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Beginning Hots
Obiviously Im not going to go out and buy one now but after I get some more experience what would be some good ideas to do to be ready for hots. Im not interested in the vipers and cobras but more the rattlers and copperheads.
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Re: Beginning Hots
If I wanted to start keeping hots, I would search out successful, experienced keepers and begin communicating with them and trying to find someone willing to teach. Best case would be to find someone local so you can get some visual lessons as well as written.
I might also check into volunteer situations at zoos or other local parks in your area that may keep hots on display.
And lastly, I would seek out some aggressive, but NON-venomous snakes to keep. I would use them to "practice" all the techniques needed to never, ever get bit.
OH...and I would check with local hospitals to see what sort of anti-venom they have on supply and make sure I had a supply of my own for stuff they might not carry. (And I understand that stuff is VERY VERY expensive.)
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Re: Beginning Hots
First off, Judy did great on that. Second, obviously check local laws. Then all the cage setups would have to be perfect and escape proof(again obviously). I was recomended by alot of people to get a coach whip or a tree boa. Im going with the coach whip for price reasons. And get great skills with hooks. Since you can NEVER free hand hots, thats one thing you have to be great at. I was told you can even hook you ball pythojns which is your choice just because hooking isnt something you can do. Work and work with it and you'll be on a good track
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Re: Beginning Hots
you may want to look into the impact of keeping hots on your insurance policies. if you have health insurance or homeowner insurance, you may find yourself either getting cancelled outright or your premiums going through the roof.
local laws also need to be carefully checked.
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Re: Beginning Hots
I would first off check your local laws. Here in Omaha we can't keep hots legally. The best book I know of for hots is 'Venomous Snakes in Captivity' by BW smith
http://www.venomousreptiles.org/revi...2312289613cae7
I would read that book like its you life until you decide you may be ready. First thing IMO is first hand experience. Next you need to have a SECURE room with mesh over the vents and a sweep under the door. No clutter allowed. This will make it obvious if a snake has escaped and no where for him to hide will keep safety up. Snake hooks and Tongs are the basic tools of the trade. What would you consider keeping a hot in for a cage?
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Re: Beginning Hots
I have seen a special cage that some hot keepers use; it has a slide-in divider. The purpose is, to clean out one side of the cage, you slide the divider in so that the snake is not where it can reach you; clean that side, then get the snake to go over to that clean side; reinsert the divider and clean that part.
The others already brought up the other points I was going to make. :)
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Re: Beginning Hots
Not to sound like a smart@$$, but once you've A) gained experience by being mentored by an established hot keeper & B) done a *TON* of homework on keeping hot snakes, you'd already know what species make "good" beginner hots (if there is indeed such a thing).
K~
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Re: Beginning Hots
I*t does seem like it's definately a branch of the hobby that you'd definately need hands-on experience. Not just reading/online research; serious hands-on learning; because it's your life, others' lives, and the hobby's reputation at stake.. I know I will never keep venomous; for one thing, my reflexes suck. ;) What reasons would you have for wanting to keep them (just curious?)
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Re: Beginning Hots
I started out this Beaded lizards an Gila monsters, then with the help of a local volenteer program in Tucson I started out with The WDB Rattlesnakes. They are quite calm compared to othe rattlers. every one is very right in that you should get hands on training with a expert. not jo blow down the road that "rescues hots" I also started out with hot insects and spiders. Scorpions are fun and the ones in pet stores (I cant even try and spell the name of them) the big black ones' the females can get really nasty. they wont kill you (unless you have a problem with bee stings) but there is another starter. I could be way off on this and if i am please feel free to correct me.
EDIT: alll of the animals above were worked with and handeled under my training program through Tucson Volenteer work at the Sonora Desert Muse.
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Re: Beginning Hots
Quote:
Originally Posted by jessie_k_pythons
Scorpions are fun and the ones in pet stores (I cant even try and spell the name of them) the big black ones' the females can get really nasty. they wont kill you (unless you have a problem with bee stings) but there is another starter. I could be way off on this and if i am please feel free to correct me.
