Maybe it's just me...

Okay, so as most of you know, I bought a pastel (YAY!).
The breeder is in MD, (i live in CT) and he is shipping delta dash.

I told him I could pick it up and Saturday, and he said he didn't ship saturday. I asked why, out of pure curiosity, and he told me that there were skeleton crews and if he got on the wrong flight he would sit in atlanta till monday (atlanta??).
At the end of the note, He said that he doesn't compromise the saftey of his animals...
Okay, so im thinking "great! this is a real standup breeder" And I was happy with the explaination. (i really just didn't know) Then, the last line said..

I'll ship him to you UPS next week if you have concerns...

UPS????? Someone who doesn't except live animals?? Someone who wouldn't know to keep it warmer, or to keep it right-side up for that matter?

Is it normal for breeders to ship UPS?? Personally, I found the whole letter controdicting. But I have heard nothing but good things about these guys, so i was taken by complete suprise by it.
*shrug* maybe it is just me....?

PS- sorry for my ranting, please forgive me

Well siince UPS does not accept snakes, its not only against UPSs rules but unsafe. I know there are a bunch of breeders out there that ship UPS though. Who is the breeder (its ok if you dont want to say). Also, why not wait and have him ship Delta on Monday?

I'd straight up ask him about it.


As for shipping on the weekends, I understand where he's coming from with that. I refuse to have shipped or to ship anything after Wednesday for fear that it will get stuck somewhere and not make it to it's destination until the next week (happened with one of my BPs).

Atlanta is a major hub for DHL and also one of the busiest. Stuff is constantly getting lost of misplaced or delayed out of there.

Guys, I believe UPS does accept live non venomous snakes as long as you are certified through them to ship live harmless snakes.

Same goes for FedEx, it's against their policy to ship snakes, unless you are certified with them to ship live harmless snakes. It is flat out illegal to ship them via USPS.

There is nothing wrong with shipping UPS or FedEx as long as you are certified to ship live reptiles with them, ship it Priority next day air and you package the snake properly and accordingly with the temps and weather in both shipping and receiving areas. I suggest if and when you do ship or expect a package via UPS or FedEx that you get a tracking # and follow the package from A to Z.

Sounds like the breeder/seller was just giving you options by offering UPS as an alternative.

I totally understood where he was coming from about shipping on the weekends, and i had no problem with that.
I told him Ide rather pick it up at the airport on wed then have him ship ups. I thought that ups does NOT ship live reptiles at ALL.
if they DO, ill feel like an idiot.

As for weekend shipments, that's standard or should be for most breeders/sellers.


I too try not to ship after Wednesday for that same reason. Package gets lost Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday and you have that extra day to work it out and have it delivered before the weekend. If you ship Thursday and it gets lost or shipped elsewhere, that snake could spend 3-4 days in that box before it is recovered and delivered!

It's not worth the risk on either end of the transaction and especially for the snake!

I just looked on the UPS website, and snakes (ALL) are prohibited. They do accept lizards, fish, Amphibians, insects, etc. LOL, under prohibited, it says they don't accept obnoxious insents. Aren't they all obnoxious??

UPS does prohibit all snakes...

You'll find the same thing on the FedEx website. There are many breeders/sellers certified by UPS to ship live harmless reptiles. It's not something UPS or FedEx publish, but I'm 99% sure they do have a procedure.

I'm 100% sure about FedEx as I am certified and as for UPS I'm 99% sure they also have a procedure to become certified. Hopefully someone that is certified through UPS will chime in and confirm this.

FedEx | Terms and Conditions | FedEx Express U.S.
If approved by FedEx, we may accept non-venomous reptiles, amphibians, live/tropical fish and beneficial insects on an exception basis under the following conditions:

1. Shipments must be from a business to a business (from a breeder to a pet store, for example).
2. The shipper must have its packaging tested and pre-approved by FedEx Packaging Design and Development for the type of animal being shipped. Call 1.800.633.7019 for assistance. It is the responsibility of the shipper to adequately package shipments for all temperature extremes and handling conditions.

UPS: Shipping Live Animals
UPS provides service on a limited basis for packages containing some types of live animals.
Accepted Live Animals

This is a comprehensive list of live animals accepted for transportation. Shippers are prohibited from shipping any animal not listed here, and all other live animals will not be accepted for transportation. The following live animals are accepted for transportation unless poisonous, venomous, and/or a Threatened or Endangered Species.

• Amphibians (All): Examples: frogs, salamanders, toads
• Crustaceans (All): Examples: crabs, crawfish, lobsters, shrimp
• Fish (All)
• Insects (Limited to beneficial insects only): Examples: bees, butterflies, crickets, lady bugs
• Mollusks (All): Examples: clams, mussels, snails
• Reptiles (Limited to the following):
  - Lizards: Examples: chameleons, geckos, iguanas, monitors, flying dragons
  - Turtles: freshwater turtles (except: snapping turtles), land tortoises, sea turtles
• Worms (All)

Prohibited Live Animals

Live Animals that are prohibited from being shipped and are not accepted for transportation include, but are not limited to:

• Any poisonous, venomous or threatening animal
• Any Threatened or Endangered species
• Arachnids (All): Examples: mites, scorpions, spiders, ticks
• Birds (All)
• Crocodiles (All): Examples: alligators, caimans, gavials
• Mammals (All)
• Obnoxious Insects: Examples: flies, locusts, mosquitoes, roaches, termites, weevils
• Snakes (All): venomous and non-venomous

Here is FedEx policy on live animals:

http://www.fedex.com/us/government/i...ml#liveanimals


Live Animals

FedEx does not accept live animal shipments as part of its regularly scheduled service. Live animals will be accepted when the shipment is coordinated and approved by the FedEx Live Animal Desk. Acceptable shipments include, but are not limited to, zoo animals (to and from zoo locations only) and horses (from gateway to gateway locations only). Household pets, such as domestic cats and dogs, and live fish are not accepted. For more information, contact the FedEx Live Animal Desk at 1.800.405.9052.

I'm almost 99% sure UPS also allows shipments of live harmless reptiles, but you have to work it out with them. Sort of like a certification process, but I can't speak on it with certainty as I am only certified through FedEx.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by adizziedoll

FedEx | Terms and Conditions | FedEx Express U.S.
If approved by FedEx, we may accept non-venomous reptiles, amphibians, live/tropical fish and beneficial insects on an exception basis under the following conditions:

1. Shipments must be from a business to a business (from a breeder to a pet store, for example).
2. The shipper must have its packaging tested and pre-approved by FedEx Packaging Design and Development for the type of animal being shipped. Call 1.800.633.7019 for assistance. It is the responsibility of the shipper to adequately package shipments for all temperature extremes and handling conditions.

UPS: Shipping Live Animals
UPS provides service on a limited basis for packages containing some types of live animals.
Accepted Live Animals

This is a comprehensive list of live animals accepted for transportation. Shippers are prohibited from shipping any animal not listed here, and all other live animals will not be accepted for transportation. The following live animals are accepted for transportation unless poisonous, venomous, and/or a Threatened or Endangered Species.

• Amphibians (All): Examples: frogs, salamanders, toads
• Crustaceans (All): Examples: crabs, crawfish, lobsters, shrimp
• Fish (All)
• Insects (Limited to beneficial insects only): Examples: bees, butterflies, crickets, lady bugs
• Mollusks (All): Examples: clams, mussels, snails
• Reptiles (Limited to the following):
  - Lizards: Examples: chameleons, geckos, iguanas, monitors, flying dragons
  - Turtles: freshwater turtles (except: snapping turtles), land tortoises, sea turtles
• Worms (All)

Prohibited Live Animals

Live Animals that are prohibited from being shipped and are not accepted for transportation include, but are not limited to:

• Any poisonous, venomous or threatening animal
• Any Threatened or Endangered species
• Arachnids (All): Examples: mites, scorpions, spiders, ticks
• Birds (All)
• Crocodiles (All): Examples: alligators, caimans, gavials
• Mammals (All)
• Obnoxious Insects: Examples: flies, locusts, mosquitoes, roaches, termites, weevils
• Snakes (All): venomous and non-venomous

---

I may be mistaken, but I could swear I've seen breeders/shippers claim they were certified by UPS to ship harmless snakes. Maybe we could ask one of the pet shops or big breeders that ship through UPS?

