Feeders Remorse???

I have a small group of ball pythons and most of them eat f/t rodents. Some of them will only accept live rodents. To keep a reliable and steady flow of live rodents I have started raising a small group of rats. This is going fine and the rats are reproducing as planned. The snakes are eating the rats.

All is perfect right? Not at all :(

Part of the reason that I keep ball pythons is that I love animals. It really makes me sad to feed live and it makes me even more sad when I have raised the rats for this purpose. I am trying very hard to keep in mind that this is nature and to not be so upset about it. However that does not seem to be working for me thus far, 2 months. Enough babbling. For those of you in a similar situation does this feeling slowly disappear? I am willing to give it some time as I really enjoy the pythons. However I do not think I can win this battle every week for ever.

Thank you for reading this post and your valued response.

I can completely sympathize. I started breeding my own rats about 3 months ago, and I've gone from the original 5 to at least 70 with two females ready to drop litters any day. I enjoy the rats, never thought I would, but they are neat critters. Two things that have helped me keep things in perspective are this: 1) old cowboy saying "never name something you may end up eating" 2) I focus on the process, not the individuals. Meaning I enjoy the process of caring for my rats, not the individual rats. Don't focus on any ONE, look at the whole.

My problem now, ironically, is not the six year old little girl, its her mom! the six year old has no problem with the concept that the rats will eventually end up as food, even though she enjoys playing with the hoppers. Her mom, however, has names for about a dozen of them, and has started asking "you aren't really going to feed Fred to the snakes, are you?". So, I'm in trouble!

I do enjoy raising the rats and laugh at their antics occasionally. But I have no problem feeding them off, I have no problem looking at a cow and going "MMMMMM STEAK". Its all the circle of life. In todays age we have become distant of the kill and slaughter of animals for food. If you had to butcher your own meat and had done it your whole life, this wouldn't even cross your mind. :)

Funny Story:

I met a lady about a month ago, she was at a chicken dinner fund raiser for a local family. They had an awesome chicken dinner followed by an auction. In the auction they had a group of live chickens for "egg laying". They stated that in the auction they were great for having fresh eggs every morning. The lady turned to me and said "I could never eat a egg laid by a chicken". So I thought she didn't eat eggs, her husband turned and said "what do you think we had for breakfast this morning?" LOL!!! She didn't even realize the eggs she eats for breakfast were from chickens. She thought they just came from somewhere. LOL.

I remember years back when I got my first ball, that I was somewhat torn during feeding time. I was absolutely enthralled by the way my snake would kill and swallow an entire mouse, yet I felt strange because I was the indirect cause of death. I had kept a few rats as pets for 5 or 6 years prior, and I think that added to my internal struggle, but the enjoyment of watching the way nature has shaped the feeding response of snakes soon overshadowed that feeling of guilt. After many years of feeding many snakes (mainly live), I can't say that I don't feel anything when I hear a thump and then a squeal (sometimes it's relief with those finicky feeders) but it definitely doesn't affect me like as it did for the first while.


I do have rules when it comes to the rodents though, no attachments. No naming, no "set this one aside", no pets. My nephews and nieces that come visit seem fine with the fact that all the rodents are eventual food, they even gave me all their gerbil babies for a couple years with the intention that they would become food.

I do everything I can to keep my rodents healthy and happy, but I only see them as food, otherwise I think it would be more difficult. Once I started breeding my own rodents, I had been feeding a good number of live every week for years, so I have never felt that personal attachment to them.

Hope this helps.

-Evan

:8: You've got to be kidding me! Wow, that's a new low :giggle: . Anyways, about feeders, I have a pet rat, but she will never be fed off, because all of her babies will be. I understand that sometimes to some people it sounds cruel, but it has never really effected me. Maybe I'm just too desensitized for my own good. Just don't let yourself get attached, and think of it as a relatively quick way for them to pass on, and the way to keep your snake alive.

Thank you for the words of encouragement! Hopefully these feelings of remorse will dull with time.

Think of it like this...Rats are at the bottom of the caste and you are just expediting the process! You're helping them move up sooner!

