Africa?

I am curious about how breeders get their wild caught balls.
Do they get them for free from the wild?(if they get them from the wild, can you find morph?)
Do locals charge them for BP's they take from the wild?
Do they get them from farms that belong to locals?( do they charge for morphs, if so how much?)
Do they get the eggs or the hatchlings?

Wild caught... hrm

They are caught in the wild :).

CH = wild caught lays eggs, or a WC clutch is raided and they have eggs , and they are incubated in captivity.

So I guess if they own the land, or have rights to take them from the land, they get them for free (meaning hunting them down, or laying nets, etc to capture them).

Do they find morphs. Absolutely, but you have to consider the odds... definitely more co-dom morphs are found than recessive. (Yb, pastels, etc)

I'm sure most either have certain areas where they farm them from. Certain plantations that draw rodents for feeding, also draw snakes. I do not know for sure, but I imagine they either pay locals to go hunt them, or they pay for ones that are caught.

If a snake is being sold as a hatchling, CH or CB, then it was hatched in captivity. If they catch a hatchling in the wild, it should be considered WC

Again I'm not sure, but I feel think that there are higher up individuals who own most of the "farm" facilities, or the plantations on which more snakes are caught.



Just a note, this entire post was conjecture and what Ive gathered from reading. All or none of it could be true :) (minus the well known bits, like WC CH Etc)

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Originally Posted by herplover92

I am curious about how breeders get their wild caught balls.

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99% of the time big breeders get their wc balls from importers in the US, Europe, and Asia that get them from exporters in Africa. Smaller breeders usually get their WC's from middle men that get them from the importers. Some big breeders have relationships with trappers in Africa and get high end stuff directly.

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Originally Posted by herplover92

Do they get them for free from the wild?

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No. Nothing is free in this world.

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Originally Posted by herplover92

(if they get them from the wild, can you find morph?)

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Yes. Morphs can be and are found in the wild.

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Originally Posted by herplover92

Do locals charge them for BP's they take from the wild?

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You got that! ... Ball pythons are big business in West Africa ... tightly controlled ... a trapper that finds a morph in the wild can make enough money to feed his family for a year.

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Originally Posted by herplover92

Do they get them from farms that belong to locals?( do they charge for morphs, if so how much?)

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The trappers work for the farms that are controlled by the exporters. Yes, they charge big bucks for morphs. The prices are the same as they are over here ... the Africans have internet connections, they visit ks.com, they know what people are paying for these animals, and they get their piece of the pie.

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Originally Posted by herplover92

Do they get the eggs or the hatchlings?

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The eggs are collected from gravid females found in the wild and incubated on the farms in Africa.

-adam

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

All or none of it could be true :)

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Looks like mostly none. ;)

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

The prices are the same as they are over here ... the Africans have internet connections, they visit ks.com, they know what people are paying for these animals, and they get their piece of the pie.

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I don't see how that could be possible. I don't think too many people would pay the same price for a common WC morph as a proven CBB one. Look at the BEL and Lessers that are up for sale. I think Africa has a reptuation for poor quality as well (mites, parasites, hard to feed), so even if they did produce CBB morphs over there, they wouldn't get the same price as in the U.S. Of course they could charge a premium for new morphs, and will get it. I have to wonder how many of the new morphs are held back over there and bred, then shipped to an importer as a "one of a kind".

Thanks Adam, you the man, lol.
Have you ever got any from the wild, or have you ever went to Africa, Adam?
thanks again.
Samuel Zaglul.

that would be sweet to go herping in West Africa for Ball Pythons, not to mention all the other herps. I was asking Ralph about importing a while back and he said back in the day you could get pastels, albinos, etc... cheap, then he said its big business now over there so everything is priced the same as it is over here. I would much rather have a CBB one for the amount of money one will spend on a morph.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Looks like mostly none. ;)

-adam

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/shrug

I find it hard to believe that most of the farming is done on land owned by poor africans, rather than by rich land owners

like I said, I read/heard this information from a few sources, doesnt make any of it true.

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Originally Posted by xdeus

I don't see how that could be possible. I don't think too many people would pay the same price for a common WC morph as a proven CBB one. Look at the BEL and Lessers that are up for sale. I think Africa has a reptuation for poor quality as well (mites, parasites, hard to feed), so even if they did produce CBB morphs over there, they wouldn't get the same price as in the U.S. Of course they could charge a premium for new morphs, and will get it. I have to wonder how many of the new morphs where held back over there and bred, then shipped to an importer as a "one of a kind".

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beat me to the BEL and lesser comment.

I dont see how individuals (trappers) can actually get much money for morphs over there. If the suppliers refused to buy them, they wouldnt have any means to sell them.