I believe you are referring to Emperor Scorpions, and yes the sting is considered to be rather mild.
However, dealing with hot inverts, in my opinion, does not really prepare you to deal with hot herps. It is much easier to maintain and work with hot inverterbrates than say...a hot snake with a 2 foot strike range.
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Re: Beginning Hots
Quote:
Originally Posted by jessie_k_pythons
EDIT: alll of the animals above were worked with and handeled under my training program through Tucson Volenteer work at the Sonora Desert Muse.
That is so cool! I love the Sonora Desert Museum...=)
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Re: Beginning Hots
Yea some vipers have a heck of a strike range! I stoped working with hots when I hit my head and lost some hand-eye- skills... I'm just a tad slow now.:imslow:
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Re: Beginning Hots
Quote:
Originally Posted by jessie_k_pythons
I started out this Beaded lizards an Gila monsters, then with the help of a local volenteer program in Tucson I started out with The WDB Rattlesnakes. They are quite calm compared to othe rattlers. every one is very right in that you should get hands on training with a expert. not jo blow down the road that "rescues hots" I also started out with hot insects and spiders. Scorpions are fun and the ones in pet stores (I cant even try and spell the name of them) the big black ones' the females can get really nasty. they wont kill you (unless you have a problem with bee stings) but there is another starter. I could be way off on this and if i am please feel free to correct me.
EDIT: alll of the animals above were worked with and handeled under my training program through Tucson Volenteer work at the Sonora Desert Muse.
I know this thread is a bit old but oh well. :D I'd just like to point out that one *can NOT* compare invertebrates to venomous snakes. The single most deadly scorpion in the hobby, Leiurus quinquestriatus (Egyptian Deathstalker)and the most dangerous true spider known, Atrax robustus (Sydney Funnel web), have the ability to kill a human pretty sufficiently, however, even their venom can not be compared to that of a venomous snake. There is *no* such thing as a "good beginner's hot" when it comes to snakes. Snakes are in a ball park all their own, especially in comparison to invertebrates...there just is no comparison. An invert can not strike like a snake, nor can they move as quickly. The care requirements, on the part of the care taker and their level of caution, as well as necessary supplies, is *much* different than with invertebrates. I keep some of the hottest scorpions in the hobby, including the L.Q and I would NEVER use what I know about dealing with them to try and deal with venomous snakes....it's not even remotely the same.
And P. imperator (emperor scorpions) they're venom is *more* mild than that of a bee. In addition, scorpion venom (arthropod venom in general) can NOT be compared to insect venom....they are comprised of completely different things. You can be stung by an imp. and not suffer any effects what so ever and get stung by a bee and die of an allergic reaction. ;)
For some excellent reading on how to learn to work with venomous snakes, check out this link, especially post #11.Welcome to Hot Elementary School
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Re: Beginning Hots
this may be off-topic, but are Vine Snakes considered hots?
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Re: Beginning Hots
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishmommy
this may be off-topic, but are Vine Snakes considered hots?
they are rear fanged mildly venomous so yes.
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Re: Beginning Hots
I only know what I've read and shows I have watched reguarding hots but the same statement always comes up that "it isn't a matter of you will never get bite but a matter of when"
Like Judy said better make sure your in an area that would even know what to do if you got bite and had the anti-venom on hand.
I have heard that Copperheads are good first hots as their venom is not as strong as most and unless you are young,elderly or in poor health that a bite is not that bad and most times not life threating. Still they are hots.
First hand experience w/ a experienced handler would seem mandatory in my book.
As for caging I would think they would have to be keylocked and then the room they are kept in locked also at all times.
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Re: Beginning Hots
Quote:
Originally Posted by uro1001
they are rear fanged mildly venomous so yes.
Would that make Hognoses considered as hots?