Cue, I am with you. Part of the reason I have no intention of raising rats. I don't mind getting hatchlings started on live but I prefer to get them switched to FT as quickly as possible. Not sure I could stomach raising an animal up and feeding it off. Or even worse, gassing them. Its just me..Of course my views are pretty warped anyway because I have dont have the same feelings towards humans. I am just an animal lover...

I totally went through what you did for a looooong time.

I had pet rats at the same time I had my first pair of BPs, and I just adored them. They are really great pets, and it's unfortunate that people miss out on what they have to offer. Because of this, I fed them both mice, and lots of em. With 2 pythons, spending the extra like $4 bucks a week to feed mice instead of rats was worth it.

But then more Bp's started crawling into my house somehow...? :confuzd: LOL, so it was time for rat feedings. The BPs I got that were like starved because people thought they ate a mouse once every 2 months readily took frozen, but a lot of them weren't feeling that whole dig. I knew what I had to do, so I kind of just did it. It was REALLY hard at first, because I wanted to play with them and I remembered my pet rats and how sweet they were.

It's been about 1/2 a year, and It's getting better. It helps not to look at the rat thinking "fido", or think about what's going to happen. Didn't anyone tell you that the less you think the better off you are?? :P No, really though, the less you look at them and think about how cute they are the better. MUCH better. The death squeal will always give a little jab to your heart though, but you numb to it some.

I think with some conditioning, your mind will settle. I hope all goes well!:hug:

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But then more Bp's started crawling into my house somehow...? :confuzd:

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ROFL! Do you think that line of confusion would work on my husband? New BP??? I don't know dear...he just sort of followed me home!

You know Chris I wondered if I'd have problems with feeding off rats as I have had them in the past as pets (pre-snake days). At first it was a bit odd but then I made some decisions that make me feel fine about it. Just my mindset of course, so don't take it as gospel LOL.


The breeding colony rats each have names, they live very well in the best way I know how to not only let them breed well but also to thrive as animals in my care. I'm not doing it the most cost effective way but it's still reasonable that way and I found the balance of what works for me and for my colony breeders. I also won't be feeding off my good breeders as they age out. They will just go hang out and retire. That may seem silly but it's my own little thank you for their contribution to my snake's well being.

The feeders also are kept as best I can...no overcrowding and tons of good eats and clean bedding. Stuff to play in (tubes etc). I can't give them a long life but I can know that I provided them a good life while they existed. For me that makes it okay as I know rats live pretty tough wild so these captive feeder rats have a pretty fine life albeit a short one. They however are never given a name or handled more than necessary (they all get a once a week physical checkover when I do my population count). I know that their ending in a snake's tub will be extremely fast and clean so they won't suffer unduly.

For me, Chris, I know what I can do for the rats and what for my morals I feel is right so that helps not feel badly. I also always remember I'm a meat eater to and sometimes I doubt the pig that provided our porkchops for tonight was treated half as decent as my breeder/feeder rat colony.

Hope this helps a bit.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

I also always remember I'm a meat eater to and sometimes I doubt the pig that provided our porkchops for tonight was treated half as decent as my breeder/feeder rat colony.

Hope this helps a bit.

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You can bet that the animals we eat will never be treated even a fraction as well as that! It all makes sense when you put it like that...

I'm not breeding feeders yet but I plan to when we have a bigger home. While I totally sympathize with you, I feel really lucky that I don't think I'll experience the same. Growing up on a farm, raising rabbits, chickens and turkeys which we personally slaughtered to put food on our table and helping neighbors slaughter and dress pigs and deer, I appreciate and respect the life the animal is giving (albeit unwantedly) so that I can eat and enjoy food.

I'm also fascinated by the anatomy of the animals; I remember being completely fascinated by the anatomy of the rabbits we slaughtered and dress and certainly looked forward to eating them. =)

I think we named them all and certainly the buck, who was coal black and named Calcutta, who was never eaten and lived a long life, eventually retiring to live in our house.

But take heart: you are caring properly for your feeder animals, who have a good life and a quick death and very happy snakes to get tasty good food. =)

I think another point to consider is this. No matter whether you feed live, pre-killed or frozen/thawed to your snakes, you are really nothing more than a cog in a very ancient wheel. Just a part of the predator/prey dynamic that's been going on long before any of us existed and will do so long after we all gone. You aren't doing anything Chris that isn't natural and right at least in my mind. Where you'd be wrong was if you didn't care about the rats well being. If you treated them poorly or disrespectfully or even with cruelty as I've seen some folks post (not here thank goodness) and you obviously do care.

