Ethics of Hybrids

What do you think of hybrid snakes?

How about ... "I don't care" :D

-adam

For those of you who answer "Yes-For Another reason"....feel free to post that reason if you desire.

Is breeding hybrids irresponsible? I don't think so.

Do some of the people who breed hybrid snakes act irresponsibly? Maybe. ;)

I'd own one.. I happen to think greenXyellow anacondas are one of the most beautiful snakes in the world.

The only thing to be cautious of is keeping good records so that hybrids are known as such and aren't confused with snakes of pure blood.

One snake, the coastal plains milksnake (lampropeltis triangulum temporalis) which is indigenous to the east coast is a wild occuring hybrid between the scarlet kingsnake and a species of milksnake whose name escapes me now..

An angle of concern might be a reproduction-capable hybrid possibly getting out into its native population and mucking in the gene pool . . . . then again I guess that would only be a real issue if it involved 2 species (geographically isolated) that might never otherwise cross each others paths . . .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Smulkin

An angle of concern might be a reproduction-capable hybrid possibly getting out into its native population and mucking in the gene pool . . . . then again I guess that would only be a real issue if it involved 2 species (geographically isolated) that might never otherwise cross each others paths . . .

---

Couldn't that same argument be made against keeping any non-native herp in a captive collection? The possibility of escape and inter-breeding with native species, "mucking up" their gene pool?

So if you were anti-hybrid based on that argument, when you boil it down to nuts and bolts, wouldn't you also basically have to be against keeping most herps in captivity for the same reason? Or at least very selective about what herps you'd allow kept in what areas geographically?

Just some food for thought. :carrot:

-adam

The tickled my left-brain. Ever take the LSAT???

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by elevatethis

The tickled my left-brain. Ever take the LSAT???

---

Nope, but I've spent A LOT of time around lawyers. ;)

-adam

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Couldn't that same argument be made against keeping any non-native herp in a captive collection? The possibility of escape and inter-breeding with native species, "mucking up" their gene pool?

So if you were anti-hybrid based on that argument, when you boil it down to nuts and bolts, wouldn't you also basically have to be against keeping most herps in captivity for the same reason? Or at least very selective about what herps you'd allow kept in what areas geographically?

Just some food for thought. :carrot:

-adam

---

Sure - you could extend the underlying logic to cover any number of scenarios not adressed in the original topic.

Quote:

---

Nope, but I've spent A LOT of time around lawyers. ;)

-adam

---

Just as bad if not worse than the actual test. :)

I look at hybridizing different animals in the same way that I see mixing localities... I do not see anything wrong with it as long as people that own them keep full records of their genetic history and do not market them as something that they are not...

Hybrids are not around in numbers like locality animals, so I think the type of problems that have happened with 'locality' animals will eventually happen with hybrids once they have higher numbers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Smulkin

Sure - you could extend the underlying logic to cover any number of scenarios not adressed in the original topic.

---

I think my point was that as a herp keeper, whether I agree or disagree with the production of hybrids, I wouldn't be particularly in favor of any argument either for or against them that could also be extended to potentially take away my rights to keep non-hybrid animals.

It may sound like a leap, but with the tide of anti-exotic politics sweeping across the US in recent years it would be a shame if anti herp legislation was fueled by an idea that came from a petty squabble within the herp community itself.

Not a sermon, just a random thought from a guy with a tremendous amount of passion for my right to keep these animals. ;)

-adam

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I think my point was that as a herp keeper, whether I agree or disagree with the production of hybrids, I wouldn't be particularly in favor of any argument either for or against them that could also be extended to potentially take away my rights to keep non-hybrid animals.

It may sound like a leap, but with the tide of anti-exotic politics sweeping across the US in recent years it would be a shame if anti herp legislation was fueled by an idea that came from a petty squabble within the herp community itself.

Not a sermon, just a random thought from a guy with a tremendous amount of passion for my right to keep these animals. ;)

-adam

---

A valid concern. I was just trying to respond to the OP's Poll topic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Smulkin

A valid concern. I was just trying to respond to the OP's Poll topic.

---

Yup, got that. :D I was just discussing. ;)

-adam

I chose that I would keep one. The only main concern I would have is with the process of finding out what hybrid crosses work. Its disheartening thinking about the crosses that didnt work and what various stages offspring might make it to before their life ends. Basically genetic deformities or mutants that can't survive. Although I'll be the first to admit that I can't speak from experience maybe this a more rare occurance than I would think.