I have read numerous times that UPS prohibits all snake shipments, and their 'certification' does nothing to change that. Fedex, or an airline.. that's it.

They are definitely not allowed. What big breeders are shipping UPS?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jglass38

They are definitely not allowed. What big breeders are shipping UPS?

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A lot.

-adam

Really? Whats your take on that?

if this is the one from Al at hartford, you have no worries they have been doing this alot longer than most. around 30+yrs i think.


vaughn

I got a shipment from a BIG breeder via UPS. There are those that use it.

Who are they? I am curious to know...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kavmon

if this is the one from Al at hartford, you have no worries they have been doing this alot longer than most. around 30+yrs i think.


vaughn

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You can do something for 30 years the wrong way.


Don't get me wrong, I have heard great things about them, but I think anyone who claims to care about their animals should NOT be using UPS. There are other legitimate ways of shipping the animal, so why not use them instead of risking it???

Am I missing something?

I don't think any successful breeder, wholesaler, seller, pet shop or at least I would hope most would not risk their animals or their credibility by breaking UPS policies. Think about it, they're shipping hundreds if not thousands of animals a year. Do you really think UPS is not going to notice all the boxes that state "LIVE HARMLESS REPTILES" going through their trucks?



Maybe there is something we don't know. Maybe UPS has granted certain sellers, breeders and pet shops the alternative of shipping live harmless reptiles through UPS. I would love to get the info straight from someone who ships a lot of animals through UPS. I doubt if they ship 500 or 1000 snakes through UPS under the radar.

I know some ship snake through UPS without authorization from UPS as a lot do with FedEx. But I'm almost positive there are businesses out there that ship through UPS with their approval.

If I'm wrong, than that is screwed up! As Adam commented, there are a lot of breeders out there using UPS every day.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ssscales

I don't think any successful breeder, wholesaler, seller, pet shop or at least I would hope most would not risk their animals or their credibility by breaking UPS policies. Think about it, they're shipping hundreds if not thousands of animals a year. Do you really think UPS is not going to notice all the boxes that state "LIVE HARMLESS REPTILES" going through their trucks?



Maybe there is something we don't know. Maybe UPS has granted certain sellers, breeders and pet shops the alternative of shipping live harmless reptiles through UPS. I would love to get the info straight from someone who ships a lot of animals through UPS. I doubt if they ship 500 or 1000 snakes through UPS under the radar.

I know some ship snake through UPS without authorization from UPS as a lot do with FedEx. But I'm almost positive there are businesses out there that ship through UPS with their approval.

If I'm wrong, than that is screwed up! As Adam commented, there are a lot of breeders out there using UPS every day.

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I agree. I would like to know as well. I know NERDs terms page says they ship UPS but I don't know if that refers to animals that are acceptable under UPS policy for live animals. I checked a bunch of the major breeders sites and haven't found another that mentions UPS.

if the ups thing bothers you that much, just do the delta dash. problem solved. i'm sure they will work with you and get you straight.


vaughn

Vaughn, I dont know if she is bothered by it but rather wants an answer from someone in the know. I would like to hear it as well.

I would like to see some one sign on and state "we've been approved with UPS to ship live harmless snakes for over 5yrs and this is how we did it" or "we've been doing it like everyone else for the past 5yrs, against their policy".


Honestly, I'm curious now! Because I always thought UPS also had some certification process and a waiver you signed like FedEx and that was it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Vaughn, I dont know if she is bothered by it but rather wants an answer from someone in the know. I would like to hear it as well.