It's probably partly because most of us have lived a very antiseptic city life where we don't think about our dinner walking around mooing or oinking, that we're a bit disconnected from the natural order of things. For me, growing up around hunters I'm comfortable with the way of things....predators eat prey...as it should be. We're just predators that managed to figure out how to get our prey neatly packaged in the meat department.

Feeding live though isn't for everybody and that's just fine too. Whatever works best for you and for the snakes is what in the end is best (at least in my lil ole opinion for what that's worth :P ).

Thank you all very much! I do feel much better not being alone and having hope for the future :)


I feed them Mazuri, seeds and hard fruit. I provide them with an aspen and pine bedding mixture. Their water is fresh with a splash of vanilla. They are cooled naturally from an underground cooler flowing cool air around them. I handle them with leather gloves so neither party gets too jumpy. Though when it comes time to feed them off I just want to let them go in the woods.

Time and yalls support will heal me!

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Originally Posted by cueball

I feed them Mazuri, seeds and hard fruit. I provide them with an aspen and pine bedding mixture. Their water is fresh with a splash of vanilla. They are cooled naturally from an underground cooler flowing cool air around them. I handle them with leather gloves so neither party gets too jumpy. Though when it comes time to feed them off I just want to let them go in the woods.

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If only I could live so well! =D

Good point in this thread so far...I used to feel that way a little...got over it with time. Honestly, these snakes are incredibly efficient killers and from what I've observed, any physical pain or suffering incurred appears to be minimal. During feeding, from inside the tub in the rack I'll hear a quick thump, a small squeal, and thats it. I really think the small squeal is more out of suprise than out of pain.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Honestly, these snakes are incredibly efficient killers and from what I've observed, any physical pain or suffering incurred appears to be minimal. During feeding, from inside the tub in the rack I'll hear a quick thump, a small squeal, and thats it. I really think the small squeal is more out of suprise than out of pain.

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Well, I dont want to start something here, but i would have to disagree a little. I've seen some rats struggling for their lives for minutes, just trying to breathe. Bones are broken, airways are restricted, and the bite itself it probably painful enough. I guess the word minimal is throwing me off. Again, I dont really want to start anything :lurk:

I also was raised on a farm. I had to slaughter and butcher pretty much everything. Chickens, turkeys, pigs, rabbits, and ducks. At 14 I wasnt strong enough to do a cow by myself so wed hire someone to do them. Add to that prey that I used to hunt ... pheasants, ducks, chuckar, deer, grouse, and rabbits.


The only time I feel a ping is when I have to put down some of my breeders. All the breeders have been named ... and my nephews name a few babies that we keep as breeders. They understand that all rodents and rabbits will at some point become reptile or raptor food (my nephews are now raised on the same farm I grew up on). I normally euthanize the breeders when my wife isnt around ... she knows they will be food ... just doesnt like to see them go down.

If you name your breeders and do have a hard time then putting them down at a later point, you can always trade them to a fellow herper. Sometimes just the process of you not having to feed them off can set your mind at ease.

Bryan

Everyone here makes wonderful points.

I swore I wouldnt own any type of rodents or rabbits anymore. I do not like the smell and my boyfriend just flat out dislikes all animals except Khan our male BP.
We assumed Khan was a f/t eater when we got him but we soon found out he wasnt. we had to feed him live. The first mouse we put in the cage was no problem. to me mice are ugly and to jumpy. Then the the next time we fed him I heard the rat (we feed him a big old one that night) made the saddest squeal I have ever heard. from then on I had to plug my ears each feed since i was afraid of that sad noise. Then we bought Lola who was also used to live rats. Her first feeding was supposed to be this little weanling. She didnt take it so I was stuck with this adorbale rat who i felt so bad for since he was so much still a baby. he would curl up on my chest and fall asleep for hours! I named him Fernando! Well about a week later he died (to young i guess) and I now had a hole in my heart. So the sucker i am I went and bought two female rats. One regular beige rat and then one black dumbo rat.
They live well and I give them plenty of attention. I didnt think I would get into rats but my girls are like little stinky people to me.