I would own a hybrid, if I had the $$$$ to buy the flippin' sweet lookin GTP and JCP cross....so cool lookin'! But I am in total agreement with Adam. Why worry about this topic when there are BIGGER topics regarding keeping snakes to worry about.....A lot of states around my area are "cracking down" on the keeping of reptiles. I used to live in DE, and most folks in DE are keeping there BPs in fear because you see all the time people getting their private collections taken away just because they didn't have a permit to keep them. ....Which is why I don't live in DE anymore.In DE, you have to pay $25.00 per snake and in New Castle county, you have to have an acre of ground as well. Pleeez!!! I don't even know if an acre of ground even exsists anymore in New Castle county. Could you imagine if breeders like Adam had to pay $25 per snake just to be able to own them legally??!!!! Issues like these are what we need to take a stand about and fight for...

I'd love to own a hybrid. These gas prices are killing me! :imslow: :ohmygod:

Quote:

---

I'd love to own a hybrid. These gas prices are killing me!

---

LMAO.

Anyways, I own two crosses and let me tell ya, I've been in more heated arguements over them than I have with my baby's mother. That's a lot. I don't see why people, who won't buy them to begin with, have such a problem with me owning them. Jeesh! I also have come to the conclusion that those with this problem seem to have the same problem with any type of genetic morph. :groinkick That's what I got to say!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TekWarren

I chose that I would keep one. The only main concern I would have is with the process of finding out what hybrid crosses work. Its disheartening thinking about the crosses that didnt work and what various stages offspring might make it to before their life ends. Basically genetic deformities or mutants that can't survive. Although I'll be the first to admit that I can't speak from experience maybe this a more rare occurance than I would think.

---

Hybrid offspring are generally hardier and healthier than their parent stock (it's known as 'hybrid vigor')

If the cross doesn't 'work' then the eggs will simply not be fertilized in the first place.. at least that is how I understand it.

Whenever I think hybrid, I usually think mule. (offspring of horse and donkey) It was widely utilized since it had many of the good aspects of both, except that it is sterile. Of course this is not a herp example, but one that shows that when it's to our benefit no one says much about it. :rolleyes:

The only problem I have with this issue is when you can't be sure if you're getting a "pure" bloodline because of all the under-the-table hybridizing that goes on. Or, even if the original breeder keeps good, honest records, once he sells that hybrid to someone else, the control over how it is represented is out of his hands. And if that animal changes hands multiple times, the chances are high that no one will ever know what it's true bloodline was to begin with.


Other than the dishonesty sometimes associated with hybrids, I see NO moral issues here at all. If you like 'em...more power to ya. If you don't like 'em...then be careful what you buy and from whom. (Well, anyone should be careful anyhow! LOL)

How would that affect the snake, or is it just the fact that you "might" have a tainted species? Would it be similar if you bought a Lemon Pastel and it actually had some Graziani mixed in?

I can see where you're coming from, though. I supposed I wouldn't be happy if I bought a BCC and it turned out to have BCI mixed in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xdeus

How would that affect the snake, or is it just the fact that you "might" have a tainted species? Would it be similar if you bought a Lemon Pastel and it actually had some Graziani mixed in?

I can see where you're coming from, though. I supposed I wouldn't be happy if I bought a BCC and it turned out to have BCI mixed in.

---

I'm not saying it affects the snake, I'm just saying that I want to KNOW what I'm buying. Especially if I spend a lot of money and/or I plan to breed. How frustrating would it be to buy a pair of BCC's....spend all the time and effort to raise them up to a healthy breeding age....breed them...and half the babies they throw look just like Columbians?

And I don't consider it "hybrid" at all if a Lemon pastel is mixed with a Graziani. They're both ball pythons....that's no more a hybrid than any "Designer" morph. That being said...if I'm spending that much money on a snake, I want to know exactly what it's parentage is (as much as is reasonable), so I know what to expect come breeding time.

My view on hybridization is a bit on the fence due to past experience working in a private fishery in Canada and my own personal stance on messing too much with Mother Nature.

