desperate .. new owner in need of help

Hi everyone... i am fairly new to the snake world. So i'll give you a little intro then tell you the problem :(
I got two hatchling ball pythons about a month and a half ago, Butterscotch and Caramel. They seem to be the exact opposites. Butterscotch is very healthy and eats on a regular basis, but Caramel has been treated for worms and a mild RI. I assume that butterscotch is the older of the two simply by a size comparison... she was considerable larger than Caramel when i bought them. I followed the directions for enclosure heat and humidity.
Caramel is currently being treated for an RI with injectable antibiotics and has been force fed three times (which is not great, i know) ... but she is still not showing interest in eating on her own... but she is drinking and staying hydrated... I've tried putting her in a paper bag with the food and even the chicken broth trick... neither worked. She is now around two months old and should be eating on her own. I know its a common problem with balls but i was just wondering if anyone had any further suggestions or could tell me if there is a point where i should just give up (which i dread doing).
Thanks,
Lauren
Butterscotch is the larger one, caramel (the problem child) is the smaller one
http://photos-010.facebook.com/ip005...96010_3620.jpg

I loove Caramel!!!! she is a beautiful snake. My advice is this.....I would not give up on continually offering food. Forcefeeding is VERY stressful on a snake, and if perhaps you are to quick to start forcefeeding, then the process of getting them to eat on their own will take even longer. I know you are worried, but it looks like Caramel has good body wieght, and snakes can go without food for a lot longer than you think. I had a lil bugger outta the egg who took four months to start eating on his own!!! I had to forcefeed him three meals, only cause he was losing weight. My advice to you? Keep trying, offer a small live prey item every 10 days, don't handle her at all(I know it's hard), and get a gram scale to keep an eye on her wieght. (available at Walmart) Eventually, she'll come around..;)...they always do. Good luck and :welcome: to the forum too! Enjoy you're stay!!

Are they housed together or seperately?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by elevatethis

Are they housed together or seperately?

---

Took the words right out of my mouth! ;)

My money is on "together", we'll wait for them to respond though!

That was my supposition as well! ;)

... yeah they are together. i dont exactly have the space to house them separately... do you think i should make an effort to get them separated? I feed them separately... but they are indeed housed together

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lauren

Sorry guys... yeah they are together.

---

Thats the problem right there. The larger one has established dominance and the resulting stress on the little one is why its health is ailing.

If the smaller one has contracted RI, it is highly contagious and will eventually infect the other one.

Quote:

---

i dont exactly have the space to house them separately... do you think i should make an effort to get them separated?

---

You will need to make the space or re-home one of them. In your case, it's truely a matter of life and death for both of them.

That could be the problem.......what kind of caging do you have them in right now????

They are in a 10 gallon tank... yikes i had no idea that it would be that detrimental to their health to be housed together :/

Also, you mentioned that the smaller one has been treated for worms and an RI. Who is your vet and why didn't he/she tell you they should be seperated in the first place? There's no point in treating one of them for worms in RI when both ailments are just going to contract back and fourth between them while they are housed together.

keeping them together rasises the risk of butterscotch of geting sick from carmal i would consider geting puting them in different enclousers

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lauren

... yeah they are together. i dont exactly have the space to house them separately... do you think i should make an effort to get them separated? I feed them separately... but they are indeed housed together

---

Definitely. Balls can be stressed easily if certain conditions aren't met, and one of the stressors is competing for space/heat with another Ball. A cage doesn't have to be fancy nor expensive. Many people on this forum use plastic containers like the Rubbermaid or Sterilite shoe boxes and sweater boxes commonly found at Walmart.

If you can set them up individualy and with the proper temperature requirements, I'm sure you'll have your snake eating in no time. Just offer food every 5-7 days. I'm not sure what your snake was previously eating, or if has eaten at all being only 2 months old, but you can usually get them started on live mouse hoppers or rat pups. Good luck!

If you want a cheap space saving way to house one or both of them, look no further:
http://www.ball-pythons.net/modules....warticle&id=40
by the way, this method of housing is MUCH better than a 10 gallon with a heat lamp.

i was actually taking them to the local pet store at first to forcefeed her... but i noticed her condition worsening quickly and went to the vet... i guess he just assumed they were in seperate enclosures.


she has yet to eat on her own at all yet.

do yuo have any suggestions on heating and humidity and how to keep them regulated in an old drafty house?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by elevatethis

If you want a cheap space saving way to house one or both of them, look no further:
http://www.ball-pythons.net/modules....warticle&id=40
by the way, this method of housing is MUCH better than a 10 gallon with a heat lamp.

