Venomous or Poisonous?

Every newspaper article talking about snake bites seems to refer to people being bitten by "poisonous" snakes...that doesn't sound right to my herper's ear. I've always thought of certain reptiles as venomous, not poisonous. The dictionary definitions of the terms list venom as a poisonouse substance and poison as a substance that causes injury or death to a living organism.

So which is it?

I always thought that poison had to be ingested...while venom was injected into the tissues......but I'm sure you're right about reptiles being venomous and not poisonous.

so its about delivery? Some frogs and toads give off a poisonous secretion to deter animals from eating them, or else they injest the poison. If that same frog or toad had a way to INJECT that same substance would they then be called venomous?

Wish I woulda been a bio major....

Yes reptiles are venomous. I thought it was about the way ih which it was dangerous too.. venom is not dangerous if you touch it, only if it is injected.. poison must be eaten.. but good point about dart frogs. Hm.

True, it's all about the delivery. One is passive the other is active. However, poisonous does seem to be used a lot with snakes even by so-called professionals. I was watching a show recently on Animal Planet in which a herpetologist/biologist and his son were searching an island for a new species of viper. They constantly referred to the venomous snakes as "poisonous" which struck me as odd. So I have no idea whether it's even a concern in the scientific community or it's just something that anal hobbyists get hung up on? :rolleye2:

I always thought that venom was poisonous. Like cianide is toxic (I think that's the right word).

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Originally Posted by xdeus

So I have no idea whether it's even a concern in the scientific community or it's just something that anal hobbyists get hung up on? :rolleye2:

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You callin' me an anal hobbyist??? :matrixfig

It always irks me when I hear 'poisonous snake' on TV or whatnot. I guess I am anal, but you know what.. get the terminology right, it's not hard!

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

You callin' me an anal hobbyist??? :matrixfig

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Hey, if the shoe fits... :sabduel:


Although I think I've yet to see a non-anal BP owner. :crazy:

Fortunately, I am a biologist. ;-) Venom is injected, while poison is absorbed through the skin; my impression is that while biologists make the distinction it tends to be emphasised more by medical personnel. Another difference is that venoms are necessarily biological in origin, whereas poisions may not be.

Nice...exactly the clarification I was looking for!

Unfortunately, the news article I read that brought this up had the doctor referring to the snake as "poisonous".

Very interesting.. that makes sense. Since eating it would cause it to be 'absorbed through the skin' same as just touching it.

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Originally Posted by engywook

Fortunately, I am a biologist. ;-) Venom is injected, while poison is absorbed through the skin; my impression is that while biologists make the distinction it tends to be emphasised more by medical personnel. Another difference is that venoms are necessarily biological in origin, whereas poisions may not be.

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So would it be accurate to say that the term "venomous" is a subset of "poisonous?" IE: All venomous animals can be considered poisonous...but not all poisonous things can be considered venomous? All apples are fruit...but not all fruit are apples.

If this is the case, then it can be just as correct, although less precise, to call snakes "poisonous."

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Originally Posted by JLC

All apples are fruit...but not all fruit are apples.

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Wow, Judy! That's so.... so.... profound!! lol :):P :sweeet:

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Originally Posted by JLC

So would it be accurate to say that the term "venomous" is a subset of "poisonous?" IE: All venomous animals can be considered poisonous...but not all poisonous things can be considered venomous?

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That is the logic that I like to use on these types of words too Judy. I agree with what you are saying.

By definition...Venom is a poison that is excreted from animals in some form or the other. Poison is any substance that can cause injury, illness or death to a living organism....the suffix -ous simply means possessing, having, containing, etc...

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

By definition...Venom is a poison that is excreted from animals in some form or the other.

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I might be wrong, but I don't believe that is the definition. (okay, so I'm also lazy for not googling it) Frogs that excrete poison from glands on their skin are considered poisonous, not venomous.

[QUOTE JLC]So would it be accurate to say that the term "venomous" is a subset of "poisonous?" IE: All venomous animals can be considered poisonous.[/QUOTE]

I guess that would depend on who you ask and how technical they're being. I would agree with you (ie, venom = inject, biological toxin; poison = toxin); because I try to be a precise person, I prefer the use of 'venomous' to describe snakes, especially in a formal setting.

A quick Google comparison seems to show that the public disagrees: searching for 'snakes venomous' yields 1,690,000 hits, while 'snakes poisonous' gets 3,010,000. Oh well...

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Originally Posted by xdeus

I might be wrong, but I don't believe that is the definition. (okay, so I'm also lazy for not googling it) Frogs that excrete poison from glands on their skin are considered poisonous, not venomous.

