jimmy doesn't care for his animals, does this make them bad guys? Does the dog owner who bred his pet bulldogs even think or care about the impact he'll have selling those Bulldog babies (sold at the local pet shop for $1000) at $750 will have on the Dog market and/or economy? Does the buyer of these $750.00 Bulldogs buying direct from a breeder even care that the pet shop did not make the sale?

Example:

Breeder A sells his Spider BP for $2000, Breeder B is asking $3500 for the same quality Spider.

Both are good breeders, same tubs, same feeder supplier, both bought their adults from the same well known breeder 3yrs ago, both will answer your questions on breeding, care, etc, etc, etc.


Breeder B has a few choices:
1) Lower his prices.

2) Discredit breeder A.

3) Hope someone justifies paying an extra $1500, 75% more than breeder A.

4) Shelf those animals till they are older or someone eventually buys them.


Sure, I don't like seeing boas I paid $1500 last year being sold for $600-$750 all over the place, but what can anyone do…pull your hair out, trash these guys who are just trying to make a buck for lowering their prices, write them each a nasty email as to how they are costing you money, it's a free market!

To a lot of people saving $50-$100-$500-$1000-$5000 is a lot of money, can anyone blame them for looking at the price tag?

If that Spider is worth/priced at $2000 by Jimmy, who are we to tell him "Hey idiot, you know your undercutting my price by $1500, raise your price!".

Or

The buyer who saved $1500 on the Spider, received a Spider, is thrilled with the Spider, "Hey idiot, you know that by buying that snake you just cost me $1500!".

It's like sitting in the Sears board room listening to VP's complain about Wal-Mart and Target prices. While they sit and complain about Wal-Mart, Wal-Mart grew another $10Billion.

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Originally Posted by ssscales

While they sit and complain about Wal-Mart, Wal-Mart grew another $10Billion.

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Damned Wal-Mart! They're gonna rule the world one day I tell ya, rule the world!

Ssscales makes a lot of sense.

There are, however, always going to be con artists, though. -Shrugs.- Personally, I'd buy my hets locally from reptile expos from people I know, and buy my homos from reputable breeders (When I have the money!) -Shrugs.-

I'm even a little squimish about buying hets from a show...once the shows over, and the vendor disappears, what happens three, four, five years down the road when your
"bad odds" start making you think you got scammed?

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Originally Posted by Melicious

Ssscales makes a lot of sense.

There are, however, always going to be con artists, though. -Shrugs.- Personally, I'd buy my hets locally from reptile expos from people I know, and buy my homos from reputable breeders (When I have the money!) -Shrugs.-

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I prefer when buying Hets or any snake to buy from solid reputable breeder Vs wholesalers or resellers, whether they are local or not doesn't make a difference.

If you can see what your buying before buying it, it's always a plus. Anytime you send money online to anyone for anything, you should know who you're dealing with and ask around from others that have had dealing with them.

The internet has added a lot of value and has done a lot of good, but also has made it difficult to separate the bad from good in some cases. Just look at the TSE situation for example, here was a somewhat good guy turned real bad from one day to the next!

There are scammers you can see coming a mile away and others you won't see till they have $1000 of your cash! The best advise I can give, is do your homework regardless!

The cheapest on the block isn't always the best deal, and just because someone is the most expensive on the block doesn't mean you get what you pay for!

There are exceptions in everything! Absolutely you've got good honest breeders selling at the low end of the market, the same way you've got breeders selling crap at the high end with zero customer service.

What you do at the show is purchase your animal's from the big guy's especially if your lookin for het's.And about Jimmy there's a market for everyone , there are Wal mart shopper's and Sear's shopper's.What I'm trying to say is there are certain income group's for all breeder's.Jimmy is not important , all this talk about Jimmy is called Hateing (Playa Hatin) P.S $200.00 for a pastel is preety darn low.That suck's but it's the reality of a free market there are example's of this all around us.

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Jimmy is not important , all this talk about Jimmy is called Hateing (Playa Hatin)

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I don't really see how someone low-balling prices on snakes to make up for a lack of quality or reputation in the industry could be considered a "playa"...

Now, people whining about NERD and RDR charging a premium for quality animals....now THAT is "playa hatin'."

Ssscales: I buy my hets from people I know, just at a cheaper price. The two males I bought from Ian are great boys so I'm very pleased with the quality of his snakes. I will, however, when I have the money, buy most of my homozygous kids from people like Adam. -Shrugs.-

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Now, people whining about NERD and RDR charging a premium for quality animals....now THAT is "playa hatin'."

