Why are so many breeding giants?

My apologies for hijacking April's photo thread. Here was my question:

Not trying to be controversial but I just have to ask, why is anyone breeding Anacondas? What is the market for a snake that grows that big? I have the same question about Retics, Rocks and Burms. Especially after living in Florida and seeing that the Everglades area has become inundated with snakes that just got too big and people just dropped off. I don't get it and I would love someone to explain it to me.

J

I don't think that the people who breed giants (NERD, Bob Clark, among others) are in any way liable for the irresponsible actions of other people who keep them, such as a keeper in FL who releases a large python or boa. The reason why stuff like that happens is simple: ignorance. Either ignorance towards the kind of animal they are buying at the start or ignorance to the extent of something like, "well, its ok, I'll just release it when it gets too big for me to handle."

There are those out there that responsibly keep some of the giant species. There are a few out there who regularly attempt to ruin it for the rest.

Listen, I would have the same question for people who breed Pit Bulls. Yes its different but in many ways the same. Pit Bulls, whether trained to be agressive or not, as they mature tend to develop a more agressive streak than say, a poodle. There is a reason so many Pit Bulls end up in shelters and are euthanized. With the giant snakes, they are sold to people, who are many times not informed about how big they get. Clearly, the average snake owner is not going to have the means or ability to own a giant snake and provide care for its entire life. So getting back to my question, why are so many people breeding them? Did any of that make sense? :)

I've met some mean poodles in my time:rolleyes: Poodles are smaller and able to do less damage then say a pit bull. Raised right, Pit Bulls can be wonderful family pets.

-Crissy

Why do you think they breed giant snakes. There is a market for them. If there was no market for them, then no one would continue to breed them.

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Originally Posted by lurch

Why do you think they breed giant snakes. There is a market for them. If there was no market for them, then no one would continue to breed them.

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Simple, true.

"Why" is kind of a useless question here, I believe. I don't mean that to imply that you don't have valid opinions on the matter...but the "why" of it doesn't matter, does it? Some people do it because there is a market for it, as has already been pointed out. Some people genuinely love these animals and breed them for the sheer challenge and joy of it. Some may see it as some sort of conservation effort. Different breeders are going to have different reasons and motivations.


The real question, perhaps, should be: How can we make sure that all giant snakes in the pet-trade end up in the hands of responsible, educated owners? No easy answer for that one, I'm afraid.

A better question is why are so many people buying giant pythons? ;)

Just wondering....What do you consider a giant snake?

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

A better question is why are so many people buying giant pythons? ;)

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I think a lot of the customers don't know they're giant pythons when they buy them, or at least don't know what is needed to care for them when they turn into giants.

I think people dont know the care requirements or size they will get to. I think the people breeding them take advantage of it. Maybe the real question IS how can it be regulated? I consider giants to be rocks, retics, burms and anacondas.

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Originally Posted by jglass38

I think people dont know the care requirements or size they will get to.

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98% of the people how buy ANY reptile don't know the care requirements or size. I'd bet 75% or reptile purchases are impulse purchases. If most people realized that they'd have to spend $200-500 to set up proper caging for a $70 BP or Boa, they'd never buy one.

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Originally Posted by jglass38

I think the people breeding them take advantage of it.

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I'm sure there are cases where that's true, but the majority of responsible breeders aren't. I just bought two reticulated pythons, the breeder I bought them from wouldn't sell them to me until she was satisfied that I understood what I was getting into. No reputable breeder wants his/her product getting into the hands of someone who won't treat them responsibly, they have too much to lose.

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Maybe the real question IS how can it be regulated?

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Easy, call you state legislators, and ask them to pass a law banning the ownership of "giant snakes" in your state, and once that pandora's box is opened, they'll ban the sale of any constrictor, period, because they won't know, nor care about, the difference. They'll just write a law banning "constrictors or other dangerous reptiles", and you won't even be able to own a ratsnake. Look at what just happened in NYC.