---

you knew exactly what i was thinking haha

A glass enclosure in a cold and drafty house can be a disaster. Ever feel a cold draft off of a window during the wintertime? Imagine your snake feeling that on all sides of their enclosure at all times.

Plastic housing is advantageous in that it serves as a much better insulator...keeping inside heat and humidity in and keeping outside cold dry air out. If the room is extremely cold at times during the year, simply placing a space heater near the enclosure will go far in alleviating your temperature woes. Sterilite tubs are cheap as crap too...you could easily get your hands on two for under $10 at walmart.

just out of curiousity... if the snakes have been in the same enclosure since they were hatched would the dominance problem still arise?

If they hatch together and are housed together, dominance issues will still occurr. They are not social creatures. In the wild, they hatch together, and quickly disperse to lead their own solitary lives.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lauren

just out of curiousity... if the snakes have been in the same enclosure since they were hatched would the dominance problem still arise?

---

The problem is, if one snake is dominant over the other ... the subordinate snake has no where to go. The stress makes them refuse food and weakens their immune system to the point that they become susceptible to disease.

There is absolutely no benefit to the snakes to keeping them together, and dozens of potential benefits to keeping them apart.

-adam

ok so my best bet is to get some new digs for them... haha... i assume the adjustment period still applies for that... even after i move them into new enclosures should i still try to feed every 5-10 days? i'm just worried that all these injections, housing changes, and whatever other little things that stress her out will be too much for her to handle... but its reassuring to hear that it can take up to 4 months for them to eat on their own


ooo... another question... how long do i wait before i forcefeed again? is there a body weight percentage loss i should look for?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lauren

ok so my best bet is to get some new digs for them... haha... i assume the adjustment period still applies for that... even after i move them into new enclosures should i still try to feed every 5-10 days? i'm just worried that all these injections, housing changes, and whatever other little things that stress her out will be too much for her to handle... but its reassuring to hear that it can take up to 4 months for them to eat on their own


ooo... another question... how long do i wait before i forcefeed again? is there a body weight percentage loss i should look for?

---

What does your vet have to say about it? I would think that he/she would be more qualified than a bunch of people on a message board that have never had a chance to assess the animals health in person?

-adam

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

There is absolutely no benefit to the snakes to keeping them together, and dozens of potential benefits to keeping them apart.

---

Not true! There are plenty of benefits from keeping them together. Let's see:

Sterilite box: $3.00
Flexwatt: $3.00
Thermometer: $12.00
Rheostat: $5.00
Hide: $0.10
Water bowl: $1.00 (Okay, so I'm splurging)
Food from snake not eating: $2/ week

You can save close to $25 by keeping them together! Plus, think how much more you can save if you keep several of them in the same cage. Cha-ching! :2cent:

Get them set up properly, with the right temps and humidity, and with time, all of the problems you are having will fade away. More stress will result from keeping things how they are, changing things can only make things better. The smaller one may need further treatment and extra TLC, but should do fine in the new setup.


Set them up right and leave them alone for a week before attemping to do anything, even a waterbowl change, and I'd bet both of them eat for you right away.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xdeus

Not true! There are plenty of benefits from keeping them together. Let's see:

Sterilite box: $3.00
Flexwatt: $3.00
Thermometer: $12.00
Rheostat: $5.00
Hide: $0.10
Water bowl: $1.00 (Okay, so I'm splurging)
Food from snake not eating: $2/ week

You can save close to $25 by keeping them together! Plus, think how much more you can save if you keep several of them in the same cage. Cha-ching! :2cent:

---

Everyone's a smartass! ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by elevatethis

Everyone's a smartass! ;)

---

Well, the "smart" part is questionable ... did you happen to catch his CAD drawings? :groinkick

There it is!!! .... boo - ya! :zerb: :pinkele: :carrot:

-adam

Leave it to all of us to send every nice, thoughtful, helpful thread straight down the toilet.


I wouldn't have it any other way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Well, the "smart" part is questionable ... did you happen to catch his CAD drawings? :groinkick

There it is!!! .... boo - ya! :zerb: :pinkele: :carrot:

---

LOL. Oh man... that hurt. :worship: :fishslap:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by elevatethis

Leave it to all of us to send every nice, thoughtful, helpful thread straight down the toilet.


