Recessive Genetics - Het Percentages

Noticed a few het questions lately so I thought it might be a good idea to review a bit on recessive genetics and the het percentages that come from those breedings. It's also good for Mike and I to review so we know we have this basics of genetics down pat going into our first breeding season. So let me know if this is correct please.

I'll use our 100% het for albino male BP, Malachi, as my example here.

If we bred Malachi to a normal female we would get 50% possible het for albino offspring (no chance for albino offspring). The possible hets would have to be raised and bred to prove them out as 100% hets or normals.

If we bred Malachi to a 100% het for albino female we would get 66% possible het for albino offspring (with a 1 in 4 chance for a homozygous aka visible albino offspring). Again only raising them up and breeding them would prove which did or did not get the genetics for albino.

If we bred Malachi to an albino female we would get a 2 in 4 chance for albino's and all normal appearing offspring would be 100% het for albino. No need to wait, you know they are hets.

We do not have one but just to round out the recessive thing. A homozygous albino bred to a normal produces all 100% het for albino offspring (the breeding that in fact produced Malachi). Same as above, they are 100% hets without question.

Of course all estimates on the number of homozygous offspring in any given clutch are just that...estimates. It's always a roll of the genetic dice. We fully realize that nothing is guaranteed that way unless both male and female homozygous.

My last question is when it comes to how one properly refers to 50% and 66% hets. I've seen them called just that as well as "66% possible hets". Does it matter which term is used or is one preferred over the other?

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

My last question is when it comes to how one properly refers to 50% and 66% hets. I've seen them called just that as well as "66% possible hets". Does it matter which term is used or is one preferred over the other?

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Well to be 100% accurate ;) a 50% and 60% arent het, so possible would be an ideal term, but then again, a snake cant be 50% het, it is either a het or not het, 0% or 100%, so sometimes it is omitted.


Thats the part that is hard for new people to wrap their heads around. This snake that is 50% het, isnt 50% het, it is either 0% or 100%(is or isn't). But the odds of it possibly being a (100%) het are 50%


I would say 50% possible het.

it has a chance of being a het, 50%

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

My last question is when it comes to how one properly refers to 50% and 66% hets. I've seen them called just that as well as "66% possible hets". Does it matter which term is used or is one preferred over the other?

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Yes, it matters a lot.

50% and 66% are numbers that denote the statistical probability that the normal appearing snake is a het. In a het x het breeding the normal appearing offspring each have a 16% greater chance of being het than the normal appearing offspring from a het x normal breeding. When you're calculating odds of producing homozygous offspring from breeding possible hets, the odds matter a lot ... at least to me they do. ;)

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Yes, it matters a lot.

50% and 66% are numbers that denote the statistical probability that the normal appearing snake is a het. In a het x het breeding the normal appearing offspring each have a 16% greater chance of being het than the normal appearing offspring from a het x normal breeding. When you're calculating odds of producing homozygous offspring from breeding possible hets, the odds matter a lot ... at least to me they do. ;)

-adam

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Um... Adam? I think Jo was referring to the term "possible" as opposed to those that don't use the term. Then again, what do I know? :groinkick

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Um... Adam? I think Jo was referring to the term "possible" as opposed to those that don't use the term. Then again, what do I know? :groinkick

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Oh ... wow ... didn't get that at all ... well in that case I say ...

Doesn't matter.

;)

LMAO! :carrot:

-adam

LOL that is what I was asking Adam. Just the wording really. Just for when we breed this year and we'll be keeping all the females back of course but seeking homes for the males. I want to make sure if I call them 50% possible hets for albino or 50% hets for albino I'm using the right words (okay so I'm anal about this stuff but we want to start off right). The males really will just be for pets but Mike and I still want to represent them correctly to their new owners.

I think the wording does matter "50% possible het" /"66% possible het" are terms that make sense.....a 50% het is a nonsensical term since you are ethier het or not.....by putting one word in there "possible" .....you convey the probability that the organism is heterozygous.

When I first started reading about ball pythons my gf used the term 50% het and it confused me...I was like "heterozgous" is a state, you cant be half-way het.....as soon as I realized that this was short for 50% possible het it made sense to me.

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

I think the wording does matter "50% possible het" /"66% possible het" are terms that make sense.....a 50% het is a nonsensical term since you are ethier het or not.....by putting one word in there "possible" .....you convey the probability that the organism is heterozygous.

