Breeders and minimal feeding

I've seen a few ads floating around for '05 Balls that are 200+ grams. Is it just me, or is that very small for this far into '06? Do a lot of breeders try to get by with feeding the least amount as possible to save on the feeding bill, or would this small size indicate a picky eater?

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Originally Posted by xdeus

I've seen a few ads floating around for '05 Balls that are 200+ grams. Is it just me, or is that very small for this far into '06? Do a lot of breeders try to get by with feeding the least amount as possible to save on the feeding bill, or would this small size indicate a picky eater?

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Funny you should mention this! :) (Only to me... not an inside joke or anything.. but I was just thinking about this today..)

I have three late 05's that I received in Feb that never miss a meal, and they're all sub 300g. I also have other 05's (late, early, middle, etc..) that are around 800-900.. and a CH pet store male that's over 1300. So... it looks like I range the gambit of all different sizes.

Hope this helps...

Thanks for the info. I expect some Balls to be on the smallish side, but that would probably be the exception rather than the rule. It just seems like I've seen a lot of ads with small '05 Balls, and I wonder how much has to do with the breeders just getting by with the minimum until they can sell them.

My smallest girl is an '05 and has always been a picky eater, but even she is between 400-500 grams.

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Originally Posted by xdeus

My smallest girl is an '05 and has always been a picky eater, but even she is between 400-500 grams.

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Ditto here ... I have 1 or 2 picky ones from 05 that are at least 400 grams ... I can't believe it when I see 05's up for sale at 200 grams!!

I feed every snake like I'm keeping it for myself and by now I think everyone knows that I LOVE big balls pythons! :twisted:

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Ditto here ... I have 1 or 2 picky ones from 05 that are at least 400 grams ... I can't believe it when I see 05's up for sale at 200 grams!!


-adam

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So what do you think is the cause of this? is it poor genetics, poor husbandry, minimal feeding as previously suggested? any insights on this?

One thing that I have noticed is the "05" is a broad range. I have purchased a hand full of "05" CB ball pythons this year that range from being born in month 3 all the way to month 11. Some balls also grow at vastly different rates with the same food consumption. All of mine share the same setup, eat the same food types/quantities on the same day with no missed meals and some grow slower or faster than others. Just like any other living creature I guess.


I have an albino ball that was born in month 11 of 2005 at 74 grams and is now 230ish grams. He eats every single week and is as healthy as the next ball python. I don't see much wrong with that.

I am not a breeder but this has been my limited experience.

Hey now!!!! I have two lil boys that I feed on a regular basis that were born Sept. 2, 2005 that weigh 170g (Percy) and 250+g (Gambit)....what're you tryin' ta say??????!!!

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Originally Posted by 4theSNAKElady

Hey now!!!! I have two lil boys that I feed on a regular basis that were born Sept. 2, 2005 that weigh 170g (Percy) and 250+g (Gambit)....what're you tryin' ta say??????!!!

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That still seems very light to me. Even if they ate a small rat pup once a week: 36 weeks x 20 grams = 720 grams of food and they only gained 100-150 grams? :confused:

well, Percy did have a rough start on life...he refused to to eat his first three months of life and I had to resort to forcefeeding because he started losing weight. He is now starting to make up for lost time though, and is eating two mice now every week instead of one. the other lil guy eats one or two mice every week or so and I haven't weighed him lately so he may be closer to the 300g mark.....but regardless, i can assure you that I do NOT starve my snakes....esp my own babies. i have a girl I got in Feb., who was 268g who is now 482g, another girl i got last month who was 606g, and is now 722g. Both little males look healthy to me, drink eat, poop, shed,slither around, do all the normal things all my other BPs do...both have beautiful colors and markings and do not in the least little bit look thin to me... if I could make them grow any faster i would....but all I can do is just keep offering what I offer....one or two mice (whichever they want to eat) every week or so.