I wouldn't have it any other way.

---

At least no one has linked to another forum .... yet. :twisted:

(yeah, low blow ... but IT IS friday ya know ... woo hoo!!!) :carouse:

-adam

my vet just analyzed her health problems... i didnt talk to him about housing because i wasnt aware of it being a problem...
plus its good to get input from people that have had lots of experience keeping snakes as pets on these matters .... to some vets they are just patients and cash in their pockets but to us they are companions....

Caramel still has two shots of antibiotic to go through before she finishes her RI treatment... meanwhile i will get started on getting them set-up in a better situation

thanks so much for your advice :) i will keep you updated on both of them

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lauren

thanks so much for your advice :) i will keep you updated on both of them

---

That's great! Sorry for hijacking your thread. :oops: The people here are pretty good at doling out great advice, so don't feel shy about asking questions. :colbert2:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lauren

my vet just analyzed her health problems.

---

Exactly, which is why when you posted ...

"ooo... another question... how long do i wait before i forcefeed again? is there a body weight percentage loss i should look for?"

I suggested that your vet would be a far better source for help with that question than strangers on the net that have never seen the animal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lauren

.. i didnt talk to him about housing because i wasnt aware of it being a problem...

---

Understandable ... many vets "assume" that their clients have the basics covered ... mistake on his/her part for not asking ... but not uncommon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lauren

plus its good to get input from people that have had lots of experience keeping snakes as pets on these matters

---

Well, this is the internet and you don't really know any of these people ... how do you really know how much or how little experience anyone responding to your posts has? .... There are tons of "overnight experts" on the internet that have had a snake for 4 weeks and have read a bunch of message board posts and instantly start giving advice about anything and everything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lauren

.... to some vets they are just patients and cash in their pockets but to us they are companions....

---

I have to disagree ... Vets go through years and years of schooling and pay big bucks for it and in the end make very little money compared to what they could make with the same investment in schooling in another field. The VAST majority do what they do because they love helping animals and people. If you have a vet that you believe cares more about "cash in their pockets" than that is truly unfortunate and I suggest you find a new one.

-adam

ok adam...
im just saying that a vet cant have had ALL the kinds of animals as pets that he sees in the office... so they dont necessarily have first hand experience on keeping snakes as pets... there are just some things about having an animal as a pet that yuo cant experience while studying them....

i like to know people's thoughts on the matter... and thats why im here... i dont necessarily have to take all of the advice given ...

no need to get testy about things... you shouldnt ridicule people for asking questions on here... thats what forums are for

thank you to the rest of you for sharing ... it's very much appreciated :D

I think both of you have good arguments. Vets are experts on the animals, not necessarily animal care. My exotic animal vet seems very skilled at diagnosing problems, but she also mentioned that I should never feed live. I think people that keep many of these animals and especially those that have kept them for a long time are a much better resource regarding husbandry issues than a vet.

On the other hand, Adam makes a good point that you should take everyone's advice with a grain of salt. I've been on other forums where many people will dole out really poor advice, and new snake keepers will eat it up as if it was gospel. Sometimes it's tough to weed out the BS from the good advice, but if you do your research it can be done and eventually you realize who you can trust.

Okay, now group hug. :grouphug:

ooooohhhhhh... Adam got a tongue lashin'.........:P...sorry Adam! had to say that!!;)

I don't think Adam had any intention of his response being taken as redicule. He was basically asking rhaetorical questions not meant to be direct attacks or anything like that. Asking this:

Quote:

---

how do you really know how much or how little experience anyone responding to your posts has?

---

is really just another way of saying "be careful with what advice you take because you don't really know the reliability of the source of the information you are being given."

Hope that cools things off....

ok lauren...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lauren

im just saying that a vet cant have had ALL the kinds of animals as pets that he sees in the office... so they dont necessarily have first hand experience on keeping snakes as pets... there are just some things about having an animal as a pet that yuo cant experience while studying them....

---

No, that's not even remotely close to what you typed. You SAID ...

"to some vets they are just patients and cash in their pockets"

Which is what provoked my polite and poinent response.

