Snakes keep getting sick..

Ok well this started 8 months ago when I bought my female dumerils boa. When I got her home I realised she had an RI.. a bad one. Nice of the people to sell me a sick snake.

Now 8 months and over $1000 later she is still sick. We first tried the antibiotic Amakacin.. sorta maybe worked, then Fortaz. That worked. Hey, look she's better! Two weeks later, she's bubbling and wheezing again. Ok, we try Amakacin AND Fortaz.. she's mostly better. Few days later, she's worse. Get another round (another $100 to the vet) she's mostly better.. get another round ($100) she's mostly better.. but not quite.. and here we are.

About a month ago my male surinam boa started bubbling. Go to vet.. $180 get Fortaz.. at this point he seems better again.

A week after the surinam goes, my female roughscaled sand boa has an RI. She's still on Fortaz now, and seems to be getting better..?

Now.. I have a specked king I think may have a RI, and tonight I see that my female blood has one too.

What is going on?!! I can not afford this much longer.. My ambient temps in both herp rooms (there is a quarantine room which is filling up) is 80-84 degrees all the time. Everyone is either in a rack or boaphile cage and is on flexwatt with thermostats. Cages cleaned every week.. I use disposable water dishes replaced every week for everyone but the big snakes which have theirs disinfected weekly. I wash my hands very thoroughly before and after handling any snake, and I always deal with the established collection before quarantines.

I am at a loss and am very frustrated at this point. Oh, and I think my BP is sick too.

Oh and one more.. my hog island is a mystery. I spent about $1000 on her at the vet too thinking she's got RI.. nothing worked. We tried three antibiotics, and did a lung wash.. nothing worked. Well, she had rubbed her nose so badly that she has no nostrils anymore, so she breathes with her mouth open.. so we don't even know if she's sick (bubbly red mouth) or just has issues because she has no nose.

Run your QT room at a minimum 84-85 all the time..make sure your sick snakes are in as big a cage as you can possibly manage, whether rubbermaid tubs or otherwise. Give them room to stretch out & prop up...give them hides to prop up on, etc.

What is your disinfectant, and what are you using for contact time?

K~

Right now the temp is 85.6 degrees.

They have large cages and multiple hides.

I use chlorhexadine mixed twice as strong as the instructions say and I leave it on for several minutes.

get with becky or adam, you might have to have cultures done to find out exactly what they have? i've heard of snakes being immune to certain meds and certain meds not working on all types of ri...



vaughn

Yeah, I did a culture on the female dumeril.. as well as the hog island. Super expensive and both came back as 'no growth' ..further frustration. You know, I do my best to be a good snake mom, and I have nothing but trouble. Everyone laughs at me for using gloves between each snake, and washing my hands 10000 times.. they don't get it.

shelby we aren't laughing... we are crying with you! this sucks.

i have no suggestions except to assure you... you ARE a great snake mom.

hugs and more hugs

Ditto...sending you big hugs. I hope they get better (and stay better!) soon. /hug

I wonder if there is some general irritant in the environment that they are all exposed to, to some degree or another? Some cleaning material...incense...candles...room fresheners...cigarette smoke...or outside pollutant that we can't avoid letting into our homes....?


It might be a bit pricey to get one that really works, but maybe you could get an air purifier for the room(s) they are in? See if that helps to clear things up? And of course, get rid of any possible source that you have control over, such as candles or whatnot.

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Originally Posted by JLC

I wonder if there is some general irritant in the environment that they are all exposed to, to some degree or another? Some cleaning material...incense...candles...room fresheners...cigarette smoke...or outside pollutant that we can't avoid letting into our homes....?

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If it started 8 months ago with a sick snake brought into the collection/quarantine, I find it "most likely" that the problems are cross contamination related more so than environmental.

Over the last 25 years, I've never seen a single case or RI caused by "Some cleaning material...incense...candles...room fresheners...cigarette smoke ... etc" ... not saying that it isn't "possible"' in this case, just that logically it's more likely to be related to the original sick animal.