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Re: Beginning Hots
yes hognose snakes are mildly venomous although they are not considered"true" hots. there is no best hot. coppers are only"better" because they are rarely fatal. i personally think that my monacleds are real sweetes but they can kill you. who ever said"its not a matter if you get but its when" is just hilarious as it is based on no experience. ive been bitten twice-one from a black and one from a cotton. i own more monacleds and have never even been close to getting bit. why? because i know there personality and movements and they are very easy to predict. if you focas on one species of hot you will likely not get bit:)
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Re: Beginning Hots
Quote:
Originally Posted by uro1001
yes hognose snakes are mildly venomous although they are not considered"true" hots. there is no best hot. coppers are only"better" because they are rarely fatal. i personally think that my monacleds are real sweetes but they can kill you. who ever said"its not a matter if you get but its when" is just hilarious as it is based on no experience. ive been bitten twice-one from a black and one from a cotton. i own more monacleds and have never even been close to getting bit. why? because i know there personality and movements and they are very easy to predict. if you focas on one species of hot you will likely not get bit:)
The comment has been made by Jeff Corwin, by the Snake Wrangler dude ( can't think of his name now), Dr Bush,Bill Hasst and the two guys who head Venom 1 rescue in Fla. All of whom keep hot's or have extensive experience w/ hots.
No disrespect intended but I feel I would go with the advice of these gentlemen. You said you haven't been bite but then again your snake keeping days are not over yet, are they ? ( not trying to jinx ya ) :)
I just wanted to correct your statement that those comments where made and based on no experience.
I noticed you got into herps about 5 yrs ago and you are what, about 18-19 yrs old? Wow that's pretty cool, how long have you been into hots?
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Re: Beginning Hots
i have been bit twice by a black and a cotton. the people that get bit deal with many hot species. they do not know the specific personalites of each species. that is how i got bit by playing with a mamba. 61 viles of anti venom later and i dont deal with any very dangerous hots besides cobras. i can tell when they will bite and i stay clear of there personal"space" as not to threaton them. i know many 50+year olds dealing with a single hot species that never got bit:)
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Re: Beginning Hots
First oiff i know nothing about hots aside from the fact that they bite and you die lol. But why not start with a false water cobra they are midly venomous and can be quite mean they get big to so you would get hook practice too. But still any true hot you start with will be dangerous. Its like being able to flip on a trampoline and then trying you first flip over solid ground you could fall and really get hurt. Bad analogy but whatever.
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Re: Beginning Hots
I know this thread is a bit old but every hot keeper I have talked with said to start with the non venomous snake closest in behavior and size to the hot you want to get into. For example, a tiger rat snake would make a great training species if you wanted to work with mambas or large cobras since they are agile, quick to bite if warnings are ignored and usually pretty flighty. An untamed blood would make a great training species for a large heavy bodied species such as some of the bitis species like gaboons and puff adders. Of course they are not going to be the same to work with but they will give you the idea.
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Re: Beginning Hots
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pork Chops N' Corn Bread
I know this thread is a bit old but every hot keeper I have talked with said to start with the non venomous snake closest in behavior and size to the hot you want to get into. For example, a tiger rat snake would make a great training species if you wanted to work with mambas or large cobras since they are agile, quick to bite if warnings are ignored and usually pretty flighty. An untamed blood would make a great training species for a large heavy bodied species such as some of the bitis species like gaboons and puff adders. Of course they are not going to be the same to work with but they will give you the idea.
also coachwips are great for non hot practice. if you can last a year without getting but by a coachwip you are ready
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Re: Beginning Hots
Okay,
I must say a few things on the subject.
First off, there is no way to be completely ready for hots......Either you are a hot keeper or you are not. There is no gray area here. I know seasoned hot keepers that have been doing it for years and years and still have the "oh crap" situation happen from time to time. Remember getting bit is not the only bad thing that can happen when you are housing venomous animals in captivity. You must acquire the correct housing and tools to deal with them.
Secondly, you MUST go and spend much time at a hot keepers facility to get the do's and dont's covered and see someone with experience handle these animals. Reading and online research is great, however it will not get you to the point of keeping.
I am a hot keeper.........I wouldn't recommend anyone getting into it.
There are plenty of very aggressive, fast moving, non hot snakes to get some much needed "practice" on. As stated above coachwhips are a good one as well as w/c adult black ratsnakes. However these snakes are still nothing like a hot snake. Just something to practice with to get used to the tools needed. IE hooks, tongs, so on. Venomous animals react very differently from non-venomous animals, so any "practice" is more for tool training than anything else.
Hopefully anyone getting into hots will take the time needed to prepare and give it some serious thought before doing so.
Take care and God Bless!
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Re: Beginning Hots
I always go back the the wisdom of Carl Kauffeld on this subject.
He starts out his chapter on hots in "Keeper and the Kept" with basicly that you would be best advised not to. (this was in the 50s by the way) He then at once says but some of you will anyway so you might as well know how to do it right.
The best advice he gives it that you can go as far as to capture a hot in the field and care for it for years keeping it in perfect health and never actually phyically touch it.
Carl felt and I also believe you can do all you need with most snakes with hooks, clamps and other tools. One he used to catch snakes in the field with was a modified hook that would hold a capture bag open. He would simply use a hook to back the snake into it. He successfully used this to be the first person to ever assemble an entire collection of every rattle snake in North America.
The only time he was ever bit in decades of handling venomous snakes was when he broke his own rule and tried to remove some eye caps from an Indian cobra and got a fang in the finger.
He is one of my true heros and while he has gone on to field herping in the sky I recommend that "Snakes and Snake Hunting" and "Keeper and the Kept" be on every herpers bookshelf.
I don't keep hots but I have been dealing with them since I was 11 (with supervision), I have been tagged one time and it was not due to handling, simply steped on the back of a copperhead and took it right in the back of the calf.
Let me advise you on copperheads as one who has been there and done that. No they are not likely to kill you but yes a bite sucks major a$$ in a big way. The pain sucks and time in the Hospital blows worse! The damage to tissue is also impressive. Even with copperheads respect the heck out of them.
I limit my handling to field herping and "saving hots" by removing them from residential areas. I have to many animals and kids in my home to take the risk but have no issue with anyone doing it. Some day I may keep a pair of copperheads just because I adore them but it will be after we move to my semi retirement place up in Arkansas.
I also think that what you need to know and do to keep hots safely is way over blown by uninformed. Like I said you DON'T need to EVER TOUCH THEM. The poster mentioning the cage with a devider is a great idea. I have another one I thought of making one day. Why not build a hide box that can be closed and locked with a hook. Then you could wait till the snake is in the box and lock it in with a hook. No danger of being bit that way too.
The other good part is that copper heads and rattlers are both quite easy to handle with a hook, a lot easier then a lot of the cobras and the like. There are pretty well willing to be picked up with a hook and moved around at least once they get some size on them.
Other posters are right though you NEED hands on mentoring. Nothing replaces that. Look for a mentor that trys to avoid touching the snakes not one who like to do Steve Irwin impersonations! Last year I handled 27 rattle snakes and about a dozen copperheads and 2 corals, I never touched a one. There is a lot of wisdom there.
The other side is the responsibility! The room must as others have said be clutter free and totaly locked up no escape possible. You have to realize if your corn or king get out that a cat is likely to kill the snake or some jerk kill it with a hoe and it poses no danger to anyone. If a rattler gets out it could kill a person or pet and you will have to live with it. For the rest of us you will do damage to our hobby and to some of us to our incomes with the bad press.
That said if you want to do it, there is nothing wrong, learn the law, learn technique and do it right. We need hot keepers out there, just be above all patient and take it slow and under some quality mentorship,
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Re: Beginning Hots
Quote:
Let me advise you on copperheads as one who has been there and done that. No they are not likely to kill you but yes a bite sucks major a$ in a big way. The pain sucks and time in the Hospital blows worse! The damage to tissue is also impressive. Even with copperheads respect the heck out of them.
Excellent points.
A lot of people seem to discount the bite of a copperhead as nothing. Let me tell you, a bite WILL cost you a fortune in medical bills (insurance will not pay it) and they can cause severe tissue damage.
Granted they are one of the less potent hots but they are HOTS and should always be treated with the same level of respect as any other hot snake.
I have dealt with various hots and the one that ended up tagging me was the copperhead.