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http://dict.die.net/venom/
http://www.answers.com/topic/venom
http://www.medterms.com/script/main/...ticlekey=40545
http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861733758/venom.html

I was going by the first definition......read the last one though....that sounds like the best one IMO

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Although I think I've yet to see a non-anal BP owner. :crazy:

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The non-anal ones abuse the animal and turn it in somewhere for adoption...=P

Poison is ingested OR absorbed. Venom is envenomated (injected). So if you swallow it OR absorb it through your skin, it's poison. Theoretically you can drink venom, as long as you have no oral mucosal lacerations with no adverse effects.

venom is injectd while poison is absorbed by mucous membranes.

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Originally Posted by JLC

So would it be accurate to say that the term "venomous" is a subset of "poisonous?" IE: All venomous animals can be considered poisonous...but not all poisonous things can be considered venomous? All apples are fruit...but not all fruit are apples.

If this is the case, then it can be just as correct, although less precise, to call snakes "poisonous."

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That is NOT accurate

the terms venomous and poisonous are a subset of the term TOXIC.

Venoms and poisons are TOXINS, with the word describing method of delivery (as already mentioned).

That is all.

I use this debate to make people feel stupid all the time.:P

This is how:

I ask said person if they think they are fairly smart. Pretty much everyone says yes. I then ask them to name a species of Poisonous snake. I wait for the answer, which is usually rattlesnake or cobra, then tell them they are wrong.

I get some really odd looks, then I elaborate. If something is poisonous, that carries the thought you need to eat it in order for it to harm you. Rattlesnakes are eaten quite commonly. Snakes are venomous, meaning they need to bite/sting you to do harm.

No one disagrees with me.

Gale

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Originally Posted by angllady2

I use this debate to make people feel stupid all the time.:P

This is how:

I ask said person if they think they are fairly smart. Pretty much everyone says yes. I then ask them to name a species of Poisonous snake. I wait for the answer, which is usually rattlesnake or cobra, then tell them they are wrong.

I get some really odd looks, then I elaborate. If something is poisonous, that carries the thought you need to eat it in order for it to harm you. Rattlesnakes are eaten quite commonly. Snakes are venomous, meaning they need to bite/sting you to do harm.

No one disagrees with me.

Gale

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But you are wrong.

There are in fact two poisonous snakes.

Rhabdophis Tigrinus are documented as venomous and poisonous. The cloacal excretions of ring neck snakes are also quite toxic.

Which makes them also both venomous (orally) and poisonous.

Careful who you ask that question to in the future...........

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Originally Posted by angllady2

I use this debate to make people feel stupid all the time.:P

This is how:

I ask said person if they think they are fairly smart. Pretty much everyone says yes. I then ask them to name a species of Poisonous snake. I wait for the answer, which is usually rattlesnake or cobra, then tell them they are wrong.

I get some really odd looks, then I elaborate. If something is poisonous, that carries the thought you need to eat it in order for it to harm you. Rattlesnakes are eaten quite commonly. Snakes are venomous, meaning they need to bite/sting you to do harm.

No one disagrees with me.

Gale

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Man, I bet you're a blast to bring to parties..

owned!!!

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

But you are wrong.

There are in fact two poisonous snakes.

Rhabdophis Tigrinus are documented as venomous and poisonous. The cloacal excretions of ring neck snakes are also quite toxic.

Which makes them also both venomous (orally) and poisonous.

Careful who you ask that question to in the future...........

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this may be true, but until someone actually says those specific snakes, he's right :P

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Originally Posted by h00blah

this may be true, but until someone actually says those specific snakes, he's right :P

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:confused:

I love when people see my snakes and ask if they are poisonous. So my gf and I named our two dumerils Poisonous and Venomous. So when we get asked we can say no this one is venomous...THAT one is poisonous. The reactions are the best.

I asked a friend of mine that is studying to be a Pathologist about this and here is what she said.

Venom is poison, Poison is defined as any foreign substance that when introduced into the body causes organs and tissue to behave in a way not typical or to die. Even beer is a poison, the "Buzz you feel is the "poison" blocking never receptors, hindering muscle control ect.

To be "Poisoned" one must have ingested or absorbed the Toxin topically or other wise.

To be envenomated the toxin must have need introduced through a puncture or other trauma to the body..

So like was said before Poison is a description of the toxin it's the delivery method that makes the difference.

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Originally Posted by Void

I love when people see my snakes and ask if they are poisonous. So my gf and I named our two dumerils Poisonous and Venomous. So when we get asked we can say no this one is venomous...THAT one is poisonous. The reactions are the best.

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LOVE IT! That's a good idea. I'm going to use those names... sorry, I gotta have to steal it. lol!