I feel that if you are talking about a group of creatures meant to stay within a captive state then that's one thing. As long as you breed from a standpoint of producing viable hybrids that are healthy and able to reproduce themselves successfully then I have no issues with this. As Judy mentioned, as long as records are kept and animals are represented properly as hybrids. My problem will always be when any creatures are affected by human intervention in their breeding process and the result is either defective young, birthing issues for the female or an inability for the offspring to live a normal, full life.

For creatures that are hybridized with the intent of release back to the wild, this is a sticky topic. An example is the Splake, a cross between a female lake trout and a male brook trout (it can't work the other way). The Splake carries the best of both fish but are hard to visually identify as they can look a lot like either parent or a mix of both. They work in that they are a fantastic game fish, mature and breed faster than the lake trout but grow bigger than the average brookie. They tend to school more than lakes and will fight either brook-like or lake-like, so you never know what to expect. Splake are said to be fully fertile but from my time in the fishery we saw a lot that were not for some reason or other. Sounds like a great fish but the problem is they can breed back diluting the pure lake and brook stock. Some areas where brooks naturally occur have stopped keeping size records due to this mess of not knowing if it's a large record size true brook or a splake or some combo therein. The other quite stupid thing is at least in some areas, the limit laws for splake are different from lake and brook trout but you can't always visually know what you have is either a pure or a hybrid fish.

I guess what I'm saying in all this is when we contemplate messing with hybrids we better think long and hard about the consequences to the creature, it's offspring and the future of both hybrids and the pure stock they came from.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shelby

Hybrid offspring are generally hardier and healthier than their parent stock (it's known as 'hybrid vigor')

If the cross doesn't 'work' then the eggs will simply not be fertilized in the first place.. at least that is how I understand it.

---

Not always true.....hybrid vigor does occur....for example, our bread wheat crop is a hybrid between a domesticated and wild variety.

But "hybrid breakdown" also occurs in many instances....for example, cotton plant hybrids produce fertile offspring (i.e give rise to an F2 generation) but over a couple more generations we see the hybrids grow weaker and die off.....

We also see the reduced fertility of many F1 hybrids including mules as someone pointed out.

We really dont know what occurs in a hybrid cross....

However, I see no problem with it.....I dont think it's for the begginner though.......Because you dont eactly know the care requirements for a hybrid. However, no one knew the captive care requirements for ball pythons until someone attempt to keep them in captivity.....

Oh I forgot to mention the Florida panther's, which are on the verge of extinction. But they are creating a hybrid with the Texas panther, which is increasing the population significantly. Of course these are probably on subspecies apart, so isn't quite in the same realm. But it brings up the usage of crosses to help species that have become endangered due to human interferance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by frankykeno

My view on hybridization is a bit on the fence due to past experience working in a private fishery in Canada and my own personal stance on messing too much with Mother Nature.

I feel that if you are talking about a group of creatures meant to stay within a captive state then that's one thing. As long as you breed from a standpoint of producing viable hybrids that are healthy and able to reproduce themselves successfully then I have no issues with this. As Judy mentioned, as long as records are kept and animals are represented properly as hybrids. My problem will always be when any creatures are affected by human intervention in their breeding process and the result is either defective young, birthing issues for the female or an inability for the offspring to live a normal, full life.

For creatures that are hybridized with the intent of release back to the wild, this is a sticky topic. An example is the Splake, a cross between a female lake trout and a male brook trout (it can't work the other way). The Splake carries the best of both fish but are hard to visually identify as they can look a lot like either parent or a mix of both. They work in that they are a fantastic game fish, mature and breed faster than the lake trout but grow bigger than the average brookie. They tend to school more than lakes and will fight either brook-like or lake-like, so you never know what to expect. Splake are said to be fully fertile but from my time in the fishery we saw a lot that were not for some reason or other. Sounds like a great fish but the problem is they can breed back diluting the pure lake and brook stock. Some areas where brooks naturally occur have stopped keeping size records due to this mess of not knowing if it's a large record size true brook or a splake or some combo therein. The other quite stupid thing is at least in some areas, the limit laws for splake are different from lake and brook trout but you can't always visually know what you have is either a pure or a hybrid fish.

I guess what I'm saying in all this is when we contemplate messing with hybrids we better think long and hard about the consequences to the creature, it's offspring and the future of both hybrids and the pure stock they came from.

---

Good points.....However, I dont realyl think it applies to Python hybrids in North America though since it would be irresponsible to release a Wild-type BP into the wild here.....