I didn't mean to imply that you weren't taking care of your snakes. I apologize if that's the way I came across. I don't think you're starving them by any means. My point of this message was that I have been seeing a lot of breeder ads with small Balls for '05s, and although I don't think any of them are being "starved", I feel that the breeders could be feeding them more than they have been. I understand there will always be light snakes due to picky eaters, late starters, etc. but not to the extent of the number of ads that are out there.

OK thanks X.......I feel better now......I may say it upsets me though if someone thought I was not properly taking care of my snakes..at any rate, I love my lil guys.....:giggle: I think small balls are cute!

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Originally Posted by Uncle Festae

So what do you think is the cause of this? is it poor genetics, poor husbandry, minimal feeding as previously suggested? any insights on this?

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I have no 05's that are that small, so I can only speculate. Poor genetics could be the case for a small number ... I truely believe that in the day and age of high dollar ball morphs more "runts" are saved from what would naturally be certain death ... not every egg/hatchling is meant to survive.

Other than that it could be a later breeding schedule, more lax feeding routine, etc ... it's not like these animals "need" to eat every single week ... if a breeder makes that choice, great, but if not, the snake will still do just as well ... it will just take longer ;) ... as long as they are healthy and eating, I don't see the big deal with it if the price is right ... but two equally priced 05 morphs, hets, whatever of the same type and sex, and one weighs 350 grams more, the choice is a no brainer for me.

-adam

I would have to assume genetics since it would not be in the best interest of a breeder to keep a snake small at all. The larger they are, the more they can charge.

Thanks for your input Adam, greatly appreciated. So, in your opinion, if a breeder is selling 25 snakes all of different lines, morphs and parentage and they all fall into the "low weight range" we are discussing, would that then lead you to believe its related to feeding in some way, and not genetics (i.e...runts, poor bloodlines) and would you think that such animals could be brought up to "par" with a more appropriate feeding regimen? this really piques my interest because I know with the large fish I breed and keep, this type of situation usually leads to "stunting" and is for the most part irreversible, the damage is done....... everyone elses thoughts, input, and exeperiences are welcome here too! dont be shy ,:)

I'll chime in. Adam has oodles more experience than I, but from what I've seen/heard is that reptiles do not get stunted. I've seen some older snakes, especially Boa Constrictors, that are much smaller than they should be because of a conservative feeding approach. However, when they get into an environment where they are fed more frequently they tend to have a growth spurt until they get to their pre-programmed size. Just my :twocents:

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Originally Posted by Uncle Festae

Thanks for your input Adam, greatly appreciated. So, in your opinion, if a breeder is selling 25 snakes all of different lines, morphs and parentage and they all fall into the "low weight range" we are discussing, would that then lead you to believe its related to feeding in some way, and not genetics (i.e...runts, poor bloodlines) and would you think that such animals could be brought up to "par" with a more appropriate feeding regimen? this really piques my interest because I know with the large fish I breed and keep, this type of situation usually leads to "stunting" and is for the most part irreversible, the damage is done....... everyone elses thoughts, input, and exeperiences are welcome here too! dont be shy ,:)

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I agree with Lawrence ... I don't think that "stunting" is an issue ... at least with ball pythons (my experience is way more limited with other herps) .... sooner or later they'll catch up ... that said, "par" when it comes to a bp's weight is a very subjective area ... who's to say that 250 grams at 11 months old isn't in the long actually better for the animal. Even though most of my 05's are 400+ grams I'll be the first one to get up on a soap box and yell that many of the problems with fasting ball pythons in captivity are related to the fact that there is no way that ball pythons evolved to have a metabolism designed to deal with consuming a prey item 52 weeks out of the year.

I'm personally torn on the issue, I love to feed my snakes and the watch my babies grow, but I also acknowledge that it might be too much ... I guess in the end I don't feel that an 05 listed this time of year at 200 or 250 grams is "wrong", just different that how I would do it ... which is totally cool. ;)

When I said ...

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I can't believe it when I see 05's up for sale at 200 grams!!

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I meant it more as ... "cause good or bad, I can't seem to stop wanting to feed mine" ;)

-adam