When I first started reading about ball pythons my gf used the term 50% het and it confused me...I was like "heterozgous" is a state, you cant be half-way het.....as soon as I realized that this was short for 50% possible het it made sense to me.

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So I guess short hand is lost on you? :P

There are "technical terms" and "trade terms" or "common language" .... people that have been around understand the "lingo" of the trade ... people new to the hobby certainly do get confused.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

So I guess short hand is lost on you? :P

There are "technical terms" and "trade terms" or "common language" .... people that have been around understand the "lingo" of the trade ... people new to the hobby certainly do get confused.

-adam

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Short hand is good and biology is full of TLAs (Three Letter Acronyms)...like DNA and RNA that stand for something.....

Personally, I dont think much more effort is needed to utter the word "possible" in there......I just think it's a bit lazy....once you know what it means that's fine....it certainly is confusing if someone doesnt tell you what they mean though.....

I also think it's more truthful to say "50% possible het".....someone who doesnt know genetics might not realize heterozygous is a state.

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

I just think it's a bit lazy.

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And some people might think that statement is judgmental and arrogant. ;)

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

...once you know what it means that's fine....it certainly is confusing if someone doesnt tell you what they mean though.....

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Not every seller feels the need to be an educator. Some people are just breeding and having fun and selling their animals to people that "know what it means".

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

I also think it's more truthful to say "50% possible het".....someone who doesnt know genetics might not realize heterozygous is a state.

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More truthful? Come on now. Technically, it would be more truthful to say "heterozygous" instead of het, but this hobby and industry has common practices that people are just used to.

When you buy a car, a car salesman might say to you "It's got a 305" ... 305 what? ... Is he not being truthful? Did he mean a 305 stitch floor mat? Of course he didn't. He was using language that is common to the industry ... just like saying 50% het albino vs. 50% possible het albino is common to the industry.

I could see your point if the shortcut was being used in a book, technical paper, or some type of material used to educate, but the original jist of the thread was how to use the terminology when selling ... and I as someone that has been breeding and selling ball pythons for 10+ years, I stand by my original statement.... it doesn't matter.

-adam

To me the distictiion matters......maybe not less truthful, but certainly less ambiguous.

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

To me the distictiion matters......maybe not less truthful, but certainly less ambiguous.

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Matters how?

Ok, so now you agree that it's not less truthful ... cool, I like when people see things my way. :D

Now lets tackle ambiguity.

Isn't "ambiguous" a very subjective term? Something that is ambiguous to you, might be perfectly clear to someone with a more education, greater wisdom, higher intelligence, etc. Or something that is crystal clear to you, might seem a little ambiguous at first to one of your young high school students.

Since what is and is not ambiguous can be so subjective over a population of many people with different levels of experience, education, intelligence, wisdom, etc ... who gets to set the standard for what is and isn't ambiguous in the ball python community?

The ball python world is great big place with lots of different people ... it's certainly bigger than you, definitely bigger than me, bigger than this site and everyone on it ... like I said before ... 50% het or 50% possible het ... in the end, it doesn't matter ... sooner or later, the snakes will sell … Jo and Mike will have a few bucks in their pocket and they’ll have had an awesome start on the venture into the world of ball python breeding! ;)

-adam

Well, if I am looking for a snake to breed, I want hetero snakes, not homo snakes, right?

As for the issue of people being confused that het is a state, on or off, true or false, 0 or 1 ..... If someone doesnt know that much then they probably shouldnt be looking into buying a het anything, and should educate themselves/research the topic.

I believe that any educational, beginner, or explanitory document should spell it out, 50% possible het....

At the point that someone is selling a snake, 50% het should be explanation enough. People that are looking to buy snakes should have done enough research to understand what a het is, and realize that there is only one interpretation for this.

Would it be easier if everyone threw in possible as well? Yup, at least for new/somewhat new people. However, when typing it out 50% het and 50% poss. het, you are looking at an additional 90% keystrokes! :)

Okay, being that I smacked Adam down earlier on in this thread :P , I'm going to have to say I agree with him on this point. I was a little confused with the "50% het" expression when I first got into this hobby, but I doubt if it would have made more sense if it was stated as "possible". I think after you learn the basics, it's pretty clear and it doesn't matter how they state it in the ad.