First off, I doubt if you call Bob Clark to purchase a Retic that he spends even a minute asking you whether you understand the requirements and size. I could be wrong (its happened before)

As far as NYC, all they have banned is large boids (just as far as snakes go. I dont know the law as it relates to llizards or amphibians). The original law banned all members of the boidae family but I believe (and correct me if I'm wrong) that it was then amended to just include the largest members of the family.

Listen, I could care less what people buy. I am not the protector of all things living. I do believe there is a happy medium somewhere out there between selling baby burms to 15 yr olds and outright banning of the large constrictors. That said, I don't own any large snakes (other than my BCI) and have no interest in owning one. Why take up all that space that could be dedicated to more Balls!

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Originally Posted by jglass38

The original law banned all members of the boidae family.

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Exactly

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Listen, I could care less what people buy. I am not the protector of all things living. I do believe there is a happy medium somewhere out there between selling baby burms to 15 yr olds and outright banning of the large constrictors. That said, I don't own any large snakes (other than my BCI) and have no interest in owning one. Why take up all that space that could be dedicated to more Balls!

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in other words, as long as they don't mess with BPs, you don't care what they ban or outlaw.

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Originally Posted by monkeywrench133

Exactly

So they did amend the law?

in other words, as long as they don't mess with BPs, you don't care what they ban or outlaw.

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I think maybe you should reread what I said. I didn't say ANYTHING close to that. Cmon now...

Let's breathe deep and easy folks.

There's really no reason this should devolve into a contentious thread.

I'd like to say a couple of things.

First.. I've met a lot more nasty poodles than pits.. and I'm a dog groomer, I see a LOT of dogs. Pits are some of the sweetest dogs they are. They were bred to be DOG aggressive, not people aggressive. In the 1800s when dog fighting was more popular, any dog that exhibited human aggression was culled.

Enough of that. lol

Yellow anacondas are not the same as green anacondas. My male is likely full grown at 6.5'. Females can grow 10-12'.. not much bigger than a large BCI!

I am passionate about the larger species. I love them.. they to me are awe inspiring and are well worth the space they take up. (why have 10 BPs when you can have a burm? ;) )

Sorry Smulkin, as a responsible owner of both giant snakes and pit bulls, maybe I took this thread a little too personally.

Dogs are way more dangerous than snakes. Not my point and probably shouldn't have mentioned it.

I dont mind people taking things personally, we should all be so passionate about our animals! What I do mind is twisting what I say to make a point.

No need to apologize - I wasn't directing my comment at particulars :)

It's easy to take things personally . . what with all of us being persons and all that jazz.

(<--- unabashed AfRock owner)

Some people are always going to be irresponsible about things.. weather it is driving their car, abusing their dog, or buying a snake species they are not ready for. That alone is no reason to ban the ownership, or right to have these things.

Another side note is that male green anacondas are MUCH smaller than females.. average length is 8-10'.

Just for your own edification, I never said they should be banned.

April, I know you do a wonderful job with all your snakes!

I know you didn't say that.. I'm just getting on my soapbox because the banning of my favorite animals is something that weighs heavily on my poor worry-prone mind.

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

A better question is why are so many people buying giant pythons? ;)

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Because no other snake looks like them. For example, Rick really likes "high yellow" albino burms...because no other snake looks like them. I asked him if a high contrast albino bp would satiate his desire for an albino and he said that they didn't do much for him - but that really yellow burm, yummy. But he knows how big they get and doesn't want a snake that big...

So, to all the breeders working on dwarf burms, hurry up and make pretty yellow albinos, would ya, so I can buy my baby the snakey he wants! =)

You could get him a dwarf albino Reticulated, maybe even albino Tiger. Those are sooooooooooooo cool!

The dwarf retics are hot. Are they proven yet to stay smaller?

Rick doesn't like dwarf tics...yellow dwarf albino burm or nuffin'...

Yes, dwarf retics DO stay smaller.. a lot smaller! Especially super dwarfs.

There is NOTHING like a lavender albino retic in my book.. *droool*

They are gorgeous. I'd prefer a lavender albino BP myself :)

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Originally Posted by Shelby

I'd like to say a couple of things.

First.. I've met a lot more nasty poodles than pits.. and I'm a dog groomer, I see a LOT of dogs. Pits are some of the sweetest dogs they are. They were bred to be DOG aggressive, not people aggressive. In the 1800s when dog fighting was more popular, any dog that exhibited human aggression was culled.
)

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I can say pits are some of the sweetest dogs I have ever come across.......

but they were NOT bred for fighting other dogs, they were originally bred for herding type work with cattle. They were bred to be a working dog by day with their farmer/s and a nice family dog who was good with children/family by night and for protection. NOT FIGHTING!!! It is exactly that type of wrong info that gives them the bad name a pit carries.

Can you show me a site that says they were bred for dog to dog aggression? Or fighting? Pit fighting was brought on by some loser who was bored and figured it was a good way to make money on those who lost bets and entertainment to those who could find it no other way, with no thought or care about the original intention of the breed. If you look at the pit bulls history, you will find that what I am telling you is what they were for originally. In shows, they are shown in the working class arena.

I want a dwarf retic soooo baaaaaaad . . . .


"inevitable"

Yeah, but have you seen the BLACK retics' Mike Wilbanks has?????? They're incredible!

Jeanne - I got my info from a pit bull resource website. I don't have the link saved anymore.. I had never heard of them being used as cattle dogs.

Anyway.. at least at a later point in their breeding, they were bred as pit dogs.

EDIT - Jeanne, I am re-reading this stuff, and YES I do remember now reading about them being used by butchers to help control bulls. Faulty memory, what can I say. heh

Honestly guys.. is this not gorgeous? http://www1.kwic.com/~retic1/Snake_Images/25_QT.jpg

oooooooooooooo...................Lavender phase albino..................I want one

Woooooah.

Purple Haze much?

That snake would make Jimi jealous!

Whoa is right...looks like someone went crazy with the Photoshop color balance....=)

Hey all,
You knew I would stumble upon this eventually.
One quick thing
Pit Bulls were Pitted against Bulls for sport hense the name.
Good dogs, In all my vet teching and rescue rescourcing I still stand by a pit over a poodle any day.
Just my 2 cents on pits and poodles.
I'm sure I'll write something soon about big snake ownership, you know I always have alot to say about that issue....
It soon shall come
Rusty

Well let it never be said I don't like a good debate LOL.

Do I want giants banned? Nope. Not because I want to own one, I might one day, I might not, I'd like that choice to be allowed. Do I think they should be bred and sold willy nilly by anyone to anyone. Nope.

Example: Our local pet shop got in 3 baby burms awhile back. Two have sold. I know that most of the employees in that pet shop have zip personal experience with an adult burmese python. I know they do not provide caresheets or post forum addresses to encourage customers to educate themselves. Do I think that just anybody came in with the cash in hand ($250.00 btw) and nabbed a baby burm...you bet your butt I do. That worries me folks.

It worries me because when that snake is "too big" what happens to it. Go check Mid-Michigan Reptile Rescue and see just how fast they rehome the giants....very sad. Your burm or retic got "too big"! Just what in holy hades did you expect it to get? It worries me because I don't want your burmese loose in my backyard because you haven't a clue how to securely house a large snake. I don't want your retic dead because you bought it from somebody who didn't care if you knew squat about it's care or you didn't realize that geeze a giant snake costs just a bit to feed! I don't want to lose the right to own a giant or any constrictor for that matter, because the doofus down the road had $250.00, messed it all up and the local law makers have now freaked out totally.

I don't want bans on larger snakes. I do think licensing or some sort of regulation might be in order (whether that be for the new owner, for the seller or both) but unfortunately once the government, at any level, gets involved, it just tends to get stupid. Wish I knew the answer that would make sense for people and for the giant snakes.

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Listen, I would have the same question for people who breed Pit Bulls.