I'd try another vet for the cultures, you should at least be able to identify the bug and try and trace it back to the original animal. Unfortunately, I don't know a thing about anti-biotic protocols in anything but ball pythons. If your ball pops positive on a culture, I can certainly do my best to help.

-adam

Just trying to come up with different possibilities. Granted, if a particular snake came into the collection already sick, it is more likely that some bug is spreading...but if cultures are coming back negative and standard treatments aren't working...it never hurts to look at alternative possibilities. I don't imagine candles and such would bother reptiles, as a general rule...but there are some strong stuff out there that people use to "freshen" their homes and I just wondered if such a list might jog a memory of something new coming into the home right about the same time the first sick snake did.

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Originally Posted by JLC

Just trying to come up with different possibilities.

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That's cool. Every little bit helps! :D :sweeet:

If it were me, I'd focus on the bug. :partyon:

-adam

Well Judy I don't have anything like that anyway.. as we keep birds which are very sensitive to anything in the air. No air fresheners or candles (cat would probably knock it over and burn the house down anyway ha)

I think you're right Adam.. the RI is spreading somehow. Unfortunately the quarantine room is separated from the main herp room only by a hallway.. no doors even.

My issue is.. with everyone dropping like flies, each snake I have to take in to my vet I have to pay a $55 office fee, and then the antibiotics (fortaz is expensive stuff too.. $100 for three weeks for the dumeril) So figure 100 at the minimum for each snake that has to go in.. with 26 snakes that sure does add up.. then if the antibiotic doesn't work, it's back again.

I guess vets need to see each individual snake in order to prescribe antibiotics even if they all likely have the same bug.. correct? I wish I could just buy a bottle of the antibiotic and dose them myself.. but alas no.

So.. the cultures we did were obtained through a lung wash. The other vet I know of was going to swab the gook from around the glottis and culture that.. is the second vet's method inferior or would it work just as well? (hopefully better as the lung washes yielded nothing)

The odd thing to me is that no other snake showed any sickness for months after I had that dumeril.. now just a month or so ago it seems to be spreading like gangbusters.. and I have gotten stricter in my quarantine procedures too. It's just not making sense to me.

I would find a new/better vet ... explain the situation and see if they'll work with you .. a $55 office visit fee "per snake" is just silly ... all they can really do is weigh the animal and make up a file.

A good "reptile vet" would know better.

-adam

Yeah.. he seems very knowledgeable.. but who knows. I can't afford to pay that much.. I need a volume discount or something.. ha.

Adam do vets usually obtain culture 'matter' by swabbing the inside of the mouth?

it also may be worth your while to do a phone consult with dr. scott stahl www.seavs.com he is a super nice guy and is up to date on the latest reptile care/treatments.

he can also consult with your local vet, just trying to help.


vaughn

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Originally Posted by Shelby

Adam do vets usually obtain culture 'matter' by swabbing the inside of the mouth?

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For RI's, I do mine inside the trachea ... it's the "tube" inside the mouth on the front of the lower jaw.

-adam

If you are a regular customer and explain the situation with you vet, most do give group discounts. If all animals are sick with same problem they will sometimes charge one office visit for multiples and will usually work out payment arrangements if you are strapped for cash. Take the time and talk it over with him. Normally they don't offer discounts unless you ask.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

For RI's, I do mine inside the trachea ... it's the "tube" inside the mouth on the front of the lower jaw.

-adam

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Ok.. I just wonder if the lung wash is worth the $170 or whatever it was.. to obtain the culture matter.

I could ask my current vet for a discount.. but as I think of it, he seems to go the round about more expensive route with things (ie lung wash instead of swabbing the trachea, and wanted to do a stomach tube to worm the snakes when Becky told me how to worm them myself.)

I had taken one snake to this second vet before.. I think I will call that office tomorrow and talk to him, see if he can help me out.

I feel somewhat uncomfortable taking more than one sick snake in at the same time.. I guess I'm afraid that if it isn't the same thing, the they will get each other sicker. Am I being too conservative here?