If you want to get picky about the specifics, you could easily get your panties in a bunch over the terms Lucy's, Pieds, and Ghosts. There are much more accurate ways of describing these animals, but the people that are in the market to buy these animals should already know what they are and what they mean. :soapbx:

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Okay, being that I smacked Adam down earlier on in this thread :P

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That's a Dagger! :P

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

That's a Dagger! :P

-adam

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:rofl: That's how I slide... no, that's not it... skip? Nope... bounce?

Ah... ROLL!!

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Originally Posted by xdeus

:rofl: That's how I slide... no, that's not it... skip? Nope... bounce?

Ah... ROLL!!

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Must be a west coast thing? ... Are you OD'in on the granola again? :P :carrot:

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Must be a west coast thing? ... Are you OD'in on the granola again? :P :carrot:

-adam

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Probably, but it could also be my hemp boxers are riding up on me again. :b0x0rz:

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Probably, but it could also be my hemp boxers are riding up on me again. :b0x0rz:

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I heard that if you smoke hemp boxers it can sometimes be a #@%$ty high??? True? :P :gj: :tongue2:

-adam

:sabduel:


:rolleye2: :rolleye2: :rolleye2: :rolleye2:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I heard that if you smoke hemp boxers it can sometimes be a #@%$ty high??? True? :P :gj: :tongue2:

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:8: Worse than Mexican swag. :crazy:

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Originally Posted by xdeus

:8: Worse than Mexican swag. :crazy:

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aye carumba. :puke:

-adam

I try to remember to always include "possible" and/or "chance" because even if you believe that only the newbies would get confused there are always a lot of newbies around. Also, the newbies are the ones most likely to buy a possible het. It is a pretty fundamental difference between being half a het and having a 50% chance of being a het that could be cleared up by a little extra effort.

I always thought in the real world that sellers were not the ones with the burden of educating buyers. When they choose to do so, thats called customer service. Adam was saying that these are terms that are just commonly used in the business and most people in the market for a het know what a 100% is versus a 50%...and if they don't know....I guarantee you that Mr Wysocki would spend as much time as it takes on the phone with that buyer explaining it in 360.

I'm not going to type '50% possible heterozygous' every time I make a reference to that. If someone's confused, they'll ask us or go ask jeeves.....

I agree if you don't know what 50%het means then you probably shouldn't be buying them yet.Get on the forum's like I did and read up.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

The ball python world is great big place with lots of different people ... it's certainly bigger than you, definitely bigger than me, bigger than this site and everyone on it ... like I said before ... 50% het or 50% possible het ... in the end, it doesn't matter ... sooner or later, the snakes will sell … Jo and Mike will have a few bucks in their pocket and they’ll have had an awesome start on the venture into the world of ball python breeding! ;)

-adam

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Good words there Adam! Thanks! Mike and I are eagerly anticipating our first breeding season. Can't even express how exciting it is to think of producing our own baby Royals. I could seriously care less what they are....they'll be perfect in my eyes and I'll be disgustingly proud of em all LOL. The females of course go nowhere but the males....well if they make us enough for a nice dinner out or a zoo trip for the family....hey...bonus for us! :D

Of course the day we hatch out our first bright and beautiful yellow and white BP will be the best! :fest2:

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

I try to remember to always include "possible" and/or "chance" because even if you believe that only the newbies would get confused there are always a lot of newbies around. Also, the newbies are the ones most likely to buy a possible het. It is a pretty fundamental difference between being half a het and having a 50% chance of being a het that could be cleared up by a little extra effort.

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Sounds like Mendel is right up your alley. ;)

You guys should get a forum! :D:D:D:D

-adam

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

I try to remember to always include "possible" and/or "chance" because even if you believe that only the newbies would get confused there are always a lot of newbies around. Also, the newbies are the ones most likely to buy a possible het. It is a pretty fundamental difference between being half a het and having a 50% chance of being a het that could be cleared up by a little extra effort.

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Why would a newbie be the most likely to buy a possible het? They are a good way to get in cheap for anyone, newbie or not.

Also, like I said earlier, if you are a newbie, and want to buy a snake, research, research, research, and ask questions.

I'm sort of in the middle ground on some of this. While I strongly believe any buyer, especially a newcomer to this hobby, should do as much research and pre-planning as possible I've also had the good luck of being exposed early on to some very superior BP breeders. Folks like Adam have shown me that as much as it's my responsibility to know the basics and be a smart purchaser, they are always there to answer my newbie questions, calm my concerns and reach out with support long after the purchase is finalized (or heck even help with other snakes in our collection that they didn't have a financial stake in at all).

