Is it possible to change laws?

I read all the stories here and on other forums about stupid snake keepers. The news always has at least one good loser in it.

Any ways my point is how hard would it be to suggest new laws for keeps snakes, or possibly any pets in general. I will stick to snakes for this post but the possibiliteis are unlimited. Keep in mind as you read this I am not a tree hugger, a vegatarian or a save the whales kind of guy. I do believe if you get an animal you do your best to take care of it. If your best isn't good enough you should let it go to someone more responsible.

Here comes the good stuff.

Purchasing

People should be required before they purchase a snake to watch a 30-60 min video before hand.
This video can be used to teach:
Husbandry skills
Temperments of the spieces being purchased
Housing requirements
Feeding needs

I know this is no small logistical feat by any means. I believe this will probably keep a lot of people from actually getting pets all-together. I don't really think that is a bad thing. I know I would have never purchased an Iguana after learning about them, I would have also spent more money better housing my snake before I bought it.

Problem, buying snakes on-line. I think once people take the class they could also be entered into a national database with a sort of PIN that breeders could check to see if thier prospective clients are eligible to purchase animals. They could also be presented with a certificate to use at any store to prove they are already trained for selective breeds or species.

I think that something like this would benifit communities as a whole. I see less abuse and neglect going on due to ignorance, and better kept pets all over. Maybe I am off my rocker tonight, but I am so sick of hearing about stupid people. We all make mistakes, but I believe most people get pets with all the love in thier heart, and a little training can go a long way.

I would really like to hear what people think about this. My town (I don't live in town) has a "no snake law", I have been thinking of ways to eliminate it. I also thought of holding a class on these same basic concepts in leiu of a video. People could pay a small fee to attend and learn a lot.

Thank you for listening, reading and absorbing.

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Originally Posted by lars5277

Problem, buying snakes on-line. I think once people take the class they could also be entered into a national database with a sort of PIN that breeders could check to see if thier prospective clients are eligible to purchase animals.

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I consider myself left of center, but that seems much too extreme for my liking. Sure, it would be great if every reptile owner were educated before purchasing a pet, but how much intrusion do you want the government to have in your life? Would you stop at reptiles, or extend it to dogs, cats, fish, etc. One could extend it even further and claim that potential mothers should be certified before giving birth.

No, sorry... There will always be ignorant people, maltreated animals, and unscrupulous retailers. I think the best route would be for people to actually speak up when they see something wrong whether it be to a new herp owner or a pet shop owner. :b0x0rz:

Spend some time at an animal shelter and you would definately consider it for cats and dogs. All I am suggesting is people watch a short video at a pet store before purchasing a pet. Just for the record, people who mistreat thier kids lose them and sometimes have to recieve state sanctioned training and evaluation to get them back. I am not asking big brother to make sure people have cages and such, just to help inform them of what they are getting into. You have to prove you know how to drive before you get a car. We all know that 2000lbs of 75 MPH of screaming metal isn't going to hurt anyone.

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No, sorry... There will always be ignorant people, maltreated animals, and unscrupulous retailers. I think the best route would be for people to actually speak up when they see something wrong whether it be to a new herp owner or a pet shop owner. :b0x0rz:

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Hehe....I'm "right of center" but I completely agree with xdeus on this point. There's way too much government intrusion in our lives as it is.

And just who would make all those videos? Who would agree to what kinds of information should be "taught?" Even experienced, caring keepers sometimes disagree quite vocally on particular husbandry methods.

I understand your desire to weed out all the idiots in the worldm but as xdeus so eloquently put it, that just isn't going to happen. The very best we can do is educate the people we come in contact with ourselves, and report cases of severe abuse when we see it.

Maybe someday society will be more accepting and understanding of the herp hobbies and businesses...but until then, drawing attention to it with more and more restrictive laws isn't the way to help, I believe.

One of my favorite pet stores takes the time to train me and make sure I have all I need for for any herps that I buy from him. I have seen him turn customers away he felt weren't worthy of a pet. He might lose a few bucks that way, but he gets a lot of repeat traffic.

In a perfect world your idea would be good..however, it would cost to maintain a data base such as what you propose in your idea, who would absorb the cost, the responsibility for maintaining and such? Also, it would not neccessarily make sure the animals themselves are kept better, anyone can watch a video and still keep the animal in a wrong/harmful/stupid manner. Also, getting such permits/certificates would most likely also have a cost of its own. Paperwork can still be lost in the mail, etc... or stuck on some over worked persons desk..slowing the process down. Furthermore, most pet shops would not take the time to "check" the validity of ones permit/certificate, and in this day and age it is rather easy to forge things such as this. And how many breeders are going to want to take the time to do those things also? Probably not many. In reality, how many ppl are going to pay for a class to get a permit? This kind of regulating who can and who cannot purchase certain reptiles may create a "black market" of sorts for even the most common of animals due to ppl not wanting to pay for a class/permit/certificate.

As far as changing laws already in place, I would think it would be a matter of starting a petition to get a law struck down, but getting enough ppl in one community to back that may be aweful hard. Lets face it, there are more ppl out there who are ignorant of reptiles and it is those that have helped to get such laws put into place. Unless you have alot of money and a way to get plenty of lobbyist together to help fight these laws, I just dont know that there is much we can do once the laws are in place.

I can understand your frustration, as I feel it too, but it is our job, as responsible herp keepers to help educated where we can, and lead by example. There are always going to be ppl out there who will not take care of the herps/reptiles they purchase the right way, no matter what we do.

My God they don't require anything for you to have children and be a parent so you know it would never happen for any type of animal ownership especailly snakes. (not that it should)
I am waay left of center so you can guess my take on it :)

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Originally Posted by lars5277

Spend some time at an animal shelter and you would definately consider it for cats and dogs. All I am suggesting is people watch a short video at a pet store before purchasing a pet. Just for the record, people who mistreat thier kids lose them and sometimes have to recieve state sanctioned training and evaluation to get them back. I am not asking big brother to make sure people have cages and such, just to help inform them of what they are getting into. You have to prove you know how to drive before you get a car. We all know that 2000lbs of 75 MPH of screaming metal isn't going to hurt anyone.

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Originally Posted by lars5277

One of my favorite pet stores takes the time to train me and make sure I have all I need for for any herps that I buy from him. I have seen him turn customers away he felt weren't worthy of a pet. He might lose a few bucks that way, but he gets a lot of repeat traffic.

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I have worked in many shelters, in fact, I have run a few in my time already. I understand what you are saying, but it is just a fact of life. One that you, like me, will have to get use to, like it or not. It certainly sounds as if you have a great pet shop in your area, however, I have worked in a few pet shops also, let me tell you this, the good ones are far and few between..most do not care what treatment the animals will get once they leave the store, all they care about really is the sale. To them, the means justifies the end.
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I am just thinking about retiring and living here in a few years and I want to raise snakes. Just seems like I would have to break the law to do that. I am also opposed to the actions of 1-2 stupid people causing laws that affect millions of normal people.

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Originally Posted by lars5277

I am just thinking about retiring and living here in a few years and I want to raise snakes. Just seems like I would have to break the law to do that. I am also opposed to the actions of 1-2 stupid people causing laws that affect millions of normal people.

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The thing is..it is not 1-2 stupid ppl. It is many. The best thing you can do, is pay attention to the proposed laws carefully and begin to fight them, before they are put into effect. But as I said, you would have to have lots of money laying around to do this.

i think that breeders/dealers have the responsibility to educate their buyers on the animals. if they can't or will not, you probably should not support them. the last thing i want is the goverment in my hobby! that would really take the fun out of it.


vaughn

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Originally Posted by lars5277

I am just thinking about retiring and living here in a few years and I want to raise snakes. Just seems like I would have to break the law to do that. I am also opposed to the actions of 1-2 stupid people causing laws that affect millions of normal people.

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That's true, but it's hard to put a blanket condition to fix this issue. I think some of what you propose would be wise for things such as keeping hots or pythons that have the potential to get over say... 20 feet long. :rolleyes:

Okay, now back to my... :beer:

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Originally Posted by kavmon

i think that breeders/dealers have the responsibility to educate their buyers on the animals. if they can't or will not, you probably should not support them. the last thing i want is the goverment in my hobby! that would really take the fun out of it.


vaughn

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I agree with you on that!

The government is already involved in too many aspects of our lives as it is... telling us how we should or should not raise our children and such, etc.. yet, alot of them dont even have kids, or the ones who do, are not raising thier kids, the nanny is... what do they (the bio parents) know about child raising when they dont do it themselves. Who are they do tell others how to do things? When they themselves have no idea, muchless the experience... how about those lovely child protective services ppl, have you ever taken the time to ASK them if they have children of thier own? Well, I have, they claim to be experts..why cause they took some class and rung up a huge bill to get a certificate that says they are an expert? I will tell you this now, alot of them dont even have children of thier own, yet they are making the judgement call to take or not take someones children away.. while we are at it making laws regarding regulations of all things, why not make it a law/regulation that they must have a child/children for x amount of time to gain the knowledge and experience in child raising before they can make decisions for someone else. I realise there are cases out there that a child should be taken out of a home, blatant abuse, yet, look at the snobs who spoil thier children mercilessly b/c they have the money to pay for an item of whatever it is thier kid is whining about to get them out their hair..yet they look at an average person who cannot do those same things, and think we are so bad, our children are abused, etc.. and our children should be taken because we have children calling foul b/c they are not getting thier way while thier rich friend does everytime it whines or snivels. Just another example of crap that goes on.

Should we make laws/regulations/rules for everything, I think not. Big brother is already involved in way too much as is.

here's some food for thought, as herpers i think it is fair to say that we are a very,very,very, small minority in the total population. i'll just make some numbers up! lol let's say that herpers are 1% of the voting population. no matter what rules,permits,education,etc we do or try to do to help/correct things, whatever the 99% want or fear is going to prevail. most people don't give a **** about reptiles and could care less what happens to them or us. i think we should support good breeders/dealers and keep things quiet. the gov. involved or imposing restrictions is not a solution, we have alot of laws/rules already in society, and also alot of crime. just my thoughts.


vaughn

I was just talking to my hubby about this.. he said " I am a machinist... ppl write programs for the machines I run, and they have all these certificates that say they are experts and what not, but I still get programs that I have to go in and fix, they have not ran the machines ever (most of them), dont know the tools muchless the capabilities of the machines.... and they still write bad programs, and we, the machinists have to proof out their work.... not much different than those who make laws regarding herps, how many of them keep or know how to care for herps?"

Well maybe not a law, but requiring pet shops to "offer" the training. I think most people go into pets with the best of intentions but suffer from ignorance. Let the customer decide if they would like to view the video or something. I think even that would help a lot more than having a 17 yr old kid from the pet stop explain all the ways to care for the snake (I know there are some good kids out there I am not slamming them all).

Lars you would be asking for 'untrained' people at pet stores to show a video to 'train people'.....talk about the blind leading the blind....I think pet stores are the source when it comes to causing the problem.....who else pawns off burms to 14 yr. old kids to make a buck?....In Louisiana, I am supposed to have 500 hrs of 'approved' experience, have my home inspected, be placed on a list, have to pay fees and several other things in order to keep large boids legally.....but I could still drive in just about any pet store and purchase a burm...why don't they have to have that experience to sell them?...

...but what to do about that? Ask the government to step in?...ha ha...they don't do their job now.....all you would be doing is asking for more laws and regulations that will be broken...and people that care for their animals and the law will be given the shaft.

...if you are worried about herp laws, I suggest doing two things:
1) Join a larger Herp society in your state. They are reptile owners' voices in politics generally...so get involved
2) Call your state Dept. of Wildlife and Fisheries. Each state generally has only 1-2 people that are involved with reptiles. These are great people to talk to. They will generally know of any laws that are being voted on, who is pushing for them, etc. They are also great people to talk to in order to find loopholes in the law that could allow you to own reptiles legally.

Hope that input helps.

The sad thing is I can not vote in the state I live in. If I choose to vote I lose a full ride scholarship in the state I am from. $40K is a lot of money to lose to voice an opinion.

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Originally Posted by lars5277

The sad thing is I can not vote in the state I live in. If I choose to vote I lose a full ride scholarship in the state I am from. $40K is a lot of money to lose to voice an opinion.

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You do not have to vote to make a difference. Voice your opinion....alot of stuff just requires signatures etc....so the support of reptile ownership can be shown to government officials....those two things that I listed are a great start....laws against reptiles are being fought everywhere...so vote in the state that you can too.

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Originally Posted by lars5277

You have to prove you know how to drive before you get a car.

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Just because you know how to drive; doesnt mean you'll do so responsibly. Making people watch a video about snake care and sign a piece of paper; wont make them actually care to care for their snakes.

I understand your frustration Lars. Personally I'd like to see very strict laws regarding pet stores and their care and sales of any creature, but most especially those considered "exotics". However, even my socialized government little Canadian soul doesn't want the government overly involved. Primarily because as has been stated, most of the law makers have nil experience in actual ownership of these creatures they are attempting to mandate.

I think that responsible breeders that strive to sell to responsible owners is the best defense against abused snakes. It won't always work but nothing ever does work 100% of the time. I suspect (though have no proof of course) that most of the rescues/abused or neglected snakes that we all see are coming from impulse purchases out of pet stores. Considering that many states in the US do not even have humane laws in effect that cover anything in a pet store (let alone in a private home) other than canines and felines, that's where I think it needs to start.

I've read a lot of the responses here, but I'm going to toss in my two cents.

And I'm more right of the center. ^_^ Anyhoo...

I think that having a "training" program would force the government to be more inside our lives, however, I do think that in a much more effective world, it would do very little. Students go through DARE in middle school and high school, yet there are thousands of kids who are still doing drugs.

I will, however, pose my own idea, perhaps a small fix for the bad publicity of reptiles, and especially snakes. Anyone who wishes to purchase a snake OVER 10-12' should have to get a permit. Perhaps even go through that training program just like you would for a gun or a car. This might potentially cut down on the bad press of snakes. (I wish.) At least this would cut down on irresponsible people owning these larger snakes. It's not a perfect semi-fix, but it is an idea.