The hard part is we have a male albino rat who was "back up" incase lola wouldt take the f/t rat we bought. well she did and now i have this male that I dunno what to do with. Since its to large for khan and lola will hopefully stick to f/t this guys life is prolonged. I try not to handel him much since I know i'll get attatched but its hard. He is way more docile than my females and he is even softer. (my girls are rexs). I did name him mr. morimoto but call him whitey for short. that right there opens a whole new can of worms. I know I shouldnt name him but....oh well.

My advice is to think of it as part of a never ending cycle that is almost out of your hands. Its what has to be done in order for all things to balance themselves out.

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Originally Posted by Wild Bill

I do enjoy raising the rats and laugh at their antics occasionally. But I have no problem feeding them off, I have no problem looking at a cow and going "MMMMMM STEAK". Its all the circle of life. In todays age we have become distant of the kill and slaughter of animals for food.

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Exactly!

Distanance from food causes people to not understand the "circle of life" and villify predators such as the ball python that provide an important ecological function......Furthermore, people dont realize that the rich diversity of life (ie number of species) we see wouldnt be much less without predators that act as so called "keystone species" ....species whose very presence keeps their prey from competing other species to death.

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Originally Posted by Wild Bill

If you had to butcher your own meat and had done it your whole life, this wouldn't even cross your mind.

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We probably wouldnt have as many emergent first world chroinic illnesses ethier.....there is something very honorable about killing your own food. I am not hunter.....but I have immense respect for those that do hunt and wish I was taught how to do it.....

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People also dont realize that nearly every biomedical breakthrough can utilimately be traced back to animial research....vaccines, antibiotics, organ transplants, our understanding of cancer, the list goes on.....

Sure we can minimize and reduce the number of animials in some cases in biomedical research...for example, most toxicology assay can now be performed cheaper and more reliablly using biochemical or microbial assays....however, as long as people demand better medical treatments for disease.....animial research will be needed......

I dont think too many animial rights activists ever stop and not accept antibiotics or an organ if they need it.....

When we mine or build a new road we hurt way more animials and wild-life than most people even care to think about.....its like when you hear so many people die in world-war II...its such a high-number we cant really fanthom it easily....

As someone also pointed out........like feed colonies.....lab animial colonies have way better lives for the most part than their wild counter-parts....a lab mouse or rat never straves and can always find a mate.....

In fact, there are so many regulations on animial research now sometimes its hard no to think they dont have a better life than we do.....

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

Exactly!

Distanance from food causes people to not understand the "circle of life" and villify predators such as the ball python that provide an important ecological function......Furthermore, people dont realize that the rich diversity of life (ie number of species) we see wouldnt be much less without predators that act as so called "keystone species" ....species whose very presence keeps their prey from competing other species to death.



We probably wouldnt have as many emergent first world chroinic illnesses ethier.....there is something very honorable about killing your own food. I am not hunter.....but I have immense respect for those that do hunt and wish I was taught how to do it.....

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People also dont realize that nearly every biomedical breakthrough can utilimately be traced back to animial research....vaccines, antibiotics, organ transplants, our understanding of cancer, the list goes on.....

Sure we can minimize and reduce the number of animials in some cases in biomedical research...for example, most toxicology assay can now be performed cheaper and more reliablly using biochemical or microbial assays....however, as long as people demand better medical treatments for disease.....animial research will be needed......

I dont think too many animial rights activists ever stop and not accept antibiotics or an organ if they need it.....

When we mine or build a new road we hurt way more animials and wild-life than most people even care to think about.....its like when you hear so many people die in world-war II...its such a high-number we cant really fanthom it easily....

As someone also pointed out........like feed colonies.....lab animial colonies have way better lives for the most part than their wild counter-parts....a lab mouse or rat never straves and can always find a mate.....

In fact, there are so many regulations on animial research now sometimes its hard no to think they dont have a better life than we do.....