My hope as a breeder of BP's is to follow that good example. To sell lovely, healthy, well started BP's. To represent them truthfully and back up what we say 100% always. To sell to people that truly love these snakes, have a real passion for them and even as newcomers, have done a bit of their homework. Finally to offer them all the support that Mike and I received during our first very nervous forays into this new and strange world of P. regius. That to my mind is an all around win win situation and that's what we will be striving for.:)

I just don't understand the hostility towards efforts to educate outside of a personal business relationship. Is information to be reserved as a marketing tool only?

Sure sellers can choose whether or not to burden themselves with educating buyers and apparently the good ones make the effort at some point but what's wrong with starting the effort in the initial ad? Maybe from the marketing perspective it is better to reserve information but obviously I care less than nothing for marketing.

I'm curious to know who the purchasers of possible het albinos are in the real world. Maybe I was too hasty to assume a bias toward newbies. I still think that would be the case with males (most of which probably aren't even marketed as possible hets anymore). But what about possible het albino females? I suppose there aren't even many big breeders producing them any more but are they buying them? I'd worry about if the people SELLING possible het albinos understand the concept as I know I've seen possible hets I've sold relisted with the label truncated further to just "het". Maybe they where outright crooks or maybe I didn't do a good enough job of educating them on the concept of possible hets. Or maybe it was just a clever marketing strategy in the ad and they would have explained it fully in person to a serious potential buyer.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

I know I've seen possible hets I've sold relisted with the label truncated further to just "het".

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Sounds like all that educating didn't work?

-adam

Personally Randy I don't see any "hostility" in all this. What I've learned from this thread and others on similar topics is that especially when dealing with the breeding/selling of hets or possible hets both the breeder/seller and the buyer need to be honest, educated and responsible. That's pretty much a simple way of seeing it but I tend to go with the K.I.S.S. theory (grandpa always said most folks overthink everything till they understand nothing LOL).

As far as our future sales of hets I figure I'm not only marketing a snake, in the end I'm marketing me so I need to be the same high quality as the snakes I offer to people. If part of that is educating a potential buyer about hets, fine and dandy but on the other hand I'm not into spoonfeeding people. I do feel that a buyer of a het or possible het does need to self-educate and lord knows the information is out there easily accessible to anyone with a computer. Especially with non-visible genetics, if a purchaser doesn't do the work, someone is going to come along and take advantage of them. But that's just life and happens all the time (go visit your local used car salesman and see that theory at work LOL)

As far as someone buying a possible het from you and reselling it simply as "het for" whatever...that's not about being uneducated....that's about being downright dishonest. No candy coating there. Unless that person took that possible het and spent the time to prove it out through breeding, then they are flat out lying. Again though as a purchaser, one has to remember they are buying reputations not only snakes, so know where your hets come from, who bred them, documentation and ask hard questions about why someone is reselling a het.

Smart buyers are wonderful and I bet the good breeders out there love em!

Great thread! Its contains information, humor, sarcasm. I laughed, I cried, I nearly crapped myself (not an uncommon occurence). In the end, I have nothing to add except my usual post whoring.

Rock on!! :)

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

Also, the newbies are the ones most likely to buy a possible het.

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I would like to respectfully disagree with you there.

Most of the "newbies", as you're labeling them, are getting in the business to get rich quick. Some of the "newbies" are actually planning on being around for a while. I think the statement that "newbies" are most likely to buy a poss het is not entirely accurate.

New people entering the hobby, I think, are most likely to buy a normal, or a 100% het. I'll qualify my statement by asking you to look on the pictures forum for the last few "new additions" pictures. I honestly don't remember the last person to post a thread saying they purchased a poss het.

My theory for this is because most people dealing with poss hets are buying them in numbers. People who have more time than money buy poss hets in numbers and more snakes means more commitment and time to clean/feed/etc..

I think for the casual hobbyist or newcomer, buying a 100% het makes more sense. Less effort, guaranteed results, and less space.

Now.... to contribute to the actual OP's question, and this thread, I would like to just point out that if we're getting all technical about all of this, then a 100% het, should just be labeled a het. A true heterozygous animal doesn't have a "100% chance" of being a het, while a 50% or 66% does. So, in using that theory, I would say that it would be perfectly acceptable to use the term "66% het albino" or "50% het albino" OR "50% possible het albino". It's all about the genetics... not the wording. :)

Maybe there are very few possible het albinos of either gender being produced and sold as such any more so no one is buying them! You've got a point about newbies going with normals or hets. I think the whole possible het thing confuses them to the point that they would rather by a normal for the same price. But I still think there is plenty of genetic confusion to go around and it extends beyond the newbies.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

But I still think there is plenty of genetic confusion to go around and it extends beyond the newbies.