Had you actually said ...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lauren

that a vet cant have had ALL the kinds of animals as pets that he sees in the office... so they dont necessarily have first hand experience on keeping snakes as pets... there are just some things about having an animal as a pet that yuo cant experience while studying them....

---

I would have agreed and not wasted my time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lauren

i like to know people's thoughts on the matter... and thats why im here... i dont necessarily have to take all of the advice given ...

---

I understand that ... and I gave my thoughts on this matter ... I think I qualify as someone with a little bit of experience working with ball pythons ... When I offered my thoughts instead of not as you said "necessarily have to take all of the advice given" you instead decided to come back a statement that "some" vets care more about "cash in their pockets" ... I whole heartily disagree and exercised my right as a forum member to voice that disagreement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lauren

no need to get testy about things.

---

Not testy at all ... just calling it like I see it ... some people can't handle that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lauren

.. you shouldnt ridicule people for asking questions on here.

---

Please show me where I ridiculed you for asking questions. The way I see it, you asked questions, I asked a question to help inform myself and determine the best way to answer your questions, you then came back with a statement that I felt was untrue and completely disagreed with so I responded, and now you decide to back pedal by saying that even though you typed it, you didn't really mean that "to some vets they are just patients and cash in their pockets" but instead what you meant was that a vet cant have had ALL the kinds of animals as pets that he sees in the office... so they dont necessarily have first hand experience on keeping snakes as pets... there are just some things about having an animal as a pet that yuo cant experience while studying them....

Give me a break.

-adam

... haha wow...

... we're obviously both on the defensive on this one ... i see where you're coming from but i felt like i needed to explain myself more (as did you)... i'm here to help my snake... not argue with you ... so you win

sorry i asked for help

Don't be sorry to ask for help!! I think this thread has gotten a bit off. I know Adam didn't mean it as an attack on you, he's just known for being direct. This community truely goes out of it's way to help, and Adam is one of the best at this. He'll talk with you for hours to help get you straightened out. I know he's helped me out numerous times, and he's a great guy. (He's also just a bit of a PITA and waaayyy too blunt for his own good - or maybe ours :neener: )

Please feel free to ask any questions that arise, and we'll do our best to answer them.

:grouphug:

unfortumately the bottom line is they are going to die together maybe not son probablly slowly and painfully they need to be seprated not only will the sicness spread and respread the larger one will always get the better hide or better spot in the heat and thus stress the otler smaller on to the point of not eating also a 10 gallon may be too small for one of them much less both im sorry if this sounds harsh but im jus telling u whats up please seperate them for both their sakes

I read that you've treated the one snake for RI and worms, but have you talked to the vet about receiving medication to treat the other snake for worms? If not, take a fecal sample from both snakes to the vet and get them tested again for parasites.

I'm glad you came here for help, its a shame however that most owners do not find websites like this before they go out and purchase their animals and situations like this arise.

-Jason

Lauren, welcome to BPNet and please keep on asking questions. Remember online that we can't read each others nuances so it's always easier with purely a written conversation to misunderstand someone's intent or motivation. Adam was trying to caution you as many newcomers take anything they read online as gospel and when it comes to the health and well-being of your two ball pythons no one online can ever replace a good vet. What we can do is support you, help inform you, direct you to sources of more information and heck we are the ONLY people in the world who will cheer along with you when your snake poops or sheds!:D

I fully agree with getting these snakes seperated immediately. Also always tend the ill one only after you've done all daily things with the well one. Do have the one that is not sick looked at though as having been together it may well have picked up something from the other baby.

Don't fret that you didn't know all this stuff. In a perfect world everyone would know everything but that's not realistic. What's great is that you are taking the suggestions given to heart and seem to be willing to do the best for your lovely Caramel and Butterscotch. It's always best to do the research first but there's nothing in your situation that can't be remedied pretty quickly and I know your little BP's will benefit greatly. So will you as the stress of sick snakes is not fun on your nerves or your wallet.

Here's a little trick I used when I was very new (and I'm still so new to this BP world in the greater scheme of it). Whenever I got advice online or read something that seemed to make sense I wrote it in a little notebook. Then I looked for 2 other independent sources or people that confirmed the same information. Then and only then did I circle it in red and consider it something valuable to know. Not a perfect system but it helped to wade through the volume of information and highlight the good stuff.

THANKS!!! :) i have them all separated now ... caramel seems to be happier already... hopefullly i will be able to report back with good news of her eating within the next couple weeks