---

An answer to what?

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

An answer to what?

-adam

---

What big breeders are shipping UPS? Do they have a certification through UPS or are they doing it against the official UPS policy? If they have gotten some sort of UPS approval, is that something anyone can get?

i don't know the exact policy of them all but i know that reptiles has been shipped through all the carriers. according to my local fedex and delta people they don't handle the packages any differently than any other package shipped the same way, it's just a box to them.


vaughn

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ssscales

I don't think any successful breeder, wholesaler, seller, pet shop or at least I would hope most would not risk their animals or their credibility by breaking UPS policies. Think about it, they're shipping hundreds if not thousands of animals a year. Do you really think UPS is not going to notice all the boxes that state "LIVE HARMLESS REPTILES" going through their trucks?

---

Thats assuming they are marking the boxes with "Live Harmless Reptiles". I have received snakes from a couple big breeders that were not marked in this fashion. I also noticed they had written the species info on the bottom of the box, out of normal sight. At the time, I didnt think that much about it. But now, it seems to make sense on why.

Boaphile

http://www.theboaphile.com/information.html

Bob Clark
http://www.bobclark.com/tracker.asp

Ralph Davis
http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/cu...able/terms.asp

These are a few that offer UPS as an option.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jglass38

What big breeders are shipping UPS? Do they have a certification through UPS or are they doing it against the official UPS policy? If they have gotten some sort of UPS approval, is that someone anyone can get?

---

I have a better question.

Does it matter? If the breeder is guarenteeing live arrival (ie replacement animal or money back if something goes wrong) why would you care how he/she gets it to you? If a 'big guy' has a good reputation and if known for doing right by their customers, I think it's a safe bet that they know what they're doing when it comes to shipping.

If a buyer has a personal preference as to shipping and the breeder you are working with uses something else ... why not just move on? There are plenty of breeders out there that will ship any way you want.

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I have a better question.

Does it matter? If the breeder is guarenteeing live arrival (ie replacement animal or money back if something goes wrong) why would you care how he/she gets it to you? If a 'big guy' has a good reputation and if known for doing right by their customers, I think it's a safe bet that they know what they're doing when it comes to shipping.

If a buyer has a personal preference as to shipping and the breeder you are working with uses something else ... why not just move on? There are plenty of breeders out there that will ship any way you want.

-adam

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To me it doesn't matter particularly. I would never order a snake shipped through UPS. I have seen how they treat the boxes that they are responsible for delivering in one piece. I have personally received packages multiple times that were practically destroyed by them. So it just brings me back to the question: Are the breeders who ship UPS aware of how UPS may be treating their animals? I personally would like my animals delivered via Pony Express but I believe they are no longer operating in my area.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jglass38

I have seen how they treat the boxes that they are responsible for delivering in one piece.

---

Do you honestly believe that an employee working for UPS treats a package differently than an employee working for FedEx, Delta, or any other company that handles thousands of packages each day. Do you have any idea how many people handle each package from one end of a shipment to the other, and do you honestly believe that any one of the can really give 2 poops what's actually inside of one box out of thousands when they have bills to pay, kids at home with fevers, alimony payments, cars in the shop, and all of the other pains that real people working their butts off to make ends meat have?

If you've had a bad experience with UPS, that's a shame ... but I bet there are just as many people that have had bad experiences with FedEx and other carriers as well.

In reality, which carrier is used doesn't matter at all as long as the breeder you are buying from A. knows how to pack the animal to not only handle weather, but the potential abuse from a carrier that is having a not so great day and B. stands behind their product 100% .... A breeder that will guarantees live arrival and means it ... 100% refund or a replacement animal is something goes wrong.

-adam

To me it matters as down the road I may want to offer UPS and an alternative courier or if UPS delivers to an area that FedEx doesn't or if a particular buyer wishes me to ship via UPS instead of FedEx.