I had a German Shepherd back in the 80's named Byte (from the movie Tron). That was very unpopular with the neighbors... the neighbors would approach the gate, the dog would stand guard on the gate barking, then I would yell, Byte! to get her to go to her kennel. Visitors who don't know my dog would sometimes run for their lives.

My 8-year-old is quick to correct his friends when they call his hognose poisonous.

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Originally Posted by angllady2

I use this debate to make people feel stupid all the time.:P

This is how:

I ask said person if they think they are fairly smart. Pretty much everyone says yes. I then ask them to name a species of Poisonous snake. I wait for the answer, which is usually rattlesnake or cobra, then tell them they are wrong.

I get some really odd looks, then I elaborate. if something is poisonous, that carries the thought you need to eat it in order for it to harm you. Rattlesnakes are eaten quite commonly. Snakes are venomous, meaning they need to bite/sting you to do harm.

No one disagrees with me.

Gale

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I disagree.. Eat you a couple of completely full grown Eastern Diamond back Rattle Snake Venom Glands and call me in the morning. While the flesh of the snake agreed isn't harmful, they aren't injection flesh when they bite you..

Poison like I said is a wide term that includes Venom (aka adapted saliva)..

I understand your argument but to say that the thing that cause harm when injected is no longer harmful when ingested is not true..

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Originally Posted by anatess

LOVE IT! That's a good idea. I'm going to use those names... sorry, I gotta have to steal it. lol!

I had a German Shepherd back in the 80's named Byte (from the movie Tron). That was very unpopular with the neighbors... the neighbors would approach the gate, the dog would stand guard on the gate barking, then I would yell, Byte! to get her to go to her kennel. Visitors who don't know my dog would sometimes run for their lives.

My 8-year-old is quick to correct his friends when they call his hognose poisonous.

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Haha thanks and that's awesome with your dog.I bet you had a lot of fun with that lol

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

I disagree.. Eat you a couple of completely full grown Eastern Diamond back Rattle Snake Venom Glands and call me in the morning. While the flesh of the snake agreed isn't harmful, they aren't injection flesh when they bite you..

Poison like I said is a wide term that includes Venom (aka adapted saliva)..

I understand your argument but to say that the thing that cause harm when injected is no longer harmful when ingested is not true..

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Where did he/she say anything about eating venom glands?

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Originally Posted by Void

Where did he/she say anything about eating venom glands?

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Bold area..

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Bold area..

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Still not seeing anything about glands...just that rattlesnakes are eating a lot. Don't the heads get cut off before the snake is cooked or eaten?

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Originally Posted by Void

Still not seeing anything about glands...just that rattlesnakes are eating a lot. Don't the heads get cut off before the snake is cooked or eaten?

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Ok I'll try and explain better.. When snakes are eaten people intentional don't eat the part that can kill them.."if something is poisonous, that carries the thought you need to eat it in order for it to harm you. Rattlesnakes are eaten quite commonly"... Last time I checked if you were to ingest snake venom it runs the same risk of dieing from the venom.

Hence the "heads get cut off before the snake is cooked or eaten?"

So to say "Snakes are venomous, meaning they need to bite/sting you to do harm." is wrong the delivery method doesn't matter regardless of how the toxin gets into the body it is still harmful..Meaning it is still poisonous to the Human condition. All the toxin has to do is get in to the blood stream.. There are "Venomous" snakes that don't have to "Bite" you to do this. Spitting cobra's and stiletto snakes come to mind..

Ahhh ok now I see what you're saying

Venoms vs. Poisons

Generally, a poison is a toxic substance that is distributed throughout the tissues of an animal's body via inhaling, absorption or intake. For example if the poisoned animal in question is eaten by another creature the toxin will cause a reaction thus poisoning the system of the second creature.
Venom is made up of natural enzymes to form modified saliva introduced into a closed system by being forced in through breaking the skin. Anyone can drink pure venom without any side affects if no open wound in the mouth or throat exist

Venom is only a poison if it enters a closed system through the skin. If not it is harmless.