I guess it would apply to king/corn hybrids....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

We also see the reduced fertility of many F1 hybrids including mules as someone pointed out.

---

Yeah true. I know with savannah cats (a domestic cat / african serval hybrid) the F1 generation has only fertile females, and not males. But several more generations into the hybridization, the males gain fertility too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JLC

I'm not saying it affects the snake, I'm just saying that I want to KNOW what I'm buying. Especially if I spend a lot of money and/or I plan to breed. How frustrating would it be to buy a pair of BCC's....spend all the time and effort to raise them up to a healthy breeding age....breed them...and half the babies they throw look just like Columbians?

And I don't consider it "hybrid" at all if a Lemon pastel is mixed with a Graziani. They're both ball pythons....that's no more a hybrid than any "Designer" morph. That being said...if I'm spending that much money on a snake, I want to know exactly what it's parentage is (as much as is reasonable), so I know what to expect come breeding time.

---

I know, I wasn't trying to equate a Ball morph combo with a hybrid. My point was whether or not it mattered what the lineage was if you were receiving a quality snake. I think right now it's a big issue because this is a relatively new hobby and a lot of people are just getting involved. I would be more concerned that someone was breeding a defective animal than a hybrid or mixed morph. You do make a good point about the BCC vs. BCI offspring, but honestly I'm not sure how the genetics would work in that case and if you would eventually get more offspring that resemble one species or the other, or just a blend similar to the parents. If it's the latter, then I probably wouldn't mind because I would be buying the snake based on the parents.

This will probably be a moot point in a few decades anyway. Unless there was some way of keeping track of the entire lineage of a snake, there will probably be some chance of it having a mixed genetic pool somewhere down the road. I know many breeders keep great records, but I don't think that will be enough to insure that the gene pool remains pure.

IMHO

i believe that as long as you are producing animals which aren't born (or will develop) health issues or physical disabilties (this is not including the ability to make offspring) then its OK.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

For those of you who answer "Yes-For Another reason"....feel free to post that reason if you desire.

---

i think designer hybridization can make some really fantastic looking animals.
but... i really believe that keeping some subspecies separate is really important. the main scenario for this is with australian pythons (morelia especially). we can't import these animals anymore and the more we intergrade subspecies the more useless i think they are in herpetoculture.

just my opinion... don't mean to offend anyone that produces those crazy 86.88% diamond/5.32434535% jungle/7.9453454% jaguar carpets.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kzooherpetoculturist

i think designer hybridization can make some really fantastic looking animals.
but... i really believe that keeping some subspecies separate is really important. the main scenario for this is with australian pythons (morelia especially). we can't import these animals anymore and the more we intergrade subspecies the more useless i think they are in herpetoculture.

just my opinion... don't mean to offend anyone that produces those crazy 86.88% diamond/5.32434535% jungle/7.9453454% jaguar carpets.

---

Just wondering...why cant we import them? Endangered status?

i dunno.. any australians here? lots of countries have laws like that, australia just came to mind.

There are lots of Austrailian laws that prevent the exportation and importation of animals....most stem from declining natural populations and invasive species problems (freakin rabbits and toads)....that is why you will never see WC austrailian animals around....and if you do, they are probably here illegally.

Here is a good read:

http://www.comlaw.gov.au/ComLaw/Legi...der%202004.pdf

I think this falls in the same aspect as knowingly breeding a "kinked caramel" or a "spinning spider". If the trait is not known to be inheritable, then what's the problem with it? (rhetorical question, not trying to hijack here..)

The fact that hybrids can be healthy is not the issue, I don't think. The main issue with hybrids is... well, take the Angolian Ball. It LOOKS very much like a straight Ball... Heck, even the regular Angolian Pythons look kinda like Balls. So if you are known in the industry to own one, and you produce a new morph... people are going to wonder if you actually created a new Hybrid... not really a new morph.

Just my thoughts on the matter...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Couldn't that same argument be made against keeping any non-native herp in a captive collection? The possibility of escape and inter-breeding with native species, "mucking up" their gene pool?

So if you were anti-hybrid based on that argument, when you boil it down to nuts and bolts, wouldn't you also basically have to be against keeping most herps in captivity for the same reason? Or at least very selective about what herps you'd allow kept in what areas geographically?

Just some food for thought. :carrot:

-adam

---

Adam brings up a great point.