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I wholeheartedly agree with you, Randy. There's too many people making the easiest of questions turn into the most complicated of biology lessons.

Sometimes the "KISS" (keep it simple stupid) method is the best one.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

Maybe there are very few possible het albinos of either gender being produced and sold as such any more so no one is buying them!

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As someone that is actively selling ball pythons every day, I can tell you for sure that there are a lot of people out there buying possible hets.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

I think the whole possible het thing confuses them to the point that they would rather by a normal for the same price.

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The vast majority of "newbies" that I deal with are extremely self educated and know the difference between homozygous, heterozygous, possible het, etc ... no confusion at all. You are really not giving people enough credit.

-adam

Just wanted to pop in and thank everyone for keeping this thread on topic and polite. Some of these issues can be a bit complex and "hot button" but it's always nice to see spirited discussions that stay sane. :) This Mod appreciates you all making my day that much easier so a big thank you to all contributors to this thread!

i bought a clutch of poss. albino bp's 2 yrs ago. i will be proving 3 girls out this winter. i can't wait to see if i hit the lottery! lol i also have a poss. pied girl going this winter, and a poss. hypo girl i'm raising up. POSS/50% whatever ROCKS!




vaughn

So Adam, who is buying most of those possible hets, newbies or big breeders or somewhere in-between?

ddbjdealer, if I didn't give them credit maybe I would stick to KISS like Adam but I think with the right explanation most everyone should be able to understand advanced subjects like alleles even though plenty get the basics like co-dom hets and recessive possible hets wrong at first. I'll keep practicing with longer, more detailed, and more frequent explanations to get it right since you and Adam appreciate them so much ;). I’m sure those who don’t care to know can continue to pass over them and if there are a few who want to take the time they can maybe learn something new.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

So Adam, who is buying most of those possible hets, newbies or big breeders or somewhere in-between?

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All of the above.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

most everyone should be able to understand advanced subjects like alleles

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And for what it's worth, even though I'm sure people understand what they are, I talk ball python morphs and genetics on the phone for what seems like all day every day to friends and customers and the only time I ever see the word "alleles" brought up is in your posts Randy. :P

-adam

I'm not sure if it's a question of whether people should or shouldn't be able to understand the actual genetics behind it. The important thing is that they understand what "50% het albino" means and what they're getting -- ie, that there's a 50% chance that the snake they're buying will, if mated with an albino (for example), produce offspring with a 50% chance of being albino.

In principle, it would be best for interested persons to understand how the genetics actually works, particularly if they're planning on breeding. However, I don't think that the addition of "possible" will make any significant difference. If you're buying a snake and you're serious about it, you should do some background reading. If you didn't encounter "50% het" in your research, it's easy to ask the seller for clarification.

Having said that, I do agree that "50% possible heterozygous" is more clear than "50% het"; it's also cumbersome, however. In any given field's terminology, clarity is often sacrificed in exchange for convenience and it's expected that those who are new to the field (either as hobbyists or professionals) put in some effort to learn the terminology; of course, it's also incumbent on those already in the field to be helpful in explaining confusing terms to newcomers. (In my brief experience here, I've found the people on this forum do the latter quite well, which is appreciated.)

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Originally Posted by kavmon

i bought a clutch of poss. albino bp's 2 yrs ago. i will be proving 3 girls out this winter. i can't wait to see if i hit the lottery! lol i also have a poss. pied girl going this winter, and a poss. hypo girl i'm raising up. POSS/50% whatever ROCKS!

vaughn

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This is going to be an amazing year for you Vaughn. Crossing all my crossable bits that you hit the numbers and prove em all out! How exciting! Mike and I have been talking and we really need to pick up some females to prove out (as well as the ones that hopefully Malachi will father this year). Sounds like a lot of fun and hey still better odds than your average lottery! ;)

thanks jo, this year has been a blast so far. hatching pastels has been an awesome expierence. next year albinos,pastels, maybe pieds and who knows what else?

you definately have to put the time in and raise some girls up to breed. i'm raising a few female morphs now for combos in the future.


vaughn