Now I am curious, because for years I assumed UPS had a certification process for these breeders and wholesalers shipping through UPS.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Do you honestly believe that an employee working for UPS treats a package differently than an employee working for FedEx, Delta, or any other company that handles thousands of packages each day. Do you have any idea how many people handle each package from one end of a shipment to the other, and do you honestly believe that any one of the can really give 2 poops what's actually inside of one box out of thousands when they have bills to pay, kids at home with fevers, alimony payments, cars in the shop, and all of the other pains that real people working their butts off to make ends meat have?

If you've had a bad experience with UPS, that's a shame ... but I bet there are just as many people that have had bad experiences with FedEx and other carriers as well.

In reality, which carrier is used doesn't matter at all as long as the breeder you are buying from A. knows how to pack the animal to not only handle weather, but the potential abuse from a carrier that is having a not so great day and B. stands behind their product 100% .... A breeder that will guarantees live arrival and means it ... 100% refund or a replacement animal is something goes wrong.

-adam

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I agree 100% except for one thing. Delta and FedEx allow shippers to become certified. With that certification comes the ability to legally mark your package as LIVE HARMLESS REPTILES with a latin and common name of the animal inside. In my mind (and I could be out of my mind) I would hope that a counter rep, sorter, loader or driver would see that and treat the box a bit more carefully (barring the total sadists out there) than an unmarked package. If UPS does NOT allow legal shipments of snakes, then these breeders shipping via them would not risk violating any laws by marking the package as they would with FedEx or Delta. Am I way off here?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kavmon

if the ups thing bothers you that much, just do the delta dash. problem solved. vaughn

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I already said in like my 3rd post i was just doing the delta dash.


So Adam, as long as I can get a refund or a replacement , it doesn't matter if the animal is mistreated through shipment, or if it dies?? Since I will get a refund if something happens, I shouldn't care what happens to it in between there and here??

and I agree with you jamie

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jglass38

I agree 100% except for one thing. Delta and FedEx allow shippers to become certified. With that certification comes the ability to legally mark your package as LIVE HARMLESS REPTILES with a latin and common name of the animal inside. In my mind (and I could be out of my mind) I would hope that a counter rep, sorter, loader or driver would see that and treat the box a bit more carefully (barring the total sadists out there) than an unmarked package.

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Why would you think that a counter rep, sorter, loader, or driver would actually care? If they're going to trash boxes that could contain breakable objects that people paid good money for, do you think that a label with the word "reptile" on it is going to turn them into mother theresa? LOL ... My guess is that they would kick it even harder. Nice people are nice people and jerks are jerks ... labels and certification processes don't change that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jglass38

If UPS does NOT allow legal shipments of snakes, then these breeders shipping via them would not risk violating any laws by marking the package as they would with FedEx or Delta. Am I way off here?

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According to what's been posted on this thread, it's not ILLEGAL to ship snakes via UPS ... barring the existance of a certification process, it's against their terms of service. No crime would be committed. It's like bringing food into a movie theatre ... you don't get arrested, they just have the right to ask you to leave ... but for the most part, all they really want you to do is give them your money. ;)

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by adizziedoll

So Adam, as long as I can get a refund or a replacement , it doesn't matter if the animal is mistreated through shipment, or if it dies?? Since I will get a refund if something happens, I shouldn't care what happens to it in between there and here??

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If the animal is packed correctly why would it die? How could it be "mistreated"? ... Rough handling, getting lost, etc are all things that can happen on ANY carrier ... there is not "magic" service that comes with certification. All of the boxes are handled the same. I guess I just don't get it.

-adam

I have to disagree with you there Adam. Odds are, a guy who would normally throw a box on to the conveyor belt might be a little gentler with one that has a live animal in it. Of course there are those lunatics out there.

As far as whats legal or not, its against UPS terms of service. So it goes to reason that these breeders would NOT be marking the boxes and theoretically could put their animals at further risk.