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so what your reaalllyyy trying to say is?....
(all you waynes world fans)

Just one question, Cueball: Does a blouse come with that dress you're wearing? :P

J/K... I think it does get easier the more you do it. Right now I'm euthanizing about 40 rats a month, and at first it was pretty tough because they're right out of the weanling stage and about as cute as you can get. I just put myself in "autopilot" now and get very mechanical about it. I'll still play with them when I'm cleaning cages, but I put all of the behind me when it's time to do the deed.

I also look at it from another perspective. Generally people in this country have become rather spoiled when it comes to things of this nature. You go to the store and pick up a pack of hamburger meat or hot dogs, and you don't really think much about it. It's just a food item like anything else in the grocery store, but you don't think much about the animal that gave its life to feed you. I figure eauthanizing rats are my way of appreciating the lives I take for granted to feed myself or my pets.

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Originally Posted by 4Khan

so what your reaalllyyy trying to say is?....
(all you waynes world fans)

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What I am trying to say is that if you have feeder's remorse.....you might also want to think of having "medicine remorse" or "economic development remorse"....having these remorses arent necessarily bad...they'll make you appreciate all that we have in this county and why economic and societal substainabilty is a worthy goal....so that the circle of life and our socity dont carsh

I also think if you broaden your perpective like this it will help your feeder's remorse subside.....

When I would euthanize and freeze my own rodents, I always was very aware that if one of my snakes decided not to eat....I killed a rodent for no reason. Since I am an avid hunter, I have been taught to respect life and never waste what I kill....so that always seems to bother me a bit.

When keeping animals that live solely on rodents, you just have to accept the fact that the rodents will die somewhere along the line. Personally, I have no problem euthanizing rodents.....but it bother me when they are 'wasted'.

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Just one question, Cueball: Does a blouse come with that dress you're wearing? :P

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Lawrence! You poopyhead! Buwhahahha! :8:

So here I am, this hardened farm-girl, tomboy...I had bought a pinky for Carmen (I know, too small, long story) but ended up not feeding her. Sooo...what I am going to do with this pinky? So tiny, so helpless, so cold...=( I held him for like 20 minutes, trying to warm him up a bit and figure out what to do. Almost drove him back to the store where I buy my feeders so that he could be back with a momma mouse...nearly cried trying to figure out what to do with this helpful little thing...

Ended up giving it to Cleo (who slurped it down in about 3 seconds - what a pig!)...but I was glad to have not wasted the little guy or his life and that he didn't suffer any longer (as I assumed he was).

See?! Tomboys are softies too! AND I have my toe nails painted...so...neener.

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Originally Posted by cueball

Thank you all very much! I do feel much better not being alone and having hope for the future :)


I feed them Mazuri, seeds and hard fruit. I provide them with an aspen and pine bedding mixture. Their water is fresh with a splash of vanilla. They are cooled naturally from an underground cooler flowing cool air around them. I handle them with leather gloves so neither party gets too jumpy. Though when it comes time to feed them off I just want to let them go in the woods.

Time and yalls support will heal me!

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Sounds like your rat colony is living the good life and as far as "want to let them go in the woods" just remember a rodent is food to just about everything out there so it's not going to go be free and hang out with the bunny rabbits...it's gonna be something's dinner p.d.q.

As far as whether a rat suffers when it's taken down by a snake, we'll never really know. Again, and I know I babble on about Mother Nature but, who are we to say what happens and who feels what, when and how. Snakes were designed to eat rodents, rodents were designed to be the perfect and complete meal for a snake. It's only when us humans with our emotional brains get involved that it becomes complicated beyond what it is - a straightforward perfectly designed system.

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Originally Posted by adizziedoll

Well, I dont want to start something here, but i would have to disagree a little. I've seen some rats struggling for their lives for minutes, just trying to breathe. Bones are broken, airways are restricted, and the bite itself it probably painful enough. I guess the word minimal is throwing me off. Again, I dont really want to start anything :lurk:

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That's totally cool....I've seen the same thing too. However, in my experience, that situation is the exception to the rule. Banking on that, some people taking the humane stance would say that the small instance of that occurring is enough on its own to say that live feeding is no ethical for them. Its just not where I stand personally, and each of us will have to make that decision for ourselves, as well as accept the stance of others.