Designer Morphs with multiple recessive alleles if released back into the wild would likely have just as much "detrimental" on the gene pool as any hybrid.


If your against all hybrids, then you probably should be against producing any designer morph.


Now with that being said, I'm not for all hybrids or all morphs.....I'm only for a vast majority of both of them....


I am against propagating any morph or hybrid that has gross health problems, such as the unproven Derma Ball Morph I read about yesterday....this snake has no scales or heat pits.....if this trait is genetic, I would think this trait would be tremendously stressful on a snake...like breeding a blind dog....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

Adam brings up a great point.

Designer Morphs with multiple recessive alleles if released back into the wild would likely have just as much "detrimental" on the gene pool as any hybrid.

---

You missed my point completey. My point had nothing to do with designer morphs ... my point is that if you're going to be against hybrids AND use the argument that they could escape/be relased into native populations and pollute the gene pool, then you would either also have to argue that keeping ANY herp in captivity that could inter-breed with the local native population should also not be allowed ... or you would be incredibly inconsistent in your argument and hence baseless. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

I am against propagating any morph or hybrid that has gross health problems, such as the unproven Derma Ball Morph I read about yesterday....this snake has no scales or heat pits.....if this trait is genetic, I would think this trait would be tremendously stressful on a snake...like breeding a blind dog....

---

What gross health problems does the Derma have exactly? It hasn't even reproduced yet to know if the trait is genetic? Are you referring to the so called "lack of heat pits"? You should probably read up on your snake physiology a little more. That statement is a bit like saying that a snake without a tounge lacks a jacobsons organ. The derma is eating, growing, and breeding ... I'm not sure exactly what "tremendous stress" that snake has. What did you read yesterday to make you believe that Justins animal has "gross health problems"? Have you spoken with Justin about the animal or seen it in person?

Are you really forming an opinion based on an internet posting by someone you don't know that may or may not even have factual information about the animal?

-adam

Uh oh! Here comes the derma ball debate!

I think in the case of the derma ball, or any other hybrid or morph, if the animal seems to eat, grow, and otherwise live a normal life doing whatever it is snakes do to pass the time, its okay in my book in the hands of a responsible keeper.

Just from poking around on boards and whatnot...it looks like the derma ball is doing just fine. Thats not the first scaleless snake either...there's been rattlesnakes and rat snakes that have shown up scaleless, and live normal lives. If the keeper were to release them to the wild...its the keeper that should go in the freezer, not the animal!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

Designer Morphs with multiple recessive alleles if released back into the wild would likely have just as much "detrimental" on the gene pool as any hybrid.

---

LMAO....i just got the picture of someone with a bumblebee spider flying to Africa to set it free! You have to consider where 'wild' is for these animals. I don't see anyone going to Angola to release an Angolan python hybrid ;)

I do not think that the 'released back into the wild' situation seems realistic when discussing any non-native species like pythons and boas. The majority of the pythons and boas kept in the US would quickly 'die off' once exposed to winter conditions....the exception to this is Florida...ha ha..and even in Florida...you could actually look at morphs as a preventative to invasive snakes.....how hard would it be to spot burms in the everglades if they were all albinos??

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by elevatethis

Uh oh! Here comes the derma ball debate!

---

No debate from me ... I really could not care less about the derma ball ... I'm just not a big fan of information like "the derma ball has gross health problems" being propagated on internet forums when there is ZERO evidence to support that claim.

I don't think that it's right to state speculation as fact based on hearsay and innuendo read from anonymous sources on the internet.

-adam

Me niether...the good thing about message boards is that it allows communication at a level never seen before in this hobby. The bad thing is that people often read threads and automatically accept the information therein as fact.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

You missed my point completey. My point had nothing to do with designer morphs ... my point is that if you're going to be against hybrids AND use the argument that they could escape/be relased into native populations and pollute the gene pool, then you would either also have to argue that keeping ANY herp in captivity that could inter-breed with the local native population should also not be allowed ... or you would be incredibly inconsistent in your argument and hence baseless. Can't have your cake and eat it too.



What gross health problems does the Derma have exactly? It hasn't even reproduced yet to know if the trait is genetic? Are you referring to the so called "lack of heat pits"? You should probably read up on your snake physiology a little more. That statement is a bit like saying that a snake without a tounge lacks a jacobsons organ. The derma is eating, growing, and breeding ... I'm not sure exactly what "tremendous stress" that snake has. What did you read yesterday to make you believe that Justins animal has "gross health problems"? Have you spoken with Justin about the animal or seen it in person?