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Re: Beginning Hots
Quote:
There are plenty of very aggressive, fast moving, non hot snakes to get some much needed "practice" on. As stated above coachwhips are a good one as well as w/c adult black ratsnakes. However these snakes are still nothing like a hot snake. Just something to practice with to get used to the tools needed. IE hooks, tongs, so on. Venomous animals react very differently from non-venomous animals, so any "practice" is more for tool training than anything else.
Good point. Using a nonvenemous animal only gets you used to using hooks, tongs, restraining tubes, etc.
They do nothing to prepare you for what it is really like when you have a hot snake in front of you.
Knowing the animal could kill you heightens your senses. You just do not get the same "feeling" working with nonvenemous as you do with the real thing.
Anyone interested in hots needs to find someone to train them properly. Do not attempt to self train.
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Re: Beginning Hots
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPJ
Excellent points.
A lot of people seem to discount the bite of a copperhead as nothing. Let me tell you, a bite WILL cost you a fortune in medical bills (insurance will not pay it) and they can cause severe tissue damage.
Granted they are one of the less potent hots but they are HOTS and should always be treated with the same level of respect as any other hot snake.
I have dealt with various hots and the one that ended up tagging me was the copperhead.
About the only correction I have here (it is only a part correction) is the insurance. That works this way.
If like me you get bit with out doing somthing dumb like handling the snake as a pet. And do something even dumber like step over a blow down onto the back of a snake and get what they call a "legitmate bite" insurance THANK GOD does cover the bills. Which were massive. :mad:
If you keep hots though odds are your medical will as SPJ says will not cover it and your life can be changed for the worse beyound just the bite. 20-40K is not streatch for the bill you might get.
I do THINK there is insurance you can buy as a lisenced hot keeper to cover yourself. I think it is expensive but probally worth the cost if you are keeping those critters. If nothing else you should "self insure" your life by at least keeping the correct antivenom on hand.
I just wonder what happens when you show up like at the Dallas hospital and say, "I got bit by a mamba, or rino viper or some other exotic species that no doc at that hospital has any experience with. Or like what the heck when you say my 50% Gaboon and 50% Rino viper (gambino) tagged me, what the hell does the doc at Parkland in Dallas do then? :taz:
At least when I got tagged by a copperhead in PA they were like, don't worry we know what to do for you. I think it it had been an exotic in rural PA or Big City Texas it may have been a different story,
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Re: Beginning Hots
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPJ
Good point. Using a nonvenemous animal only gets you used to using hooks, tongs, restraining tubes, etc.
They do nothing to prepare you for what it is really like when you have a hot snake in front of you.
Knowing the animal could kill you heightens your senses. You just do not get the same "feeling" working with nonvenemous as you do with the real thing.
Anyone interested in hots needs to find someone to train them properly. Do not attempt to self train.
This is dead on! When you deal with say a mean old black racer, (which is a lot like a mean cobra or mamba) it still is not the same. You know getting tagged is a non issue. Once you have been bit a time or three you know it won't even hurt much.
Your heart rate does not go up, you don't get sick in your gut when it gets close, you don't get the shakes. It is good practice, sure but it is not the same.
Good points SPJ! It is a great way to learn the tools but we should be clear about the psycological differences between practice and an animal that really can disfigure or kill you,
That said if you want practice for a Copperhead, Cottonmouth or Rattler a mean diamond back water snake is pretty damn similar to all of them and honeslty more likely to nail you, :sabduel:
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Re: Beginning Hots
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjspirko
That said if you want practice for a Copperhead, Cottonmouth or Rattler a mean diamond back water snake is pretty damn similar to all of them and honeslty more likely to nail you, :sabduel:
Jack, you got that right. I snagged this little beauty out of my goldfish pond last year. He was only about 10 inches, but probably the meanest snake I have ever put my hands on.
http://www.baileyreptiles.com/images...y/dbwaterl.jpg
p.s. This is one of the greatest thread I have encountered on this site. As a non-hot keeper, I have truly enjoyed all of the knowledge that has come out of this thread.