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

What I am trying to say is that if you have feeder's remorse.....you might also want to think of having "medicine remorse" or "economic development remorse"....having these remorses arent necessarily bad...they'll make you appreciate all that we have in this county and why economic and societal substainabilty is a worthy goal....so that the circle of life and our socity dont carsh

I also think if you broaden your perpective like this it will help your feeder's remorse subside.....

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I gotcha! and I totally agree with ya.
I work in a neonatal intensive care unit. Life on the thin line between here and gone is something I see all the time. the medical aspect to life is not only benefical but also cruel along so many other things. im no hippee and im no yuppie but at the end of the day it all boils down to respect for me. respect for animals/nautre, respect for other people and their views etc.
and i guess none of this really matters lol :sigh2: no one really cares!

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Originally Posted by 4Khan

no one really cares!

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Dont be so negative...a lot of people do!

This has really matured into a nice thread. It has stayed civil, deep and humorous. Exactly what I needed. Thank you all for the support, words of advice and hope for the future!


I am logging off for the weekend :colbert2:

We'll miss you :tears:


(not like he'll even send a postcard or nuthin....they never do....don't worry about us...we'll be fine...just have yourself a nice weekend...we'll just be over here on the haven't got a life couch...not a problem.....buh bye...see ya...sniffle....)

:P

We have 2 pet rats Mapp & Lucia.:D Will never BE dinner. We purchase rats for snakey dinner and we don't name them. 2 are enough, don't need to get attached to others.

Thus the reason I can only offer F/T rats... Mice, not a problem. I can toss in live mice with nary a twinge. But rats... I had pet rats too long. Thus I feel guilty unless they are are ice cubes

However I was raised in a hunting household and we raised feeder chickens most of my early years. Family raised beef cattle and pigs for pork so I was around quite a bit of that. ...I can't really mention the turkey...we all kinda got attatched to him and he became a very well known Guard Turkey. Jehovah's Witness's for miles around knew about him.

I grew up on a dairy farm raising our own pork, beef, chickens. The rabbits were a 4-H project & while the others ate the lamb, I never did. :bleh:


Peekaboo and Scabbers started out as Baby food, but outgrew her fasting, so they became pets. It got to the point where it was too expensive to keep buying rats, so I started breeding them. Peek's first litter, I kept Peachy as another breeder and fed or gassed the rest. Smudge was another meal that outgrew the snake's fasting time. Snow and Squeeky will be bred to Butterscotch but all of those will be gassed. Robin and Stewie were deliberately kept as pets for color (Robin) and because Stewie is actually Scabbers II for when S the 1st dies.

Yeah, I still feel bad about gassing them, and it hurt when the weanling pups squeeked when fed to Pissy, but I've bred a couple more litters that will be gassed. If I can rearrange the garage, then I'll keep them and raise them up BIG for Hera. None of the suppliers have XLG/JUMBOs and I'm currently feeding lg. f/t rats @ 2 rats/feeding to her. Zeus is taking large and Freddie was eating med.-lg.

Pissy keeps refusing the two live mice, so I figured feeding them to Wrigley and then just keeping everyone else on f/t rats of the different sizes that are in the freezer right now.

It's hard, and I empathize, Chris. It might be easier to switch your snakes to f/t. I think I might have to do that, depending on how I feel after these next one or two litters. It's easier for me to feed them when I'm not raising and handling them. The rats in the freezer aren't individ. animals to me---very anonymous and thus easier for me to feed to the snakes.

Even w/my farming background and knowing where the meat, milk and eggs come from, and since I'm still new to this feeder thing, I'm still having difficulty w/the rats. But maybe like the others, my feelings will change.

;) Hope you had a good weekend....

RuLyn

I think it is just a mental hurdle you need to get over, and after a few hundred more feedings Im sure you will.

You feed frozen, and that is easier than feeding live ones you raised, but when you look at a large producer of frozen rodents compared to yourself, it is pretty obvious that you have a better chance at taking good care of them.

I think the main issue is you dont think its wrong, but it still bothers you, and Im not sure anything we say will help you there. You need to come to terms with it on your own, and until then it will probably remain difficult.

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Originally Posted by Entropy

I can't really mention the turkey...we all kinda got attatched to him and he became a very well known Guard Turkey. Jehovah's Witness's for miles around knew about him.

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Oh what a visual! LOL Too funny! :rofl: