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  • 03-02-2006, 09:50 PM
    JLC
    A "Just Curious" question about incubation
    I'm just wondering how often anyone allows their BP's to incubate the eggs naturally? Does anyone do this? Besides the desire to "give the female a break" are there specific reasons why removing the eggs and placing them in an artificial incubator is the better choice?
  • 03-02-2006, 10:17 PM
    jglass38
    Re: A "Just Curious" question about incubation
    Better control of temps/humidity in an incubator = better chance of success. Of course you mentioned the 2 more months of no feed for the mother with maternal incubation. Not sure if there are more but those 2 alone would make artifical incubation the right choice.
  • 03-02-2006, 10:27 PM
    Adam_Wysocki
    Re: A "Just Curious" question about incubation
    Here's my $.02 for what it's worth ...

    I use an incubator ... always have and always will.

    With the husbandry of any animal when making decisions about their care, you have to ask yourself what the pros and cons are of any choice you make for that animal.

    Assuming that any person can have equal success manually incubating a clutch of eggs or maternally incubating a clutch of eggs as far as hatch rate goes ... what are the benefits of taking the eggs vs. letting mom do it.

    For manual incubation (taking the eggs), I can think of several benefits ...

    1. Health of the female ... getting a female warm and eating again after a long season of breeding is paramount to their overall physical health. Even though many people have very healthy females after maternal incubation, if all other things are equal then why would you want to wait? Wouldn't you want the female to start eating again sooner rather than later?

    2. Stress ... All captive ball pythons are under stress to some degree. It is also well known that stress in ball pythons has a direct influence over an animals health. Females that are sitting on a clutch of eggs are definitely under a higher state of stress than a female that has had her eggs taken. As a care giver, my goal is to reduce the animals stress as much as possible and I personally feel that taking a females eggs helps her to become "less stressed".

    3. Cleanliness ... I am a NUT about cleaning cages. Every single cage in my shop gets washed every single week ... no exceptions. I could not imagine a cage that has gone through 60+ days of ball python urine. I would go nuts not being able to take the female and the eggs out to clean!!

    As far as benefits for maternal incubation??? I can't think of a single one.

    Of course this whole deal is assuming that any person would have equal success hatching a clutch of eggs with maternal or manual incubation. I guess if you were a cheap ba$tage and didn't want to fork out a couple of dollars for an incubator and some vermiculite ... or you were a total idiot that couldn't put a clutch of eggs in a box for 60 days without screwing things up then maternal incubation might be right for you .... but for me, the benefits to my precious females are far to great with manual incubation to ever change my mind. ;)

    -adam
  • 03-03-2006, 12:06 AM
    JLC
    Re: A "Just Curious" question about incubation
    Thank you very much for taking the time to answer so thoughtfully and thoroughly!
  • 03-03-2006, 01:22 AM
    Aric
    Re: A "Just Curious" question about incubation
    I know there was a artical in a recent issue of Reptiles about breeding. I belive it was written by Bob Clark. You should check it out, it has alot about Maternal and Manual incubation.
  • 03-03-2006, 10:30 PM
    Adam_Wysocki
    Re: A "Just Curious" question about incubation
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by worldcupkeeper
    I know there was a artical in a recent issue of Reptiles about breeding. I belive it was written by Bob Clark. You should check it out, it has alot about Maternal and Manual incubation.

    http://www.animalnetwork.com/Reptile...obtn=&cid=3702

    It's a decent article ... no real bias one way or the other, but if you've ever been too or seen pictures of Bobs facility, you know that he has big ole incubators. ;)

    My favorite part of the article is this little gem right her from the master of boids himself ...

    "I like the thermostats manufactured by Helix." - Bob Clark

    I have to agree there! ;)

    -adam
  • 03-03-2006, 10:33 PM
    jglass38
    Re: A "Just Curious" question about incubation
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
    http://www.animalnetwork.com/Reptile...obtn=&cid=3702

    It's a decent article ... no real bias one way or the other, but if you've ever been too or seen pictures of Bobs facility, you know that he has big ole incubators. ;)

    My favorite part of the article is this little gem right her from the master of boids himself ...