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Re: Beginning Hots
When i was a kid a copperhead slid under the front door one night while we were watching steve urkel, my mom freaked out and i caught it with a shoe box and put it in an aquarium i had extra. Long story short i let it go in a creek close to the house... Thats my HOT story...... :salute:
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Re: Beginning Hots
Quote:
Originally Posted by muddoc
Jack, you got that right. I snagged this little beauty out of my goldfish pond last year. He was only about 10 inches, but probably the meanest snake I have ever put my hands on.
That brings up another interesting point! I would rather deal with a 5 foot rattler then a 12 inch one. Little vipers can just be mental and fricken fast as lightning!
Give me a big heavy bodied snake and I can use his own weight to control him to a large degree. Now a 9 inch copperhead or 12 inch cottonmouth is really hard to deal with. I use clamps for them, a hook is almost useless for those guys. Hook a big fat rattler they just sort of hang there. A tiny one flips out! :rolleye2:
On those diamond back water snakes the reason I think they make good training for large bodied vipers are a few.
One like you learned they are fricken mean as all hell!
Two they act a lot like a viper in attitude well like a mean one anyway.
Three they handle much the same as a viper, the body is similar in girth and the speed they have is about the same.
Four they do inspire fear in you. You think that little guy was tough, try a 4-5 foot diamond back water snake, mean and nasty teeth. Unlike the ratsnakes etc where if you get bit you don't really care if a DBWS bites you you WILL CARE.
It hurts like a :mad: well I can't use the words here! Their teeth are huge for a snake and they don't bite once they bite over and over actually tearing you a bit when they do. In essense you DON'T want to get bit, you do get your heart rate up and over all they preform a lot like a ticked ratter or copperhead in speed, striking style and movement.
Still not a true substitute for the orginal but the best thing I can think of to put real fear in you while dealing with a snake that can't kill you.
Like I said black racers are a lot in movement like cobras and mambas but they don't really hurt you, a water snake might make you head to the ER for stitches, :taz:
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Re: Beginning Hots
Excellent points Jack. I have failed both times when I have caught them, to get some pics of the yellow bellied water snakes that love to live in my pond. They like to flatten their head like a hog, and almost appear to be a cottonmouth at quick glance. At least the two I caught were 4.5 feet plus, and were easier to handle because of their weight, like you mention. However, they have some teeth that you wouldn't want to brush bare handed.
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Re: Beginning Hots
Tim I would love to see some shots of those yellow belly snakes if you get another chance. I really like water snakes, they are cool in their own way.
I have found most of them to be on the mean side. The banded water snakes I caught as a kid in flordia were generly not too bad if you got them young. The northern bandeds up in PA were about the same.
For everything else I have personaly dealt with I have found if it swims it bites!
I figure it is a lot like why if a tree boa bites you it sucks. They have long teeth to get through feathers so they can eat birds. Water snakes eat, frogs, fish, tadpoles, salamenders, etc. All are squirmy, slimy and slippery and since they have no fangs or venom I guess they need those fricken nasty chompers to hold on.
I also agree that this has been an awesome thred, I have learned a lot both in new facts and just in how others think, :rockon:
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Re: Beginning Hots
I live in Washington state and I am going to look for rattlesnakes this summer in the mountains. i have looked before but it seems like if you are looking for them they are hard to find and the people that dont want to see them always see them. i have found alot of bull snakes though, and those things are mean! i practice with my hook on them, i hope that rattlers are not as mean as those things. :) another thing that i hear all the time is that people find rattlers on there property and just kill them on the spot! I was thinking about putting my cell number on a public board and they can call me to come get the rattler. they are dissapearing around here and that is pretty sad. :(
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Re: Beginning Hots
PLEASE find a local hot keeper to learn from. Know the laws (not saying you dont.) Just know what your doing befor working with them by yourself.
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Re: Beginning Hots
Quote:
Originally Posted by PJ FF
PLEASE find a local hot keeper to learn from. Know the laws (not saying you dont.) Just know what your doing befor working with them by yourself.
I know the state laws and i have the number of a herpatologist in my area and i will call him shortly. thanks though.
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Re: Beginning Hots
Okay, thats the way to go. Get some experience befor going and doing removals.
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