Are you really forming an opinion based on an internet posting by someone you don't know that may or may not even have factual information about the animal?

-adam

---

Your right.....I did say if it is genetic......

I shouldnt have been more careful.....lets say if the derma has problems then I wouldnt be for its propagation......but again it gets blurry melanin has a protective effect against UV radiation and we dont seem to mind breeding albinos....

Health problems depends on the stituation.....most captive bred animials would have problems in the wild.....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Are you referring to the so called "lack of heat pits"? You should probably read up on your snake physiology a little more. That statement is a bit like saying that a snake without a tounge lacks a jacobsons organ. The derma is eating, growing, and breeding ... I'm not sure exactly what "tremendous stress" that snake has. What did you read yesterday to make you believe that Justins animal has "gross health problems"? Have you spoken with Justin about the animal or seen it in person?

Are you really forming an opinion based on an internet posting by someone you don't know that may or may not even have factual information about the animal?

-adam

---

Does it or doesnt it have heat pits?

I would also think that a snake without a tongue would have trouble using its Jacobson organs......my understanding is the snake flicks its tongue to collect and sample molecules from the surronding envirnoment and places its forked tongue into the two openings on the organ so that they can be read by it and interpretted by the brain.

If I have something wrong about this, please educate and correct me. Thanks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

Does it or doesnt it have heat pits?

---

So you don't even know and you're condeming the animal?

The "heat pits" are not scales, they are nerve ending inside of the animals skin. If the animal can hunt and kill prey, how does it even matter?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

I would also think that a snake without a tongue would have trouble using its Jacobson organs......my understanding is the snake flicks its tongue to collect and sample molecules from the surronding envirnoment and places its forked tongue into the two openings on the organ so that they can be read by it and interpretted by the brain.

---

I have two snakes in my collection without tounges that eat and breed just fine.

What is your definition of "healthy"? ... Are you looking for "perfection" in order for an animal to be considered "healthy"?

-adam

Did I have a post on this thread pulled? Are you kidding me? ... Maybe I just lost it in the ethos?? Must have been the ethos! :D ... Since I save everything I post, lets try this again. :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

Your right.....I did say if it is genetic......

---

No, but you said ....

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

I am against propagating any morph or hybrid that has gross health problems, such as the unproven Derma Ball Morph I read about yesterday....this snake has no scales or heat pits

---

---

You equated "gross health problems" to the derma ball.

That is my point of disagreement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

but again it gets blurry melanin has a protective effect against UV radiation and we dont seem to mind breeding albinos....

---

Good thing there's no UV radiation in my home or at my shop. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

Health problems depends on the stituation.....most captive bred animials would have problems in the wild.....

---

There have been adult albino ball pythons (as well as other adult mutations) collected from the wild that are now thriving in captivity with no health problems.

There have also been adult scale less rattle snakes found and recorded in the US that were thriving.

-adam

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

What is your definition of "healthy"? ... Are you looking for "perfection" in order for an animal to be considered "healthy"?

-adam

---

I'm hardly saying that healthy is perfect...in biology there is no perfect animial...it's all about trade-offs.

Thanks for the info on the heat pits.....I saw it on this board in a thread you were involved in.....you didnt correct it there...thanks for setting the record straight....

DO you feed the two snakes without tongues live? Just wondering.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

The "heat pits" are not scales, they are nerve ending inside of the animals skin. If the animal can hunt and kill prey, how does it even matter?

---

Hmm... I thought the heat pits were formed by the scales which gave access to the sensitive nerve endings on the skin. Not that it matters, but correct me if I'm wrong. :bolt:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xdeus

Hmm... I thought the heat pits were formed by the scales which gave access to the sensitive nerve endings on the skin. Not that it matters, but correct me if I'm wrong. :bolt:

---

It's the nerve endings that do the work.

If you were missing your toe nails, you'd still be able to walk, you'd just have less to chew on at night while watching American Idol. :D

-adam

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

you didnt correct it there...

---

Well, you can't catch em all. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

DO you feed the two snakes without tongues live? Just wondering.

---

They are both currently eating live, but since they've been in my care over the past 10 - 12 years, they've both taken F/T as well as P/K ... Doesn't matter to them or to me. ;)

-adam