I think the lung wash was a little over the top. Sounds like a vet that doesn't have a lot of confidence/experience swabbing? Although I don't want to judge without knowing the whole story and seeing the snakes first hand.

I would take them all and ask if you could pay for a single office visit.

Put each one in it's own box and wash your hands very well between each ... sounds like things can't get much worse ... time to be aggressive getting things worked out.

-adam

Shelby,how far are you from Peoria? The reason i am asking this is my vet in Peoria is well knowledgable when it comes to reptiles.They try to work with you as best as they can and they dont go for the expensive treatments.If you want his info pm me and i will give you the info.Good luck,you and yours are in our prayers for health improvement.

Are RIs always caused by bacteria? or can viruses cause them too?


Does the vet try different types of culture medium to identify the (possible) bacteria?

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

Are RIs always caused by bacteria? or can viruses cause them too?

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Bacteria is by far the most common, but they can be viral. I don't think that I've ever personally seen a viral RI in a ball python, but I'm sure it's possible.

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

Does the vet try different types of culture medium to identify the (possibe) bacteria?

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I send my cultures out to a lab that is very good at pinpointing bugs. With particularly nasty bugs I'll use multiple labs for a comparison.

-adam

SoI take it that it is very easy to distinguish the two general types.......color of mucus differs between viral and bacterial RI?

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

SoI take it that it is very easy to distinguish the two general types.......color of mucus differs between viral and bacterial RI?

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I don't get into it on that level ... The labs I use are solid ... They give me the break down of what bug we're fighting and what is effective against it or what it is resistant to.

Maybe if there's someone here that works in a lab culturing snake mucus they'd be able to "talk turkey" with you. ;)

Wish I could be more help.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I don't get into it on that level ... The labs I use are solid ... They give me the break down of what bug we're fighting and what is effective against it or what it is resistant to.

Maybe if there's someone here that works in a lab culturing snake mucus they'd be able to "talk turkey" with you. ;)

Wish I could be more help.

-adam

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Sorry I misunderstood ur original post....

so you've never seen a viral RI because your labs have never shown those results....got it...thought you meant you could tell almost right away.

would most vets appoarch this level of throughness with reptiles? Or is it just really hard to find a good herp vets?

If the animials still appear sick and they arent finding the bug I would ask them to try different culturing conditions

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

so you've never seen a viral RI because your labs have never shown those results....got it...thought you meant you could tell almost right away.

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Right. They've all cultured for bacteria or were cleared up with anti-biotics ... so no viral ... but they do exist ... I don't have an online refernece for viral respiratory infections off the top of my head, but I remember reading about them and discussing them with my vets.

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

would most vets appoarch this level of throughness with reptiles? Or is it just really hard to find a good herp vets?

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It's really hard ... just like on the internet, there are a lot of them with "book knowledge", but few with good amounts of "hands on" experience.

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

If the animials still appear sick and they arent finding the bug I would ask them to try different culturing conditions

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Roger that. ;)

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I don't have an online refernece for viral respiratory infections off the top of my head, but I remember reading about them and discussing them with my vets.

-adam

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If anyone cares viral RIs can be caused by Reoviruses

See citations at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...arch&DB=pubmed


Did any vets say if there is anything you can do about these nasties?

EDIT: Link didnt work.....sorry about that...just type in Reptiles and Reovirus in the search bar and your find the papers I was trying to link too

I do not live near Peoria.. but thanks for the offer on that. I will go to the second vet, I think.. and take all of the snakes that I think may be ill.

Problem is, I think 'these snakes are all well' then the next week one of them starts showing RI symptoms. So.. I could take all the snakes that are sick now, but next week I might have to take another. Ah well.. you do what you can.

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

Did any vets say if there is anything you can do about these nasties?