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Exactly!
If anyone doesn't like what they are charging, don't buy it. But, don't whine about how they are charging so much for a snake or how you can't afford this snake or that one at that price. Don't ask why they don't drop that $25,000 snake to $500 for you to be able to afford it.

And for other breeders actually complaining about these successful breeders selling the same snake for more money than they are..up your prices, up your game, and compete head to head with them or stop whining!

I don't think most of these breeders selling on the low end are too concerned about the guys charging $1000 more than they are for snake X. Most of them are too busy looking for classifieds and breeders selling lower than they are.
Just my $0.02!

Just a couple of points (in a discussing kind of way, not an argument kind of way) ;) ...

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Originally Posted by ssscales

The thing is, there will always be a lot more and up and coming Jimmy's with very little overhead, maybe a pair of snakes to a small collection, breeding out of their spare bedroom or within their bedroom, advertising on KS and other classifieds

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I don't necessarily agree with that. If you look at other high end animal markets, the trends are repeated over and over ... big dollar animals are sold to the public ... many little guys/gals get into breeding and sell their animals way under market value to compete with the professional breeders ... most of the little guys/gals can't compete and eventually disappear ... the market stabilizes and the big breeders remain. Birds, fish, even the albino burmese market ... it's happened before and it will happen again with ball pythons.

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Originally Posted by ssscales

Breeder A sells his Spider BP for $2000, Breeder B is asking $3500 for the same quality Spider.

Both are good breeders, same tubs, same feeder supplier, both bought their adults from the same well known breeder 3yrs ago, both will answer your questions on breeding, care, etc, etc, etc.

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I don't see how this is even possible unless Breeder A isn't paying taxes??? Breeder B didn't pull that $3500 price out of thin air ... it's a price based on the breeders overhead (tubs, feeders, cost of spending time on the phone answering questions, etc) ... Breeder B isn't charging $1500 more than the bottom of the pile guys because he/she "likes" squeezing money out of his/her customers, he/she is doing it because that is the value of the animal.

I also don't agree that Breeder A selling those snakes for $1500 less spends the same amount of time answering questions on breeding, care, etc, etc, etc ... I actually know that for a fact to be incorrect, because I get the calls from the people that bought from Breeder A asking for help when breeder A isn't around or even when Breeder A has the balls (pythons) to tell his customers to call a big breeder for help (Kara and I were just talking about this).

The other thing I have witnessed is that Breeder A selling his animals for $1500 less than everyone else is far less likely to stand behind them if something goes wrong ... The big guys charging the real market value factor in things like replacing an animal that dies in transit due to carrier error, taking care of unexpected tragedies like an animal rolling 6 months after purchase because it had tumors that know one could have known about, and no questions asked returns if the customer isn't 100% happy with the way the animal looks when it shows up. The vast majority of the people you read or hear about being not happy with their deals are the ones that bought from the cheaper breeder. That's not an attempt to discredit anyone, you can go out on the BOI and see it as fact any day of the week.

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Originally Posted by ssscales

Breeder B has a few choices:
1) Lower his prices.

2) Discredit breeder A.

3) Hope someone justifies paying an extra $1500, 75% more than breeder A.

4) Shelf those animals till they are older or someone eventually buys them.

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1. Nothing wrong with lowering prices if you need to, but if that's your choice, why not offer the deals to your existing customers that have supported your business? Why give strangers "first crack" at lower prices on the classifieds instead of supporting the people that support you?

2. That's just a part of business and it happens all the time. Some people choose to send a positive message, others negative. Personally, if an individual wants to leave money on the table with every snake they sell, that's there problem ... but, as someone that supports the market and has hundreds of customers that have invested money into ball pythons, I do feel a responsibility to them to fight the bargain basement mentality in order to help them protect their investments ... something I am sure Jimmy could not care less about … good breeders will help their customers protect their investments.

3. Rarely have I ever seen a price difference that large ... Breeder A might not have any business sense at all, but he/she isn't blind.

4. Nothing wrong with shelving animals ... :D ... I just sold a nice sized group of 05's, at above my 2005 asking price ... So not only did I make more than Jimmy did last year, I made way more than he's going to make this year on those animals .... I like it! ;)

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Originally Posted by ssscales

It's like sitting in the Sears board room listening to VP's complain about Wal-Mart and Target prices. While they sit and complain about Wal-Mart, Wal-Mart grew another $10Billion.