I enjoy a good debate and I think this is a valid one.

i'm blessed i live in va. i don't worry about shipping, i just drive up to adam's shop and pick them out of the fb racks, put them in my foam box and cuddle them all the way home! works for me.

vaughn

I just want a simple answer to one question.

Does UPS allow these breeders to ship snakes via UPS or are they doing so against UPS policies?

If UPS does allow them to ship live harmless snakes, how did they go about it?
If it doesn't and they do it anyway, that's their business.

I think im just going to agree to disagree with you adam :neener: and agree with Jamie

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jglass38

I have to disagree with you there Adam. Odds are, a guy who would normally throw a box on to the conveyor belt might be a little gentler with one that has a live animal in it. Of course there are those lunatics out there.

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Talk to some of the people that work at FedEx ... you'll hear much different ... they DON'T CARE ... the guys in Memphis move so many boxes each night, they don't even read them ... they just grab and toss.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jglass38

As far as whats legal or not, its against UPS terms of service. So it goes to reason that these breeders would NOT be marking the boxes and theoretically could put their animals at further risk.

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There's nothing in UPS's terms of service that says you can't mark a box "LIVE HARMLESS REPTILES".

I just don't understand why anyone would think that a little label really makes a difference. From the time the box leaves the shippers hands until the time it arrives at it's destination there is potential for bad things to happen ... if things like labels and "certifications" make you feel more comfortable when receiving animals, then go for it ... I've been shipping for 10 years ... hundreds of packages ... I can honestly tell you that it doesn't matter. The snake is either going to get there or it's not ... it's going to be alive or it's not ... labels can't help one way or the other. ;)

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kavmon

i'm blessed i live in va. i don't worry about shipping, i just drive up to adam's shop and pick them out of the fb racks, put them in my foam box and cuddle them all the way home! works for me.

vaughn

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The mental picture of you cuddling a snake while driving is priceless :P

ok, the cuddling thing was just for drama. they really ride in the back seats. but i do the speed limit,buckle the box up,avoid potholes, and turn the temp up for them! lol


vaughn

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Talk to some of the people that work at FedEx ... you'll hear much different ... they DON'T CARE ... the guys in Memphis move so many boxes each night, they don't even read them ... they just grab and toss.



There's nothing in UPS's terms of service that says you can't mark a box "LIVE HARMLESS REPTILES".

I just don't understand why anyone would think that a little label really makes a difference. From the time the box leaves the shippers hands until the time it arrives at it's destination there is potential for bad things to happen ... if things like labels and "certifications" make you feel more comfortable when receiving animals, then go for it ... I've been shipping for 10 years ... hundreds of packages ... I can honestly tell you that it doesn't matter. The snake is either going to get there or it's not ... it's going to be alive or it's not ... labels can't help one way or the other. ;)

-adam

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I suppose. I'd like to believe there is more care than that put into it. I guess it all comes down to how the buyer feels about it. Everyone is certainly free to make their own decisions and go with who they want. I know my main concern when shipping has been and will be the safety of the animal. I could be dead wrong, but i'll go with the belief that the company who has decided to allow the shipping of live harmless reptiles and has gone as far as to offer a certification program instructs their employees to put a little extra care into those boxes. Let me live in my Utopia, will ya? :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kavmon

ok, the cuddling thing was just for drama. they really ride in the back seats. but i do the speed limit,buckle the box up,avoid potholes, and turn the temp up for them! lol


vaughn

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Taking the kind of care that any good person would. Maybe instead of UPS or FedEx or Delta we could all send our animals through Vaughn-Express. Personal care in every delivery. Am I on to something?

you pay for food and gas and it's a done deal! i like steak
(top sirloin) 1" medium well. lol


vaughn

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kavmon

you pay for food and gas and it's a done deal! i like steak
(top sirloin) 1" medium well. lol


vaughn

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haha..I think I'm going to take the drive down to Adam's myself (if he'll still have me :D). I want to be the one cuddling my babies on the 3.5 hour drive back!