Typical Clutch Size

What is the typicial range seen in a clutch?

How many more eggs, if any, do you get if you wait for the female to pack on some extra grams?

Offhand I think 4-8 is an average clutch. Vaughn aka kavmon, just posted about one of his clutches of 13!! (Hope those are all still looking good :gj: ) Of course I'm tired so if I'm wrong, someone feel free to correct me. ;)

I think the average clutch size for a normal healthy breeding size female with good weight is 7-10 eggs. (someone correct me if I am wrong) If is is their first time, the clutch is usually smaller in size. Larger females do, however usually produce larger clutches. Someone on here (i forgot who) just had a big girl give him 13 nice eggs!!!...wish it were me.....

My average clutch size over the last 10 years has been 6.8 eggs.

Females typically lay clutches equal to 1/3 of their body weight and the average egg weighs about 100 grams. There are always exceptions to the rule, but this is what I see year after year on an overwhelmingly consistent basis.

That doesn’t mean that you should make your females as “big as possible” in order to get as many eggs as you can. Females that are too skinny will reabsorb their follicles, females that are too fat will either reabsorb or slug out. Girls should have an athletic "look" to them with no loose skin.

Hope this helps.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Girls should have an athletic "look" to them with no loose skin.
-adam

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And the snakes should too....;)

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Originally Posted by Gecko Den

And the snakes should too....;)

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LOL ... Well Sam, anyone that really knows me knows I was talkin snakes ... No athletic or skinny minnies for me ... I love the girls that make my rockin world go round. ;)

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I love the girls that make my rockin world go round. ;)

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ROFL!! that song is awesome:carouse: :rockon:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

My average clutch size over the last 10 years has been 6.8 eggs.

Females typically lay clutches equal to 1/3 of their body weight and the average egg weighs about 100 grams. There are always exceptions to the rule, but this is what I see year after year on an overwhelmingly consistent basis.

That doesn’t mean that you should make your females as “big as possible” in order to get as many eggs as you can. Females that are too skinny will reabsorb their follicles, females that are too fat will either reabsorb or slug out. Girls should have an athletic "look" to them with no loose skin.

Hope this helps.

-adam

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Thanks for the info.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

My average clutch size over the last 10 years has been 6.8 eggs.

Females typically lay clutches equal to 1/3 of their body weight and the average egg weighs about 100 grams. There are always exceptions to the rule, but this is what I see year after year on an overwhelmingly consistent basis.

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Great stats - thanks Adam!

I would also agree with Adam, 6-8 eggs is the average....My biggest clutch was 13 eggs and the smallest was 4....

I was wondering if an average 6-8 egg clutch would fit in a 6 quart Sterilite?

I'm sure it would if you could separate them, but what are the dimensions of a clump of 6-8 eggs? Also, is it imperative that they don't touch the sides of the box?

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Originally Posted by xdeus

I was wondering if an average 6-8 egg clutch would fit in a 6 quart Sterilite?

I'm sure it would if you could separate them, but what are the dimensions of a clump of 6-8 eggs? Also, is it imperative that they don't touch the sides of the box?

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Super important that the eggs don't touch the sides ... the sides of the box can become wet with condensation (especially during the last 2 weeks of incubation) and water will kill your eggs.

The 6qt box should be enough floor space for the eggs, but my concern would be the height ... I prefer a substantial amount of medium when I incubate my eggs and if the clutch is "stacked" by the female you might not be able to get the top on.

Also, I don't like to separate eggs if I don't have to ... lots of times the point that they were stuck together will mold if you separate them.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

The 6qt box should be enough floor space for the eggs, but my concern would be the height ... I prefer a substantial amount of medium when I incubate my eggs and if the clutch is "stacked" by the female you might not be able to get the top on.

Also, I don't like to separate eggs if I don't have to ... lots of times the point that they were stuck together will mold if you separate them.

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Thanks, Adam! I kind of suspected that about touching the sides. I didn't know that about separating them, though! I've read that if they were "set" to just leave them alone, but I didn't think there would be a problem if you got them right away.

Also, I'm not sure about the height, but I was going to try and use the no-sub method with a layer of saturated vermiculate underneath egg crate. Have you tried the no-sub method before? It seems like it would take a lot of the potential problems out of the equation, especially for us noobs.

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Thanks, Adam! I kind of suspected that about touching the sides. I didn't know that about separating them, though! I've read that if they were "set" to just leave them alone, but I didn't think there would be a problem if you got them right away.

Also, I'm not sure about the height, but I was going to try and use the no-sub method with a layer of saturated vermiculate underneath egg crate. Have you tried the no-sub method before? It seems like it would take a lot of the potential problems out of the equation, especially for us noobs.

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Nope, never tried no-sub ... I've been sitting eggs on hand mixed to the touch vermiculite for 20 years with fantastic success ... couldn't imagine doing it any other way. Kind of an "if it ain't broke" thing I guess.

What potential problems are you worried about? I can't think of anything?

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

What potential problems are you worried about? I can't think of anything?

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I've seen a lot of noobs have problems with the medium getting too moist or too dry, then they try to fix the problem only to make it worse, etc. Or perhaps their incubator is drying the substrate out more than they thought. It seems like the no-sub method would eliminate those possibilities.

Question.....Why do breeders seperate the mother from her eggs? What the advantage of this?

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Originally Posted by xdeus

I've seen a lot of noobs have problems with the medium getting too moist or too dry, then they try to fix the problem only to make it worse, etc. Or perhaps their incubator is drying the substrate out more than they thought. It seems like the no-sub method would eliminate those possibilities.

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I don't think it's any harder/easier to incubate eggs with sub vs. no-sub ... if you're going to screw it up, you'll screw it up either way. Just because the eggs aren't sitting directly on the substrate doesn't mean that they can't try out if they are over ventilated or that they can't get wet if the air around them becomes over saturated. I think that the guys using no sub would do just as well with a medium if they'd just try. ;)

Mixing vermiculite is sooo easy ... I don't see how it could be screwed up.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

Question.....Why do breeders seperate the mother from her eggs? What the advantage of this?

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I incubate my eggs manually because I can get the females back on food sooner ... not so much to get her up to breeding size the following season like many assume, but more to make sure her overall health is my top priority ... I'd rather loose a clutch of eggs than an adult proven breeder female.

I also find that incubators allow for a more stable controlled environment than my snake rooms. In my snake rooms I open windows, have people coming in and out, clean cages, there's always a lot going on ... not really the best environment for mothers incubating their eggs in my opinion. I only enter my incubator once or twice a day tops and the temps stay extremely stable and consistent.

I also can't stand the idea of not cleaning a females cage for 60 days!! ... The still urinate while they are on the eggs and the ammonia smell can't be good for them ... trying to clean around a female that is sitting on eggs can cause stress and really not in her best interest. Every snake in my collection gets cleaned at least once a week .... period! ;)

I have NOTHING against maternal incubation at all ... if it works for you, AWESOME! ... it's just not for me. ;)

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I incubate my eggs manually because I can get the females back on food sooner ... not so much to get her up to breeding size the following season like many assume, but more to make sure her overall health is my top priority ... I'd rather loose a clutch of eggs than an adult proven breeder female.

I also find that incubators allow for a more stable controlled environment than my snake rooms. In my snake rooms I open windows, have people coming in and out, clean cages, there's always a lot going on ... not really the best environment for mothers incubating their eggs in my opinion. I only enter my incubator once or twice a day tops and the temps stay extremely stable and consistent.

I also can't stand the idea of not cleaning a females cage for 60 days!! ... The still urinate while they are on the eggs and the ammonia smell can't be good for them ... trying to clean around a female that is sitting on eggs can cause stress and really not in her best interest. Every snake in my collection gets cleaned at least once a week .... period! ;)

I have NOTHING against maternal incubation at all ... if it works for you, AWESOME! ... it's just not for me. ;)

-adam

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Makes a lot of sense...from what you've said it seems like in captvity its just more practical to remove the female.....Thanks for all the quick responses!

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

Makes a lot of sense...from what you've said it seems like in captvity its just more practical to remove the female.....Thanks for all the quick responses!

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It is for me. Some of the small scale breeders like the simplicity of just leaving mom on the eggs and not having to worry about incubators and stuff ... just not my cup of tea, but I can appreciate their point of view.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Mixing vermiculite is sooo easy ... I don't see how it could be screwed up.

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Apparently you haven't met my friend Murphy. :)

Scaling something up does change the game plan!

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Apparently you haven't met my friend Murphy. :)

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You'd be amazed at how incredibly tolerable ball python eggs are. People really don't give the eggs ability to survive enough credit. I think the people that have had eggs go bad from incubating on vermiculite vs. no-sub probably would have had those eggs go bad no matter how they incubated them ... bad eggs are just a fact of life when breeding snakes ... people that don't know better look for things to "blame" and not mixing vermiculite correctly seems to be a popular one.

Your friend Murphy has some type of exception for no-sub? ... I don't think so ... like I said, if it's going to go bad or get screwed up, it doesn't matter which method you choose ... in the end, just go with what makes you feel more comfortable and you'll be fine. ;)

-adam

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

Scaling something up does change the game plan!

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Not really ... even when I was only doing 2 clutches a year I put the eggs on vermiculite ... I don't think scale has anything to do with it ... I just pointed out that the smaller breeders are the only people that I've ever heard of trying maternal incubation in ball pythons because there's no body working with these animals in numbers that's sold on the idea. The guys/gals with the huge collections (1000, 1500, 2000+ animals) that are making their living breeding snakes and have been doing so for 10+ years I would think know best ... or at least better than I. ;)

-adam

If the big breeders aren't doing maternal incubation, there is a good reason.

By the way, if you ever want to kill some time, go to Ralph Davis' website and spend hours being awed. I just spent an hour last night going through last years clutches and seeing his commentary on what hatched out. Brilliant stuff!! The Lav. Alb. Pied is SICK!!

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Your friend Murphy has some type of exception for no-sub? ... I don't think so ... like I said, if it's going to go bad or get screwed up, it doesn't matter which method you choose ... in the end, just go with what makes you feel more comfortable and you'll be fine. ;)

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LOL. Sorry for the obtuse reference. By Murphy, I meant Murphy's Law. It's nice to know that the eggs are more durable than I thought. Murphy be ******!

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Originally Posted by xdeus

LOL. Sorry for the obtuse reference. By Murphy, I meant Murphy's Law. It's nice to know that the eggs are more durable than I thought. Murphy be ******!

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I knew what you meant. ;)

I was just trying to point out that no-sub incubation is not immune from Murphys law ... there are lots of ways that eggs can go bad. ;)

-adam