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this is the perfect sentiment and captures the essence of this thread. If there weren't people who wanted them they wouldn't be breed. but, very unfortunatly, the people who buy them sometimes do so for the wrong reasons and with poor education on the species. I would love to one day own my own giant but I know that I could not support one right now. I have neither the space nor the means to do so. the people who release these beautiful creatures want them only for shock value and to be able to say the have/had one. it takes a special kind of person to love any kind of reptile and especially a snake.

:soapbx: Ok, here I go as well... For starters, I agree with Jo. There should be a burden of resposibility on someone for buying a giant without researching their needs. There should be a burden of responsibilty on someone who buys a giant and who eventually releases them into the neighborhood or where ever. And finally there should be a burden of responsibility on the seller who doesn't warn and try to educate a potential buyer of the risks and duties involved in keeping a giant. But as Jo has stated already, when the gov't gets involved is when it's all going to go down the toilet. We would, most likely, be lucky after then to be able to own a grass snake... Much less something originally from "wild" Africa! The Government doesn't care that not all snakes are aggressive or that not all snakes are extremely large. They seem to feel the same way as what appears to me to be the general public who say things like "a snake is a snake" or "the only good snake is a dead one". Without ever giving snakes of any species a chance...


Jamie- I honestly look forward to your posts, but I must say that this one surprises me. I don't know if you've just not had very much experience with pit bulls or perhaps you've had a bad experience. But either way I hope you will attempt to get to know them better. The pit bull is a very loving and devoted breed. Perfectly content to lie down with their owner after a hard day at work, play all hours of the day and night, or get ear-tugged, tail-tugged, and ridden by toddlers! I know this to be a fact because I and my family have raised pits for 10 or 15 years. My 6 year-old daughter loved my last pit, and the only reason I don't have him anymore is because I'm renting a house and they wouldn't let me keep a dog his size in the house and I couldn't just lock him up outside. So, I let my brother have him. And now he also has 2 more that he just got as pups, plus his wife is expecting a son in about a month! And he keeps telling me that all these people are saying, "You've got to get rid of that pit bull before the baby's born or it will hurt him." But that is just not the case! In 10+ years of breeding and raising pit bulls I have never had any dog make the slightest aggressive move toward me or any of my family, friends, neighbors, mail people, meter readers, house guests, you name it!! Most of the people who've purchased them from us have kept in touch with us (per our request) about the raising and temperment of their pits and not one person has ever had a problem with aggression to date. VERY long story short... My wife has a Pom-a-Poo (Pomeranian/Poodle) now, and she's much more aggressive than any of our pits ever were. Although I don't like to generalize any breed, because I've seen some poodles who were just little curly-haired dolls, too.

It's like we are with herps, when someone generalizes them with "oh they're gross", or slimy, or whatever false attributes people tack on (and I'm from Alabama so believe me, I've heard them all LOL), it just gets me irritated at their closed-minded-ness. I think that last one was a word!

Thanks for letting me rant folks!
:2cent:

Well said Jeremy. The sad thing for Michigan and northern Ohio is that we see a lot of what seem to be referred to as "detroit bred" pits. These pit bulls are specifically bred for fighting, used for fighting and encouraged to be as anti-social and dangerous as possible. Why? So some guy (sorry but most involved are males) can get his self-esteem boost from watching two dogs rip each other apart (and make some major cash in the process). Pretty sad when to be a man you have to make an animal suffer and cause an entire breed to get a bad name. Very sad that in this area anyways it's just not smart to buy a pit bull because of this issue with "detroit bred" ones.

I grew up with German Shepherds, many on this forum have GSD's. I know from animal control officers though that their reputation as biters is high. We also had a daschund at the same time as the big male Shepherds. Guess who was the biter and had to be constantly monitored around small kids....it sure wasn't those big male dogs...it was that little, snitzy female doxie.

I think in the end with dog breeds, just as much as with any herp, you have to know what you are buying, be responsible to yourself, your family and your community in how you handle what you are buying and be the thinking human being you are supposed to be, not some ego driven doofus who thinks a mean pitbull or a giant snake will make you more than you are (and now I'll get off my :soapbx: LOL)