It seems like there would have to be some organizational force over them in order to make this work, and that they would get most of the money

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

You got that! ... Ball pythons are big business in West Africa ... tightly controlled ... a trapper that finds a morph in the wild can make enough money to feed his family for a year.
-adam

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*pictures a poor trapper who can feed his family for a year on the revenues from a BP morph, surfing the web on a computer that could feed his family for a year if he sold it*

/edit, this comment was purely for humor, I know they can use internet without owning a computer, Im in an odd mood :)

Some of you are just speculating with info you pulled out of your butts. Read the last chapter in Kevin's book, The Complete Ball Python, and you'll be able to have a better discussion on a topic like this.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Some of you are just speculating with info you pulled out of your butts. Read the last chapter in Kevin's book, The Complete Ball Python, and you'll be able to have a better discussion on a topic like this.

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What Brad said...the folks in Africa are far from dumb; they know what these animals are worth and no one wants to get cheated out of the most they can get. And shoot, I'm sure many Africans read boards like this for that matter...people who actively read and post on messageboards like this are a big part of the ball python market. It's research, baby...=)

But yeah, what Brad said. We're missing the whole intrigue around the ball python market in Africa and that's the ball python lords...

Amen. I would think that the people living in the country that these snakes are native to would know as much as possible about that considering the extensive market that encompasses them.

NEVER underestimate people willing to make a few bucks here and there to keep their families thriving.

Ralph wrote a nice little shpeal on importing a few years back, and I assume most of it still holds true. Here's the link: Ralph's shpeal. I still haven't got a copy of NERD's book https://ball-pythons.net/forums/imag...h_sterb179.gif, so I don't what Kev has said about the topic.


-Evan

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Originally Posted by xdeus

I don't see how that could be possible. I don't think too many people would pay the same price for a common WC morph as a proven CBB one. Look at the BEL and Lessers that are up for sale. I think Africa has a reptuation for poor quality as well (mites, parasites, hard to feed), so even if they did produce CBB morphs over there, they wouldn't get the same price as in the U.S. Of course they could charge a premium for new morphs, and will get it. I have to wonder how many of the new morphs are held back over there and bred, then shipped to an importer as a "one of a kind".

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It's possible and it happens. You have to realize that there are two price structures on ball python mutations ... retail and wholesale ... Africa prices are the same as US wholesale. The difference between the prices is that in order to get the wholesale price (in either Africa or the US) you have to buy large quantities.

-adam

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Originally Posted by herplover92

Thanks Adam, you the man, lol.
Have you ever got any from the wild, or have you ever went to Africa, Adam?
thanks again.
Samuel Zaglul.

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Yes, I have animals that I imported from Africa years ago.

No, I have never been. It's not a fun place for outsiders to visit. The trappers and farmers are very protective of their property and business (ie. $$$) you can't just go over there and start collecting ball pythons without bad things happening to you ... like having your hands cut off with a machete.

-adam

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

/shrug

I find it hard to believe that most of the farming is done on land owned by poor africans, rather than by rich land owners

like I said, I read/heard this information from a few sources, doesnt make any of it true.

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Most of the land is tribal property farmed and cultivated by the tribes which also run the farms. It's a very different structure from the capitalistic framework you're trying to jam it into.

Looks like you've got some more reading to do. :rolleye2:

-adam

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

I dont see how individuals (trappers) can actually get much money for morphs over there. If the suppliers refused to buy them, they wouldnt have any means to sell them.

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The trappers find morphs and run to internet cafe and email the big breeders that they see on KS. They're not stupid. The problem is that if the exporter/farmer that they work for finds out, they get their feet cut off. :carrot: It's a dangerous game that's played over there.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Most of the land is tribal property farmed and cultivated by the tribes which also run the farms. It's a very different structure from the capitalistic framework you're trying to jam it into.

Looks like you've got some more reading to do. :rolleye2:

-adam

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Obviously :)

Glad I included the "I probably dont know jack" in my original post :)

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Some of you are just speculating with info you pulled out of your butts. Read the last chapter in Kevin's book, The Complete Ball Python, and you'll be able to have a better discussion on a topic like this.

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Are you talking to me? Or just in general. I read Kevin's book, and I also read a few things online. I obviously know nothing for fact, and there is nothing wrong with speculation if it is admittedly speculation.


Edit: Remind me never to post in a thread here with "speculation" in order to get a discussion going.


Just so I fit your description of speculation pulled out of my butt. I picture a dictatorship where one rich Foreigner, European, or American, but probably white, Has a lockdown on the land, and keeps his armed men patrolling, and seizes all ball pythons captured with very little food/pay given to the impoverished villagers/natives. When a trapper finds a morph, sometimes they risk life and limb to sneak their family and the morph out of the area so that they can buy their freedom from under the oppressor.

Thats just the beginning of what can come out of me bum, but Im sure we could make it into a movie.

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

*pictures a poor trapper who can feed his family for a year on the revenues from a BP morph, surfing the web on a computer that could feed his family for a year if he sold it*

/edit, this comment was purely for humor, I know they can use internet without owning a computer, Im in an odd mood :)

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The trappers from the tribes don't need to own computers ... they have access to them ... it's 2006 for petes sake. :rolleye2:

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

The trappers from the tribes don't need to own computers ... they have access to them ... it's 2006 for petes sake. :rolleye2:

-adam

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I know.. thats why I said "I know they can use internet without owning a computer, "

Can't a guy make a joke, that struck me as funny. (Think snake carrying a scale around africa looking for properly sized prey)

Adam, what percentage of base morphs do you think have been discovered already? It seems after the Ball market took off, there would have been a lot of Africans looking for anything interesting. If that's the case, it seems like their morph market might dry up in the next couple of years and people will focus mostly on the combos.

And here I thought this thread was a tribute to the Toto song :(

You may cut out my tongue for attempted humor ;)


Peace guys - let's have no territorial peeings.

Remember it is FRIDAY'S EVE!

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

The trappers find morphs and run to internet cafe and email the big breeders that they see on KS. They're not stupid. The problem is that if the exporter/farmer that they work for finds out, they get their feet cut off. :carrot: It's a dangerous game that's played over there.

-adam

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So let me get this straight... they own the land, but the exporter/farmer that they work for controls the whole trade to the extent that they can't sell their snakes without his permission upon penalty?

I still don't see how I was so far off :P Except about who owned the land

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

Are you talking to me? Or just in general. I read Kevin's book, and I also read a few things online. I obviously know nothing for fact, and there is nothing wrong with speculation if it is admittedly speculation.


Edit: Remind me never to post in a thread here with "speculation" in order to get a discussion going.


Just so I fit your description of speculation pulled out of my butt. I picture a dictatorship where one rich Foreigner, European, or American, but probably white, Has a lockdown on the land, and keeps his armed men patrolling, and seizes all ball pythons captured with very little food/pay given to the impoverished villagers/natives. When a trapper finds a morph, sometimes they risk life and limb to sneak their family and the morph out of the area so that they can buy their freedom from under the oppressor.

Thats just the beginning of what can come out of me bum, but Im sure we could make it into a movie.

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Geez. Y'make it sound like slavery all over again.

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Originally Posted by Melicious

Geez. Y'make it sound like slavery all over again.

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History is bound to repeat itself. In the future machines enslave all of humanity! It is inevitable!!

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

History is bound to repeat itself. In the future machines enslave all of humanity! It is inevitable!!

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WOW.

-adam

-Blinks.- And I'll be the first female president...

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

History is bound to repeat itself. In the future machines enslave all of humanity! It is inevitable!!

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I'd phone you Bryan but my cell won't get service in this area

I'd drive over but some computer chip in my car's engine has gone wonky and the car refuses to move

I'd email you but my computer won't speak to another computer unless it feels it wants to and since it's smarter than I am......:(

I am NOT enslaved to my machines! Really I'm not!

sssshhhhhh.....please don't tell my microwave I said that...if it stops working...I'M SUNK!!!!!

B's dream gurl!!



http://www.zenbutoh.com/charactergal...istmas-par.jpg

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

WOW.

-adam

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Trust me... I've been there:teevee: :couch: :tombstone

Its kinda over now, but the speculation I was talking about was making the thread look like a bunch of gas station attendants discuss how to drill for oil.

I'm a gas station attendant :sabduel:


I watched that Ball Pythons in the Wild vid and was hoping to get some of insight into how things are played out over there. I got nothing except a headache from the erratic camera motions and the fact that ball pythons are harvested like fruit from a tree.

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Originally Posted by Smulkin

Remember it is FRIDAY'S EVE!

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We need a happysnoopydance emoticon...=)

If they dont let you go herping for ball pythons how did Dr. Steve Gorzula did the Ball pythons in the wild DVD?

He was out there with a government sanctioned group (SITES) studying the effects of ball python harvesting, to make sure they weren't depleting the native populations. He got permission to film it as they went. He didn't just show up one day and say "I want to go hunt bp's and film it."

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Originally Posted by JLC

He was out there with a government sanctioned group (SITES)

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Huh?? This whole time I thought it was CITES.... (Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Flora and Fauna)

:P

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Originally Posted by ddbjdealer

Huh?? This whole time I thought it was CITES.... (Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Flora and Fauna)

:P

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Yeah yeah yeah......that's the one. :P I was close!

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Originally Posted by JLC

Yeah yeah yeah......that's the one. :P I was close!

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With all the time you have spent working on this Site lately it's easily understood!

:headbang:

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Originally Posted by Smulkin

With all the time you have spent working on this Site lately it's easily understood!

:headbang:

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Hehe...yeah! That's my story and I'm stickin' to it! ;)

I blame my contributions to this thread on the melted plastic fumes Ive been inhaling :rolleye2: :taz: