Pied-$$??

At what price do you think Pied's will be at by this year end? I've seen some 05's as low as $3500 and as high as $8000 on KS, what is their market value?


I know it depends on % of white, but $3,500 seems too good to be true!

Is this about right?

I know a couple people that have purchased male low-white pieds in the $3500 range, so that price seems right. Like you said I think the % of white has alot to do with it.

If the 05's are going for as low as $3500-$4000, what will the price be for a nice 2006 around Sept/August? $3000-$4000?

Again, I know it depends on the % of white, but on average what will the 06's go for, guesstimate?

Gerry, you considering getting into pieds and buying hom. animals? I want to get into it but I will prob do it with a 100% het male and some poss girls. I love pieds but am willing to take my time and try to prove out some poss animals. I am more keen on spending a chunk of change on a spider and producing some beeeeees.

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Originally Posted by ssscales

If the 05's are going for as low as $3500-$4000, what will the price be for a nice 2006 around Sept/August? $3000-$4000?

Again, I know it depends on the % of white, but on average what will the 06's go for, guesstimate?

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Why does the price have to go down?

-adam

I want it to stay up where it is! Obviously everything drops eventually but as a new breeder, I want things to hold where they are (damn i'm selfish).

Hi Jaime, this year end I plan on adding 1-2 real nice top of the line Pastel males, 3-4 100% Het Albino females and possibly a Spider male or Pied depending on $$$. I was considering Pied's, but didn't think I would have the resources to add them this year due to their $$$. I'm just curious on the Pied prices since just a few months ago I wouldn't see them under $5000, now I'm seeing them for $3500. Same thing for Spiders, just a few months back $5000 seemed to be the benchmark. Now, I see them for $3000-$3500, which means $2800 when you get down to it. Is it desperation in some sellers?

Is there a chance we could see Pied's for $3000 and under this year?


I know I want to produce Pastels for Supers, regardless of price drop.
I know I want to produce Albinos, regardless of price drop.

I know I want Spiders for Bumblebees, regardless of price drop.

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Obviously everything drops eventually

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I never understood why some people do that. It's a small timers mentality ... I guess they figure that their sales and marketing skills $uck so I'll drop the price and sell it cheap.

I didn't drop prices on a single mutation this year, and I'm almost sold out.

I actually charged more for pastels, albinos and het albinos, and het hypos this year than I did last year.

If it doesn't sell as a hatchling at my set price, it will fly out of here as an adult at the same price. ;)

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Why does the price have to go down?

-adam

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I think people assume the price will go down because the number of animals being produced is going up. I guess...

But...Let's say 1000 people want to buy pieds each year. Last year, say only 500 were produced, so the price was high because demand far outweighs production. So, this year, maybe 600 are produced. Demand still far outweighs production so the chance of prices across the board going down are slim to none.

I suppose it's possible that because more "small-time" breeders are getting out there and trying to make names for themselves, you might be able to find a good deal on an individual pied, but that would be a lucky find, and not a reflection on the market as a whole.

That is my relatively un-educated take on the topic. :rolleyes:

Sounds like desperation/undercutting by some sellers. As with Pastels, some breeders still sell males at $1200 (and regularly sell them out) while others are undercutting everyone and selling at $500.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Why does the price have to go down?

-adam

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I would imagine with all the designer stuff Pied's could be added too, price would hold steady, at least. But that doesn't seem to be the case, at least based on KS.

That's why I'm asking the question, where do you see this going this year?

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I never understood why some people do that. It's a small timers mentality ... I guess they figure that their sales and marketing skills $uck so I'll drop the price and sell it cheap.

I didn't drop prices on a single mutation this year, and I'm almost sold out.

I actually charged more for pastels, albinos and het albinos, and het hypos this year than I did last year.

If it doesn't sell as a hatchling at my set price, it will fly out of here as an adult at the same price. ;)

-adam

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Its not my mentality and I don't necessarily agree with it, but it happens.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

If it doesn't sell as a hatchling at my set price, it will fly out of here as an adult at the same price. ;)

-adam

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Now how's that for perfect marketing??? I can hardly wait until I'm saying the same thing!! :sweeet:

That's the smart thing to do, price it and let it sit, enjoy it!

Really, how much is it costing you to house and feed that snake for 6-12mo? If it doesn't fetch $1000 this week, it will fetch $1000+ in 3-6-12 months when all it cost you was a few bucks to feed!

But most of the time I see ads starting at $1000 for example on Monday and by Friday..."Weekend special $850, shipped!". Two weeks later "48hr sale, $750 SHIPPED!!!".

those ads crack me up! i'd never buy from them. when purchasing an animal that expensive, i'd like it to have premium care and handling. if a person takes top care of an animal, they are not going to low ball it asap. i'm very cautious of deals that are"to good to be true". most times there is something up, especially when dealing with livestock.


vaughn

I wouldn't buy 95% of what's advertised on KS. Those ads are everywhere. Buy from established, quality breeders. It will mean spending more cash but its well worth it.

That's why when I saw those 1st Pied's for around $3500. I started thinking "too good too be true", but I've seen a few already at those prices. I start wondering, do you take advantage of this desperation? Then I think to myself, there is a reason that $5000 snake is being pushed out the pool at a loss. That's not to say there aren't great deals out there, but you usually get what you pay for.

I'd rather wait a bit more or pay a little more and get high end morphs from a solid breeder Vs saving a few bucks and buying from a seller who's willing to take a couple hundred dollar loss on his animal for reasons he only knows.

You rarely, if ever see Ralph Davis, Mike Wilbanks, Pete Khal or Bob Clark selling on KS. Occasionally I'll see NERD and VPI classifieds on there, but they set their prices and let it sit for weeks, if not months. I've seen boas from NERD being classified for 6-8 months at a set price. It gets removed for a few weeks and the next time you see it, it's been bumped up a couple hundred bucks!

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Originally Posted by kavmon

those ads crack me up! I'd never buy from them.

vaughn

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Those classifieds are funny!

Monday-Thursday $1200 + S&H for this beautiful snake.
Friday comes around... $750 shipped or show special $550 delivered to show".

Or

Those weekend sales, Christmas sale, New Years Eve Sale, Thanks Giving Sale, July 4th sale. You know to keep going when you see a price tag go from $2000 down to $800 in the same classified!! I keep expecting to see the Wal-Mart :) slashing prices in a KS ad!

Maybe in my newbieness I over-simplify this stuff but it makes no sense to me to wildly undercut the market. Isn't this the same market you want to be selling your next years clutches in? If you are thinking long term why would you want to destablize or drive down prices just to make a fast buck? Actually I guess I just answered my own question, those folks aren't thinking long term are they?

What does it hurt a breeder to hold on to quality unsold snakes? I figure if I had a nice albino male that didn't sell (scuse me whilst I have a moment to drool over the idea of having my own albino sold or unsold lol)...anyways...why would I sell him cheap-o? I figure every day that snake grows, every rat he eats is one day closer to his breeding age and I've just saved my potential client some time haven't I? Seems to me that snakes don't devalue over time, their value grows so why in the world mess with a reasonably stable market. Well unless you like crying in your beer (and all over the internet) about the "unstable ball python" market that funny enough you helped create.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Maybe in my newbieness I over-simplify this stuff but it makes no sense to me to wildly undercut the market. Isn't this the same market you want to be selling your next years clutches in? If you are thinking long term why would you want to destablize or drive down prices just to make a fast buck? Actually I guess I just answered my own question, those folks aren't thinking long term are they?

What does it hurt a breeder to hold on to quality unsold snakes? I figure if I had a nice albino male that didn't sell (scuse me whilst I have a moment to drool over the idea of having my own albino sold or unsold lol)...anyways...why would I sell him cheap-o? I figure every day that snake grows, every rat he eats is one day closer to his breeding age and I've just saved my potential client some time haven't I? Seems to me that snakes don't devalue over time, their value grows so why in the world mess with a reasonably stable market. Well unless you like crying in your beer (and all over the internet) about the "unstable ball python" market that funny enough you helped create.

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I totally agree with you there. I think the majority of people who are selling the animals far under the "market" price are just in the business to make a quick buck (just my opinion). Ive been working all month on a business plan, taking into acount what happens if the snakes dont sell right away, just more snakes to breed:P. Why would someone want to sell something for a price when they know that they can get more out off it? I just think these people are living in the "moment" when it comes to selling snakes. Thinking when they mark it that low that it will sell right away. Just my :twocents:

One thing about the pied is that they are extremely variable in appearance.


So a collector who is into pieds is going to likely want a little of each (high-white, med-white, low-white).

The other thing about price to consider is that people will either charge what the market demands or what they are comfortable with in terms of profit. If you want to charge $1,000 less than the "going-rate" - that's your perogative as the seller. There will always be a lower price, given the demand though - I'd say this is a seller's market.

Going the possible Het/Het route is definately taking the conservative route - it really comes down to how quickly you want to produce visible morphs.

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Originally Posted by ssscales

Same thing for Spiders, just a few months back $5000 seemed to be the benchmark. Now, I see them for $3000-$3500, which means $2800 when you get down to it. Is it desperation in some sellers?

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Sorry, but I didn't really understand this... What does "$2800 when you get down to it" mean? Does that mean profits - costs = $2800? I just didn't really get it....

All fun a side, I don't think I got an answer to the price tag or expected price tag of Pied's this year end? I know there is nothing set in stone, but what is the expected going rate for a nice 06 Piebald?

my guess for a "nice" pied from a good breeder 5-6k?



vaughn

I think what some of you are forgetting is that not everyone who sells is a big breeder. If Adam is selling a pastel for $1200, and I want to sell one just like his, I cant list it at $1200 or people will buy his instead of mine, because of his reputation, and it is well deserved.

The problem is, I have 3 snakes, and still need to sell mine. So instead i sell mine for $1000. I dont have the rep, I dont have the fancy boxes, but I'm still an honest guy, so Im hoping to at least get near market price.

Would you consider that undercutting? Or trying to make a quick buck? I wouldnt.

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Originally Posted by MARCUS ANTONIUS

Sorry, but I didn't really understand this... What does "$2800 when you get down to it" mean? Does that mean profits - costs = $2800? I just didn't really get it....

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What I meant was, usually when a seller is showing desperation out the gate by advertising a $4000-$5000 snake for example (assuming it's not a scam) for $3000 or offering some weekend sale after 3 days. Once you get that seller on the phone and offer $2800 via paypal to their account before the call is over, you'll probably get it for $2800.

You'd be surprised what the words "PayPal" can do to some sellers.
It's like the guy who will take $500 cash Vs a check for $600.

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Originally Posted by ssscales

usually when a seller is showing desperation out the gate by advertising a $4000-$5000 snake for example (assuming it's not a scam) for $3000 or offering some weekend sale after 3 days.

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You've made a great point.

If a seller has to drop prices and under cut the market out of desperation, what do you think that seller is going to do if something happens during shipping and the snake shows up dead? How about if your "cheap" investment dies 3 days after you get it, or shows up with RI?

Do you think it will be easy to get a refund? Or do you think that the seller is going to b!tch and moan and avoid your calls because he "needs" that money?

Also, how much time do you think that seller is going to spend with you if you have problems months or years later getting that animal to breed? Do you think that the guy/gal is going to spend hours on the phone with you going over "secrets" for getting males/females "in the mood" and doing their thing?

A deal is only a deal if EVERYTHING goes perfectly. For me, I'd rather pay a little bit more and do business with someone that is going to stand behind their animal. ;)

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Do you think that the guy/gal is going to spend hours on the phone with you going over "secrets" for getting males/females "in the mood" and doing their thing?

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There are secrets?! :ohmygod: Damn, I have to get you on the horn! :D

I think when it comes down to it there are 4 types of people that do this.

1. the scammer
2. the questionable breeder trying to get rid of the animal
3. the person that is having financial problems
4. the small time breeder trying to get his name out there

It is our job as consumers to find out where they fall into these categories and decide if the gain outweighs the risk with each. I personally would be more comfortable making the purchase if they fell into category 4.

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Originally Posted by Wild Bill

I think when it comes down to it there are 4 types of people that do this.

1. the scammer
2. the questionable breeder trying to get rid of the animal
3. the person that is having financial problems
4. the small time breeder trying to get his name out there

It is our job as consumers to find out where they fall into these categories and decide if the gain outweighs the risk with each. I personally would be more comfortable making the purchase if they fell into category 4.

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The problem is how do you differentiate? I don't think the answer to getting your name out there is undercutting the competition. Become active on the forums, answer questions for people and show through your actions that you are a quality person and worth dealing with.

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

I think what some of you are forgetting is that not everyone who sells is a big breeder. If Adam is selling a pastel for $1200, and I want to sell one just like his, I cant list it at $1200 or people will buy his instead of mine, because of his reputation, and it is well deserved.

The problem is, I have 3 snakes, and still need to sell mine. So instead i sell mine for $1000. I dont have the rep, I dont have the fancy boxes, but I'm still an honest guy, so Im hoping to at least get near market price.

Would you consider that undercutting? Or trying to make a quick buck? I wouldnt.

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I absolutely would.

I am by no means a big breeder, but I price my animals the same as all of the "big guys" because that is what they are worth. I didn’t have a “rep” on day one, and I didn’t drop my prices on anything to “make a sale” … instead, I worked my A$$ off!! … I MARKETED myself and my business, I got out onto message boards and gave solid advice based on my experience, I spent hundreds of hours on the phone helping people out, I went to shows and introduced myself to all of the big breeders, I read literally a hundred books on sales and marketing techniques, I stayed up some nights until 3 and 4 in the morning working on my website … I busted my hump to build my company into what it is … I the 3 years since I started “8 Ball Pythons” I’ve come a long way, and I still have a long way to go, but I got here by putting in the time and the work, not by undervaluing these animals to make a sale.

If a seller has to cut prices to make a sale, they are doing it wrong. When two gas stations are across the street from each other, do you see one dropping their prices daily in order to get more customers than the other? … Nope, the prices are basically the same, but they compete by offering more to the customers that do come in (car washes, convenience items, etc). That’s how businesses are run. If in the real business world, companies kept dumping prices in order to move product, the economy would shut down … cars would be $50.00, airline tickets would be a nickel! Only in the snake world do people have this “I’ll keep lowering the price until it sells” mentality and it’s ridiculous.

The ball python market does not have to be a fad, or a flash in the pan. This could really be a long term sustainable market that makes EVERYONE involved in it money for the next 20, 25, 30 years. The people that are coming out each year dropping prices for no other reason than another breeding season has passed or because they “need” to make a sale are just shortening the life of this market for everyone. They are turning what could be a long term sustainable income for everyone into a few years of making a quick buck. It just doesn’t make sense to me and what baffles me even more is that more people don’t get pi$$ed over it.

If you are producing these animals and you have to lower your prices in order to compete, you are doing something wrong. To me, that’s a garage sale or flea market mentality and not how professional business owners get it done. I’d have to ask, why do you “have to” make a sale in the first place? Everything sells in time, you just have to be patient. Maybe it’s because you’ve over extended yourself getting into ball pythons and the only way to stay above water is to dump on the market that you are so desperately trying to get into? Maybe instead of betting the farm on ball pythons you should have gotten in more slowly and learned the ropes, established yourself in the market place, and then spent the big bucks?

Lastly, and the thing that I am most passionate about when it comes to pricing on ball python morphs is customers. When any breeder is selling high dollar ball pythons (from pastels to lessers to lavenders), their customers are “investing” their hard earned money with that breeder. Those customers are investing that money with the same hopes that the breeder had when getting into ball pythons … to potentially make a little bit of money doing something that they love. When a breeder is selling those animals to an customer/investor and undercutting the market, they are really ripping that customer/investor off. They are saying “look, I don’t care if you make money or not when your animal is ready to breed because I need this sale” …. Because the reality is, if the breeder is pushing the market price down because they “need the money” or because they “can’t compete” with other breeders, they are hurting the long term value of that morph. When that customer/investor finally gets that animal up to breeding size and produces their own offspring, the babies will be worth less because the breeder that they purchased from was a part of the tidal wave of “desperation” that pushed market prices down faster than they needed to go down. And then when the customer is selling babies and competing against the breeder that they bought from, chances are, that breeder will undercut their own customers in order to make a sale.

This is CHESS, not CHECKERS! … Think long term … ask yourself, would you rather make a little money over a couple of years or a lot of money over a couple of decades! … Don’t put yourself in a position that you “need” to sell anything! … Instead of investing every last dime you have each year on morphs, invest some on morphs and put some in the bank to cover your feeder bills, taxes, financing, etc for the year … That is how REAL BUSINESSES work! … Be a real business and help EVERYONE make money!

SnakeySnakeSnake, other than answering the question that you posed, this post wasn’t directed at you, so please don’t take it that way. I am just expressing my views on the market in general and how some people behave in ways that hurts us all. Take your time and understand the market and you’ll do fine with your endeavors.

-adam

Couple more thoughts here and btw this is a fascintating thread folks...I'm loving it!

What good does it do a breeder to publically devalue his snake like this. One day it's "oh this is a killer pastel it's easily worth $1,200!!"...next day..."well it's a pretty decent pastel...how about $800???"....finally..."anybody want this pastel by Friday for $500.00!" What does that tell me as a consumer/potential buyer about this breeder and this snake that I'm investing our hard earned cash in? Like Adam said, I will have to look at whether I feel confident this person will be there for me and sorry folks but desperation scares the willies out of me. I like a bargain as much as the next person but I'd rather work with a reputable breeder whose in it for the long term and if it costs a few bucks more, so be it. Quite honestly it seems most of the decent breeders are quite happy to work with newcomers like Mike and I to help us get the snake that we can afford and that will work best with our future breeding dreams. They may even give us a deal as a repeat customer or part of a group of snakes purchased, but that's part of the good relationship with your breeder and is done in a businesslike, private manner.

Example....we badly wanted a male pastel from 8Ball last summer. Due to issues with Mike's health at the time and budget constraints we ended up not being able to swing it. Because Adam works with us and is a decent person whose passion for his snakes is equal to his business savy, he suggested other alternatives, worked with us and eventually we happily purchased our 100% het albino male from him. Now we could have raced out and bought the first bargain basement male pastel we could find off KS, or we could have over-extended ourselves on a pastel from 8Ball if Adam was the type to push and oversell his snakes without regard for his customer. Instead we talked with Adam, taking into consideration his advice, our goals and our budget. You can be quite sure we'll be a repeat customer. We like the feeling that our not very expensive het transaction was treated with as much respect, professionalism and followup as any $25,000 Lesser. Somehow I just don't see that happening with a buy it now!....quick!...it's on sale!!!!...sorta deal.

The fact is the old adage about getting what you pay for is as true in this ball python world as it is anywhere else, perhaps even more so. Quite honestly we feel that we got more than we paid for! LOL

Oh quick thought on us small time home breeder people. I bet Mike and I will be doing way more trading with other folks at the same stage as we are over the next few years than we will be doing outright sales to the general public. We might do our little private sales/deals between ourselves to help each other. This is about community and growth and supporting our future market. We aren't in this for the quick buck either.

That's great advice, Adam. The thing that you haven't touched on, though, is that sooner or later you will have to lower prices. If I tried to sell a Mojave a couple years ago for $15K and it didn't sell, I doubt I could sell it today for the same amount even if it is grown. The big breeders adjust their prices every year, and the little guys have to fall in line with that no matter how much they want to keep their prices up. Plus with more and more little guys breeding, they are putting more lower priced snakes on the market.

It is a game of chess, but you can only sacrifice so many pieces before losing position. Service counts for a lot, but prices factor in as well. Most consumers will look at the entire package and not just service or prices.

Isn't selling a particular product below market price inorder to get rid of competion a violation of trade regulation law in most states? Any one Law savy wanna correct me if I'm wrong?

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Originally Posted by xdeus

If I tried to sell a Mojave a couple years ago for $15K and it didn't sell, I doubt I could sell it today for the same amount even if it is grown.

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Why weren't you able to sell it in it's second winter at 700 grams for 15K? I almost bought a breedable male mojave last summer for 13K ... nice one too ... so depending on your time frame it would have been easily doable.

But you're right, it would probably be hard to get 15K for it today, but if it was a male and bred for you this season, even 3 clutches of 18 eggs and 9 mojaves would be worth $31,500.00 (I have no idea what mojaves are going for so I'm guessing) ... the $31,500.00 (even if you had to pay $1000 a piece for 3 normal girls to breed him to in the fall) is an even better return than that 15K ... and the market for mojaves is much larger now than it was a couple of years ago.

If that animal was a female and you bred it back to your original mojave, then you potentially have a white snake ... worth a few bucks more than 15K.

The reality is that if you produced a mojave a couple of years ago and it was priced at 15K and didn't sell as a hatchling, it would have sold as a breedable male in it's second winter at around that price. There'd be no need to dump on the prices each and every week to sell it as a hatchling because adults always sell and they always sell for more.

-adam

Really interesting posts, guys. This is great reading...=)

My two cents is you get what you pay for - a quality product from a reputable seller who's gonna be there for you is well worth it, whether it be ball pythons, computer parts or even kitty litter (I'm having kitty litter issues, but that's another story =P).

A cheap deal is a gamble - it may work, but if you loose, then you have no right to complain.

Great thread and points from all participants.

I am also thinking about the breeders who don't have the room to house the results of what they thought would be "a great dinking project". Here they are trying to move below market value these BP's with very little attention, much less care because of lack of planning and they are running a business right???? KS ad: "Need to sell, moving onto other interest". Oh yeah, I'm really convinced I need to invest here!!

As mentioned previously (in a nut shell), You get out of it what you put into it. "Plan, Prepare and Pace yourself". I won't sigh or worry too much about the "delta" between what I paid for a BP in year 1 vs. the current price in year 2 of business. I care about the quality, integrity and dedication a business owner has towards his/her product and the service delivered to the customers. Best of luck to all with what ever your endevour may be.:)

My :twocents:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

You've made a great point.

If a seller has to drop prices and under cut the market out of desperation, what do you think that seller is going to do if something happens during shipping and the snake shows up dead? How about if your "cheap" investment dies 3 days after you get it, or shows up with RI?

Do you think it will be easy to get a refund? Or do you think that the seller is going to b!tch and moan and avoid your calls because he "needs" that money?

-adam

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IMO, this is where dealing with someone honest/reputable is worth every penny you spend! This could be a small or big breeder! I don't judge a breeder based on how many snakes he/she has or how much they sold last year. There are a lot of part time/small time breeders out there that care a lot about their snakes and take great pride in them as well as stand 100% behind what they do.

If someone is selling that $5000 snake for $3000 because he needs $$$. My concerns would be like Adam mentioned "what happens if something goes wrong in shipping, it arrives sick, doesn't eat or dies a week later?". Will he refund the $3000, will he pay the vet bills, will he take it back? What are your chances of getting the seller to support you financially, when he needed the cash and probably spent it the day he got it?

I'm not much on expecting any special tips or tricks, but I would expect the seller to stand behind their animal, product, and guarantee 100%!

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Originally Posted by iceman25

Isn't selling a particular product below market price inorder to get rid of competion a violation of trade regulation law in most states? Any one Law savy wanna correct me if I'm wrong?

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You're assuming the guy doing the undercutting gives a hoot. Odds are they aren't a registered business, don't have proper permits/tax id etc.. If you can't establish they are a legitimate business it would be tough to prove they are undercutting with the intent of "getting rid of the competition" when they aren't oficially in competition with anyone.....

I've read all the arguments, and the problem is the market breaks down... There is no reason why you should be able to buy a snake at $10k, and in one year have bred it to 10 normal females (lets say 500 each), and end up with 25 babies also worth 10k...

Thats $250k worth of snakes for $15k of investment and a year of work....

There is no way that is sustainable without a growth of 15-20 fold each year... Breeders are saying that such and such a snake is worth $10k, but then someone turns around and sells it for $5k, and doesnt take a loss, but probably makes $4k easily. Sure it isn't 9k, but they set their price in order to get a sale.



Does anyone here really think that someone buying a $10k snake and 10 females of breeding size should be able to make a few hundred thousand in one year of work? It just doesnt make sense.....

Pricing lower than the "bigger" names, is not an example of trying to make a quick buck. It is called recognizing the market, recognizing your position, and adjusting your prices to reflect the value that consumers are willing to place on your snake compared to that of a larger breeder's snake.

It is obvious there is a lot of flex-room in the market if people are able to sell at such low prices.... Heck, if I bought 5 breedable male pastels for $5k total, 100 normal females of breeding size for $40k total, and then had good luck at breeding and hatching, I could end up with 100 clutches of 6, avg 3 pastels per clutch, looking at 300 pastels, half female half male.

150 males at 200 each
150 females at 500 each

30k and 75k... so by cutting prices to the bone, I could be up 60k (minus the cost of breeding, food, housing). And that is just in the first year... the second year that would all be profit, and I could cut my prices further.....

This shows you were the BP market could go.... if high dollar investors got into it and were just focused on making a quick dollar.... I really hope that doesnt happen, because then it will take the fun and ability for everyone else away, as what was once considered a good sized breeder became small in comparison.

So anyway, Im probably off on 99% of what I said, I would listen to ANYONE but me about this, as I have no real applied knowledge on the BP market, and on what some people can or will do.

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Originally Posted by ssscales

IMO, this is where dealing with someone honest/reputable is worth every penny you spend! This could be a small or big breeder! I don't judge a breeder based on how many snakes he/she has or how much they sold last year. There are a lot of part time/small time breeders out there that care a lot about their snakes and take great pride in them as well as stand 100% behind what they do.

If someone is selling that $5000 snake for $3000 because he needs $$$. My concerns would be like Adam mentioned "what happens if something goes wrong in shipping, it arrives sick, doesn't eat or dies a week later?". Will he refund the $3000, will he pay the vet bills, will he take it back? What are your chances of getting the seller to support you financially, when he needed the cash and probably spent it the day he got it?

I'm not much on expecting any special tips or tricks, but I would expect the seller to stand behind their animal, product, and guarantee 100%!

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Exactly the point i mentioned earlier... if you pay $5k for a snake from someone who has been around longer, or $2500 from someone who hasnt, you have a much better chance of getting everything taken care of by the $5k larger seller, as they make an additional $2500 each sale, so if something goes wrong 1/10 times, they are still further ahead...

That is where it becomes the numbers game... are you willing to pay nearly twice as much to get insurance? Or would you rather do your own research on a person, pay half as much, and take the 10, 20 , 30% chance that if something happens that they wont take care of you. (another reason to have it shipped delta in my opinion).


Sorry for playing the devils advocate in this thread :) Just like thinking about it from both sides.


edit: heading to work.

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

Thats $250k worth of snakes for $15k of investment and a year of work....

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I don't get what your problem with that is? I did something very similar last year with lessers. The market is strong like that.

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

Sure it isn't 9k, but they set their price in order to get a sale.

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A good business person does not leave money on the table. Call an exec at GM and ask them to price their Chevy Trailblazers 50% below Fords Explorer "just to make their sale" ... They'll laugh their a$$es off at you. A good business person knows the market and prices their product at what it is worth in the marketplace ... not at what they can "cash out" at. The "cash out" mentality is what I have the problem with.

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

but in this one case, he argues that everyone should keep their prices high,

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If that's what you think I was saying, you completely missed my point.

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

and not adapt to what people in the market are paying.

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"Adapt to what people are paying"??? ... LOL ... WTF is that? People pay what a product is priced at. Lowering prices below what everyone else is selling products for just to make a sale is just lazyness. Put in the work, market yourself, and charge what your animal is worth ... If RDR, VPI, NERD can get 5K for an animal there is no reason why you can't ... you just have to do the work.

In the real world, business look at their overhead, taxes, profit margins, and growth and price their products according to the goals of their business plans … they don’t set a price just because that’s the only amount of money they can get. If that’s how you’re basing your business plan, you’re going to make it about 2 years before you get into serious trouble.

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

That keeps the price artificially high by having everyone keep their prices up, and is an example of price fixing.

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That is not price fixing. I think you need to educate yourself a little better before you start throwing terms like that around.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_fixing

Encouraging people to sell their products in order to recoup the maximum return on their investment and create a long term sustainable market is not price fixing ... it's called good business and wise investing.

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

Does anyone here really think that someone buying a $10k snake and 10 females of breeding size should be able to make a few hundred thousand in one year of work?

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Why shouldn't they be able to? That's called a free market economy. People flip homes and make $100,000 in 2 months, why should snakes be any different? It's that kind of defeatist attitude that hurts the market.

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

Pricing lower than the "bigger" names, is not an example of trying to make a quick buck. It is called recognizing the market, recognizing your position, and adjusting your prices to reflect the value that consumers are willing to place on your snake compared to that of a larger breeder's snake.

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No sir. It's called being lazy, doubting your ability to sell animals, and not managing your business properly by not having the capital to be able to sit on animals while they appreciate in value.

You’re also hurting your customers. Dropping your prices lower than everyone else in order to make a sale makes the market prices come down faster than they naturally would. That results in lower prices for your customers when they start selling offspring and less money in their pockets. Not the type of operation that I'd be interested in supporting.

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

It is obvious there is a lot of flex-room in the market if people are able to sell at such low prices.... Heck, if I bought 5 breedable male pastels for $5k total, 100 normal females of breeding size for $40k total, and then had good luck at breeding and hatching, I could end up with 100 clutches of 6, avg 3 pastels per clutch, looking at 300 pastels, half female half male.

150 males at 200 each
150 females at 500 each

30k and 75k... so by cutting prices to the bone, I could be up 60k (minus the cost of breeding, food, housing). And that is just in the first year... the second year that would all be profit, and I could cut my prices further.....

This shows you were the BP market could go.... if high dollar investors got into it and were just focused on making a quick dollar.... I really hope that doesnt happen, because then it will take the fun and ability for everyone else away, as what was once considered a good sized breeder became small in comparison.

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But you conveniently leave out taxes and payroll. Do you even know how much the government will let you depreciate in your first year? You're going to take a big tax hit on all of those sales and then you'll wish you had charged more. You'll also be hard pressed to find a reliable source of feeders for the number of animals so you'll have to do your own which adds to the already high labor costs of caring for a collection that large.

You've got a lot to learn about running a business, sales, marketing, and large collection management ... I wish you all the luck in the world.

-adam

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

(another reason to have it shipped delta in my opinion)

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LOL ... Have you ever actually tried to get a nickle out of Delta on an insurance claim? ... LOL

Just because they offer insurance, doesn't mean you're going to get money back for anything.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

You've got a lot to learn about running a business, sales, marketing, and large collection management ... I wish you all the luck in the world.

-adam

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I couldn't agree with your more! That's why I get involved in discussions like this.


As far as the whole mention of price fixing, I sent you a PM explaining that I didnt say that in the correct way, and you are right....


I think the main thing you aren't addressing is this... If Nerd and RDR and 10 other well knowns are selling a pastel for $1200, and between them they have 1,000 for sale.... it will be very hard for new breeders to sell their snakes at the same price.... Basically those larger breeders would have to sell out of their snakes before smaller breeders had a chance at the same price...

That being said, you list your snakes at a given price, but do you ever sell for less than you list? To work with someone, to help someone out, etc? I don't think you would lower your price just to make a quick buck, but Im sure you would lower it under other circumstances? (someone buys multiples, etc)

I just think it is wrong to use a blanket statement saying that everyone who sells under market price, is trying to make a quick buck, is lazy, etc (if I misread this please let me know).

Ah well, funn stuff to talk about :)

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

LOL ... Have you ever actually tried to get a nickle out of Delta on an insurance claim? ... LOL

Just because they offer insurance, doesn't mean you're going to get money back for anything.

-adam

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Nope, not at all. But I've heard a lot of good things about them shipping quicker , not losing packages, at least offering some kind of insurance, etc. and other stories that would make me more likely to ship through delta than through my local fed-ex guy who likes to play basketball with my packages :)

I don't believe that just because NERD has say 1000 Pastels at $1200 that a smaller breeder can't sell a Pastel for the same $1200. If I saw a Pastel on Joe Compel's website (or even one of the many awesome folks that I have met on this site who are trying to build their own business) and it caught my eye, I wouldn't hesitate for a second to buy from them. I believe in supporting quality people with my business.

I do think the system is flawed in thinking everyone must and should price themselves equal.

Example:
Breeder "A" has this huge 5,000sqft warehouse to pay for and maintain, 10 employees, insurance, overhead costs, operating cost, travel budgets for shows as well as Uncle Sam to account for!! Not too mention a house, wife and two kids to support and plan to pay for college.

Breeder "B", we'll call him "Jimmy".
Just turned 18yrs old, not a care in the world, living at home with his parents. No responsibility except his part time job at PetCo to pay for the insurance and gas on his Mustang daddy helped him buy last year. Jimmy goes ahead and buys a group of 4-5 100% Het females and 1-2 Albinos from breeder "A" for $7500 at market value.

Why should we expect Jimmy with his breeding group of Albinos that he bought from breeder "A" price those same snakes at the same price tag as breeder "A"?

All Jimmy has to worry about is the RodentPro bill every two months for under $100 and his initial ROI. He makes his ROI with his 2nd clutch even at 1/2 price of breeder "A". Jimmy won't pay taxes on his sales either! Jimmy can sell that same Albino for 1/2 the price of breeder "A" and probably clear more on the same sale! Jimmy just made about the same if not more $$$ selling those snakes at 1/2 the market value than he would make all year at his part time as PetCo.

Jimmy doesn't really see this as losing $1000 per snake, he sees it as making $1000 per snake!

Any thoughts?

Another note:

Larger breeders have advertising costs, employee costs, warehouse costs, business licenses, lawyer fees, etc that smaller breeders don't have.

It might cost a large breeder more per snake due to all of the above... so a small breeder might make 5k on a snake selling it at 6k, while a big breeder selling a snake at 6k would only make 3.5k

I still don't see why a small breeder should have to sell at the same prices as a larger breeder, they are completely different entities, and just because a smaller breeder sells for less doesn't mean they are lazy or greedy.

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Originally Posted by jglass38

I don't believe that just because NERD has say 1000 Pastels at $1200 that a smaller breeder can't sell a Pastel for the same $1200. If I saw a Pastel on Joe Compel's website (or even one of the many awesome folks that I have met on this site who are trying to build their own business) and it caught my eye, I wouldn't hesitate for a second to buy from them. I believe in supporting quality people with my business.

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I am talking about the general people buying snakes, of course if you know someone personally or have had many contacts with them it would give the smaller breeder a chance.

If someone looked me up and saw no real feedback from me, didnt know me, and called me up, and decided they liked me.... there is little chance they would stil pay the exact same as they would to nerd... more likely they would try to haggle me down knowing that I would have a lot of trouble selling at the same price as them.

good discussion! a good point that was made was act like a business. this is so true, not that you have to run ads and have fancy websites(some of the biggest breeders don't advertise). but marketing yourself and making contacts is important to do. online forums,reptile shows are a great way to meet other breeders and make contacts. i'm a little old school on this one, but i think word of mouth and your actions speak volumes. how we handle problems is also a good test. a good transaction is pretty cut and dry, but when something goes wrong (shipping,feeding,death,after sale care,etc) happens this is when you see what someone is made of and it doesn't matter if you're RDR or V2R! lol


vaughn