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LOL ... If one of these bargain basement breeders rises out of the ashes and turns into the Wal-Mart of the ball python world, I will never say another word about low prices ... but I promise you that won't happen ... breeding snakes costs money ... taxes alone are 50 cents on the dollar ... racks, feeders, payroll, etc ... Wal-Mart can charge those prices because they are selling in such enormous volume that they can still make money after covering their overhead ... Jimmy is neither producing in volume or "truly" covering his overhead ... he's just pretending to be a snake breeder ... and sooner or later he'll be gone. ;) … and when he is gone, all of his customers will come running to the big breeders with their questions. :P

You're absolutely right ... it is a free market ... Jimmy or anyone can sell their snakes for whatever they want ... and just as they can do that, I can get on my soap box and tell whoever will listen that you can make money and be successful without doing that ... which in the end means more money in your own pocket … Smart right? :D ... I'm making money ... lots of it ... selling snakes for their true market value ... do you think I really care about what Jimmy is selling his snakes for? ... Nope, he's nobody to me ... What I do care about is my friends/customers and people that are as passionate about ball pythons as I am who believe that the only way they can "compete" is by lowering their prices .... It's just not true ... and I'm a living example. ;)

-adam

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Originally Posted by Melicious

Ssscales: I buy my hets from people I know, just at a cheaper price. The two males I bought from Ian are great boys so I'm very pleased with the quality of his snakes. I will, however, when I have the money, buy most of my homozygous kids from people like Adam. -Shrugs.-

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Maybe I look at it the other way around.........I've seen Adam's numbering and record-keeping system, NOTHING is getting mixed up over there and he could probably trace back some babies to 2-3 generations of parents. I'd be relatively more hesitant about buying hets from a wholesaler like Ian G, who would NEVER intentionally mix things up, but doesn't give the kind of personal attention other breeders do. I'm not saying Ian sold you normals, I'm just saying in my mind there's enough of a chance to move me to look elsewhere.

Now, as far as a homozygous animal goes...if you find one that you really really like and its not from a known breeder, you take a gamble on the health of the animal or the post-sale support, but at least you know for certain the genetics of what you are buying.

just my $1.55....

If Hadrian turns out to be normal, I spent a good amount of money on a beautiful male ball with gorgeous blushing.
And I knew in the beginning when I got into this hobby that I'd take a chance here and there. I do, however, have a little bit of sense. The first time I spoke to Adam on the phone, he spent an hour calming me down because I used a technique of his concerning a shed. THAT is when I knew that any of my high-dollar snakes would be coming from him. Just need the dough. O_O That, and I might hit Vaughn up here and there because he "seems" like a level-headed, ball-loving guy.

We all take risks in this hobby. I did with Hadrian, and I'm willing to see it pan out. If I get a few clutches of normals, then I still learned from my experience and I'll still have a beautiful clutch of babies. That's just as important to me as the possibility of albinos.

If you are happy with what you have, then its all worth it. Chances are, that one of those possible het girls you'll eventually produce won't turn out to be a possible at all...all of the sudden you'll have a visible morph AND get to change "poss" to "100%" !

Or...I'll spend the first six years of this breeding project banging my head against a wall. ^_^ Either way, I've got three healthy, beautiful scale kids who have just recently eaten and are nice and plump. I'm happy, I'm hoping they're relatively content, and that's all that matters.

Whether they're het or not, I hope they inherit Hadrian's beautiful blush and Ophelia's "abnormally" long tail stripe. ^_^

I would be amazed if 30% of the people on KS that are advertising are paying any taxes for their sale. How many of them actually have an LLC set up or any type of company license? These are mostly private sellers that maybe bought 1-2 Pastels last year for $1500-$2000, 8-10 normals as babies for $300-$600, they reproduced 30-50 babies, about 1/2 being Pastels and now they want to turn them around for $300 a pop. Should we take them outside of Daytona and beat the crap out of them?


Should we tell everyone how these guys will rip them off or will sell them sick animals?

Or have most of us forgotten how happy we were when we hatched that 1st clutch? Made that 1st $20.00 bill from that 1st Corn snake or Kingsnake clutch we hatched and sold for the 1st time?

I don't know, I think when it ALL becomes about $$$ and only $$$, we lose something. Sure, we all like to make money and $2000 is better than $20.00, but when every thread out there in every forum is about the market or prices or investment, it's somewhat disappointing.

I will admit, I've watched Ball Pythons develop into something amazing over the years! I was originally drawn into Ball Pythons for all the morphs, developments and new possibilities at 1st, but along the way I started thinking $$$$$$$$$$$!!

Buy two males of this and two males of that to back the 1st up, 10-20 females off the bat. I was already thinking of Super Pastels, Bumble Bees, Albinos, Pieds and have felt myself moving away from "WOW, I love those morphs and would love to reproduce them" to "how many can I put on the shelf/reproduce in 2-3-5 years?".

Don't pay me any mind, I just lost track of why I love these fascinating creatures and why working with them is a pleasure.

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Originally Posted by sho220

What about those who aren't interested in an animal as an investment? Is the average Joe Ball Python hobbyist ever going to be able to afford anything other than "normals"? I would love to have a spider, but I'm not willing to turn this "hobby" into a "job" just to make it happen...If Jimmy doesn't start breeding Spiders am I SOL??? :)

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a few years ago, i saw a bumble bee and a super. they blew me away! then i saw the price tag, i thought this had to be a mistake (20k, then). no way could i afford that. but i could afford a nice pastel male(1k), and some normal girls to raise up. did just that,bred him and hatched some babies. i can sell/trade these babies to get stuff i want and upgrade my collection to where i want it to be. if you can't afford what you want, get what you can afford. raise them up,breed them, make extra money to get what you want! like anything else it takes hard work and patience, and a little luck. or you could get a second job? i like breeding balls alot more!!!


vaughn

I just wanted to say that this is probably the best thread that I have ever read concerning snake markets. Great input guys.

We have to stay in line about this stuff over here or else Adam comes down on us harder than a high school chick in the back seat after prom.

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Originally Posted by kavmon

a few years ago, i saw a bumble bee and a super. they blew me away! then i saw the price tag, i thought this had to be a mistake (20k, then). no way could i afford that. but i could afford a nice pastel male(1k), and some normal girls to raise up. did just that,bred him and hatched some babies. i can sell/trade these babies to get stuff i want and upgrade my collection to where i want it to be. if you can't afford what you want, get what you can afford. raise them up,breed them, make extra money to get what you want! like anything else it takes hard work and patience, and a little luck. or you could get a second job? i like breeding balls alot more!!!


vaughn

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I see what you're saying vaughn...I've seen it all before in other hobbies...If you're 30-40 and male you probably remember the little Hot Wheels cars...well...alot of those little toys sell for thousands...anyway...

Just seems that in ball pythons, the breeders are selling to the breeders...eventually, won't all those interested in breeding have what they need? Won't the market become saturated, causing prices to fall, not through the floor but to a price point attainable for some of us? I'd gladly pay up to $700 for a Spider!!!

Please take this with a grain of salt..this is all from a newbies perspective :)

eventually prices will come down, how much?, who knows!


i'm not sure if i will ever have all the balls i need! lol every year more morphs,combos and crosses are hatched out. i liked bumblebees,supers. now i really like killer bees and blue eyed lucies, kingpins,pewters,super phantom yellowbelly! pastels were out in 1997, now they are under 1k for the most part. other morphs will follow suit but it will take some time. maybe with more people breeding the supply will increase some more, but with all the new morphs fueling everything? who knows, more breeders=more buyers? i can tell you hatching morphs is alot more enjoyable than some hobbies or jobs!!!


vaughn

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Originally Posted by muddoc

I just wanted to say that this is probably the best thread that I have ever read concerning snake markets. Great input guys.

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Lemme just say I started it!! lalalalala!!! but this thread moved off my original topic pretty fast :P

Just one question for you breeders. What do you do with all the normals you hatch out??? there must be a lot. Pet stores? are there that many ppl buying normals? or do you have a lot of stockpiled normals?

Alex,
This is our first year hatching out anything. However, you can bet that I will keep all of the Normal Females that I produce, and as far as males, I haven't hatched one yet, but I already have three people waiting for Normal Males. So, they do sell, sometimes faster and sometimes you have to hold on to them for a while.

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Originally Posted by sho220

Just seems that in ball pythons, the breeders are selling to the breeders...eventually, won't all those interested in breeding have what they need? Won't the market become saturated, causing prices to fall, not through the floor but to a price point attainable for some of us? I'd gladly pay up to $700 for a Spider!!!

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Look at all the posters on here... all future or current ball python breeders who will have friends who see what they're into and want to get into breeding as well. Yeah, prices will always drop given the eventual supply, but the more people we get into the industry the more demand which keeps prices higher. I love this stuff!

Go tell your friends about ball python morphs and breeding! Make it a chain letter that if you delete it, it will burn when you pee. THAT'S how to keep the market flooded with breeders!!