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Not that I remember off the top of my head ... I have file cabinets full of notes that I know have records of my discussions (I'm a nut for taking and keeping notes and data), but I've got my security guys coming for an upgrade to the system at my shop and a Freedom Breeder delivery to tackle tomorrow and I'm about to rack out ... maybe next time if I remember.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Shelby

Problem is, I think 'these snakes are all well' then the next week one of them starts showing RI symptoms. So.. I could take all the snakes that are sick now, but next week I might have to take another. Ah well.. you do what you can.

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Dont know if this is feasible but maybe you should try to take all of the them even the ones not showing any symptoms currently and have the cultures ran on the whole collection.

Not entirely feasible fitting 26 snakes (that's over 85' of snake) in my mom's little toyota. Not to mention I'd be getting definitely ill snakes in close contact with probably well snakes.

plus that.. discount or no, I don't think I can afford 26 cultures. I will talk to the vet and see what he can do for me and what he thinks the best course of action is.

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

Dont know if this is feasible but maybe you should try to take all of the them even the ones not showing any symptoms currently and have the cultures ran on the whole collection.

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The problem with that is that you'll probably find bacteria in animals that are showing no outward symptoms of illness. It's kind of like gut flora ... there will always be some measurable amount of bacteria in most snakes lungs ... it's the strength of their immune system vs. concentration of the bacteria that makes them sick ... cultures can't measure "how heavy", only present or not present and my guess would be that they would almost all come back present ... even in snakes that would otherwise never show any outward signs of illness.

I've been down that road and it doesn't lead anywhere.

-adam

Your right, just thinking out loud....

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

cultures can't measure "how heavy", only present or not present and my guess would be that they would almost all come back present

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Nice I like how you put that......I might use that someday :)

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

Nice I like how you put that......I might use that
someday :)

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Well, don't credit me ... I wouldn't want to ruin my rep by letting anyone think I was getting soft on the "all science, no marketing" crowd. ;)

ROCK ON!

-adam

In the past we would have numerous animals come down with a bug. We would randomly select ones to have a culture done. In your case 3 or 4 would be a good sampling. If all test positive for same bug treat entire group at same time. My be required twice to kick it. Good luck with them. No sense in hauling them all around and stressing the further.

Well I think all vets must see each individual animal before they can prescribe an antibiotic. I wish I could just do that, Nancy..

Vets do it all the time. I have done this numerous times in the past when multiple animals came down with same symptons. Now, if your vet will do it is another story. If you take as good of care as you claim, it's not likely that they are coming down with different problems. I don't see where it would hurt if you had a perfectly healthy one get the meds. When you have as many as you do it doesn't seem to work well unless all possibly infected animals are treated. If you play around to long trying to treat each indiv. snake it can be passed back and forth , never clearing totally up till you lose your snakes from stress.

Yeah exactly.. that is what I fear.

Hm.. anyone else have input on this? I would like to do this if my vet would let me.. the issue is though I've got some tiny baby colubrids, I can't imagine giving them injections. I know I asked about this before.. but I read about giving baytril orally or in the drinking water as an antibiotic. Could this be an option.. can other antibiotics be given orally?

The only thing bad about putting it in the drinking water is you never know are they getting enough or to much?? I don't know if the particular med can be given orally, but if so you would be better off giving it by syringe in the mouth. Some antibiotics are safe to put in drinking water others need to be measured closer to be safe.

If you end up dosing entire group make sure you let vet know the kind of snake and an exact weight for each. It is very important that they get as much info on each. I took a little notebook to the vet with weight, ages, etc

Yeah that was what I was planning on doing. I'll weigh each one on my gram scale and write species and age if known.

I wouldn't think it'd be safe to give antibiotics to snakes so small as a baby colubrid unless it's given orally. With a needle you could puncture an organ or just go straight through the snake so easy!

The best syringes I find are the shot syringes. Easy to draw up the meds and the needle just screws off for a nice oral syringe. Well happy birthday again and maybe things will start turning around for you.

You sure couldn't puncture an organ with a 25 or a 27g, LoL. Snake would think it rubbed up against bedding(carefresh at that) and the shot would be done and over with.