This is my take on all of this. Spitting cobras would be considered venomous and poisonous. IMO venom is a Biological toxin injected into the body and/or bloodstream by an animal. Poisons can be put into the body in any form. Its not venom just because its injected into the body. If that was the case heroin would be considered a venom when its injected. As for the eating dabate. It would be considered a Poisson if you were to eat a venom gland. There are several things to consider when classifying something. Like route into the body, chemical make up (synthetic or Biological) ect. Also I may be wrong but isnt it only the skin/mucus membrane on a dart frog is poisonous?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poison
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_venom

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/poison
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/venom

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...1/ai_19332512/
http://www.preservevenomous.com/Veno..._Vs_Poison.htm
http://insects.about.com/od/insects1...-poisonous.htm
http://www.chevroncars.com/learn/won...nomous-animals
http://www.animalcorner.co.uk/venanimals/ven_about.html
http://www.reptilechannel.com/frogs-...-venomous.aspx
http://www.snakeman1982.com/Venomous...0Poisonous.asp
http://cals.arizona.edu/main/spotlig...uick-reference


http://villageofjoy.com/10-most-pois...-in-the-world/
http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com...us-species/697

Sorry, I really like finding and posting links. Now what I am going to do is read through every one of these, come to my conclusions based on what I read and post my own view (I already have a feeling as to what the answer is but I'm not going to make my decision based on my prior knowledge).

You know my sources, you know how I came across this info (google, wiki, and dictionary) and can verify based on my sources my final decision. Please feel free to comment on it, call me out on it, etc.

Partial conclusions:

Dictionary: Venom is a type of poison, poisons include all chemicals that seem capable of destroying life or tissue, or at least cause health problems. It remains to be seen if concentrated saline solutions would thus fall under this heading. Venom earns it's heading by being injected or administered by organisms that somehow have this in them, instead of just from swallowing or touching.

Wiki: It seems poisons are notable by being produced by non-organic means (they may be organic but are not produced by living organisms), toxins are produced by organisms and venom is a type of toxin. Venoms are also injected. This leaves poison as the seeming outliers of the three, venoms are toxins and toxins are produced by organisms.

It seems that there isnt actually a hard and fast rule to distinguish between them, though, as many poisons are actually created by organic means, meaning there is an overlap.

Bnet claims that venom is to be injected or delivered into another organism by mechanical means, and that poison is yucky and is to be absorbed.

Preserve Venomous has out of date information on Komodo Dragons, which is pretty typical due to the studies showing they produce toxins instead of harboring bacteria is new. However they claim that poisons must be injected/absorbed while venoms are mechanically introduced to another organism and they are stored in specialized tissue instead of being located in large portions of an organisms body.

About also says that venoms are introduced mechanically. Poisons are not directly delivered.

The chevron cars site also states that: Venoms are used to make dinner and Poisons are used to stop from being dinner. And says the same things the others did.

Animal Corner again indicates that venoms are given by mechanical means while poisons are ingested/absorbed.

Reptile channel again states venoms are mechanically delivered and poisons are absorbed.

Robert C. Jadin again agrees that venoms are injected and poisons are ingested or absorbed.

The College of Agriculture and Life Sciences of Arizona states "Venom is injected via a bite or sting. Poisons are ingested or absorbed."

Village of Joy states that "A poisonous animal carries harmful chemicals called toxins primarily used for self defense. Therefore venomous animals deliver their toxins by stinging, stabbing, or biting." Even though they note the article as "Poisonous Animals"

Environmental Graffiti calls the Inland Taipan poisonous, while calling the whole article Venomous animals... Yeah...

Final Results:

The general consensus is that Poisons are absorbed by some means and venoms are mechanically delivered. Often it seems to be agreed that venoms are located in specialized organs while poisons seem to be more generalized. So while a spitting cobra's venom is aborbed, it is both mechanically delivered (launched) and it is in a specialized organ, just like other venomous snakes.

After thoughts:

"Poison" is used for just about everything toxic while few ever make a distinction between the broad range of poisons vs organically created toxins. That's a shame because it would be nice to have a clear distinction between all three. I do really like the idea of a distinction between the three, with poison referring to non-organically produced substances, toxins being organically produced and venoms being a type of toxin that is mechanically delivered.

Final comments:

Look, you all know what they mean, accept that people misuse the terms and dont bicker and argue over semantics, it's a waste of time and while I realize it's the true great american past time, just cut it out. Accept misuse, use it correctly yourself, explain it to people when you have the chance, but otherwise it isnt worth arguing about.

Also, forgive any silly mistakes I made, I havent slept yet....

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Originally Posted by Raverthug

.... As for the eating dabate. It would be considered a Poisson if you were to eat a venom gland. ...

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No debate mate. The fact is that anyone can eat (consume) the venom gland and its content without suffering any side effects.
The only danger is having a broken skin.

Theres a big difference between "venomous" and "poisonous". Venom, has to be injected to do any harm. You can drink cobra, adder, or even mamba venom, and have no ill effects. Well, it might not taste all that great, but it won't kill you. Poison, on the other hand, needs to be taken through the mouth, or it has to get into an open wound.

When someone asks you if your snakes are "poisonous" tell them "No, they aren't venomous either". The look on their face is awesome.