Baytril can be given orally. I use the 100mg/ml solution with my rats all of the time. It absorbs quicker via the intestinal lining rather than injection. Injections of Baytril often cause burns, abscesses and scarring, unless you inject some sterile saline or lactated ringers solution in the area before you inject the Baytril. It's not a tissue-friendly drug. Mine have always tolerated it very well when given orally(mammals, not reptiles).

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

Baytril can be given orally. I use the 100mg/ml solution with my rats all of the time. It absorbs quicker via the intestinal lining rather than injection. Injections of Baytril often cause burns, abscesses and scarring, unless you inject some sterile saline or lactated ringers solution in the area before you inject the Baytril. It's not a tissue-friendly drug. Mine have always tolerated it very well when given orally(mammals, not reptiles).

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Not sure about other snakes, but I've been told that oral anti-biotics and ball pythons don't really work. The word is that they have very very low absorption rates of anti-biotics given orally. Every vet that I have ever had has told me this over and over, but I don't remember why exactly that they have such a hard time absorbing anti-biotics orally. That said I've had some solid success recently using Zithromax in conjunction with either Baytril or Fortaz for tought RI's.

Baytril at 100mg/ml is some nasty stuff ... for balls, 22.7mg/ml is much easier on the skin/muscle. I think for larger animals 100mg/ml is probably a must, but avoid it if you can for the smaller guys.

-adam

Here is what I use to treat all my snakes i get in that are sick.


.2ml/cc per 200grams the snake. Oxytetracycline If under 200 grams I use half the dose all around. and I use it for 2 weeks every other day. 7 injections in 2 weeks and then I leave them to their own. I have never had to retreat any snake or reptile with RI or RI symptoms using this guideline.

Now I dont know if your vet will just give you the meds and let you sort it. (mine does as he knows i know how to inject and get things sorted) I just go to my vet and ask for so many mls of the antibiotic and he measures it out and gives it to me.

Hope this helps,
Beauty the BP

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Originally Posted by Beauty the BP

Now I dont know if your vet will just give you the meds and let you sort it. (mine does as he knows i know how to inject and get things sorted) I just go to my vet and ask for so many mls of the antibiotic and he measures it out and gives it to me.

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Here in the states, anti-biotics are a regulated medication and "technically" can't just be given out. I don't want to cross any lines here, but April should definitely talk to a handful of vets and find someone that knows what they are doing and that can work with her situation. ;)

-adam

Well there are only two vets in my area that I know about.. I've checked the listings and everything.

Adam if a vet was going to let me get antibiotics for my entire collection even though he'd only seen a few sick ones, would that be illegal? I mean do they have to see every single snake? That brings me back to the problem of getting one snake well, and another sick one gets another sick.. then you get the sick one well, and it gets sick again from another one.

Becky - so there is a needle that would be safe to inject a baby colubrid with?

Now I know this one isnt BAd, I use insulin needles. very fine sharp and they barely if at all notice til its over.

I know about the differences in countries adam. And I wasnt trying to say go get it like I do, I was saying that this antibiotic does the trick for me. I am sorry if I came across as saying any different.

I only get the stuff because the nearest reptile vet is a 4 hour drive. and I confer with her alot via phone and she tells the local vet here to just give me the stuff...........lol

If it were possible i would send shelby over the exact amount she needed to treat her snakes. but it isnt. that would be breaking a number of international laws as well as a few US ones.

But if the ther antibiotics are so expensive, I would look into seeing if the vet could offer the oxytetra- .

I get snakes so congested from RI they can barely breath let along think of eating. This is what I give them and with in 2 weeks you see a very big improvment.

Beauty the BP

Wow, I am sorry to hear about your babies being sick :( I myself had a few bouts of mties in the past year (well, my snakes, not me lol) and it was so discouraging and frustrating. When they are all healthy again you'll be releved, I wish you's luck .

my vet will just give me what i need, work out how much for each depending on weight and voila, i'm buying in bulk.

anyway, my suggestion is: does your vet do home visits? ours does. he'll come to the house for one fee and work on any and all pets who need his attention... really saves you money when you are needing care for multiple animals.