    "I like the thermostats manufactured by Helix." - Bob Clark

    I have to agree there! ;)

    -adam

    You are going to be the TV spokesman for them someday! :) Are they sending you any free ones yet!? hehe
  • 03-03-2006, 10:34 PM
    JLC
    Re: A "Just Curious" question about incubation
    I read that article just a little while ago....it's very interesting. I'm not sure I will ever get tired of reading stuff from the folks who have been doing this for decades! (And a few folks who've been doing it for just a few years. ;) )
  • 03-03-2006, 10:38 PM
    Adam_Wysocki
    Re: A "Just Curious" question about incubation
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jglass38
    You are going to be the TV spokesman for them someday! :) Are they sending you any free ones yet!? hehe

    I WISH!! ... LOL ... With as many as I order each year as I grow the biz you'd think they kick me a freebie!! ... LOL ... Doesn't matter, either way I'm a loyal Helix fan til the day I die! ;)

    BTW - I would kick A$$ on TV! :D:D:D :bounce:

    -adam
  • 03-03-2006, 10:41 PM
    jglass38
    Re: A "Just Curious" question about incubation
    You stick with that TV dream my friend. I have a face for radio! (or internet message boards!) hah

    Hey, does a Helix come with Freedom Breeders? How does their heat work? I want to start ordering by the level and I am not sure what to get. Would I get the first level with casters and heat to start out?
  • 03-03-2006, 11:06 PM
    Adam_Wysocki
    Re: A "Just Curious" question about incubation
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jglass38
    Hey, does a Helix come with Freedom Breeders? How does their heat work? I want to start ordering by the level and I am not sure what to get. Would I get the first level with casters and heat to start out?

    The "complete" racks come with Rancos (they're cheap) ... but I always have them keep them and they credit me the cost ... I usually have some extras (heat panels, power strip, hides, etc) when I buy my racks so it goes towards those.

    The FB heat panels are basically an aluminum (I think) channel with 3" heat tape attached underneath. It attaches under the tubs with velcro in the rear. If you have a single level you'll need at least a base frame to support the heat panel.

    For a level or two, I wouldn't get casters and have it sit on the floor. I'd build some type of base or put it up on a table higher up where room temps are warmer.

    If you do have to have it on the floor, I always order an extra 3" heat panel for my bottom levels to compensate for differences between floor temps and temps higher up in the room. I also add a sheet of 1/2" rigid foam board under the base frame.

    Call and talk to Jesse (sale guy) at Freedom Breeder ... He is AWESOME! ... Probably the best customer service in the entire herp industry ... even if you just have questions, he knows it all and can hook you up! ;)

    -adam
  • 03-03-2006, 11:09 PM
    jglass38
    Re: A "Just Curious" question about incubation
    Now how did I know that you would have the answers!? Thanks man..I will call him next week. They are so reasonable for the level that I cant figure why people buy any other rack! I'm kickin my own *** for buying these APs that I just dislike immensely
  • 03-04-2006, 07:28 AM
    frankykeno
    Re: A "Just Curious" question about incubation
    You know Adam I just assumed that Helix was the way to go since all you bigger breeders use them but they must be awfully expensive. Imagine my surprise to find them so reasonably priced! Hmmm what is it they say about "assume" LOL.

    It'll be Helix all the way for us!

    ~~Jo~~
  • 03-04-2006, 11:36 AM
    xdeus
    Re: A "Just Curious" question about incubation
    Have you checked out the new Vision racks? At first I thought they looked a little flimsy, but they seem to have some nice design attributes. Plus, a lot of people have been giving them great reviews including Greg Graziani. I'm not sure if he's getting a kickback from them :P , but the rack might be somethiing to consider.
  • 03-04-2006, 12:13 PM
    Adam_Wysocki
    Re: A "Just Curious" question about incubation
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by xdeus
    Have you checked out the new Vision racks? At first I thought they looked a little flimsy, but they seem to have some nice design attributes. Plus, a lot of people have been giving them great reviews including Greg Graziani. I'm not sure if he's getting a kickback from them :P , but the rack might be somethiing to consider.

    Saw them in Daytona ... I wasn't really impressed.

    I wasn't a big fan of the heating ... I don't like heat rope and would rather use 3" flex watt than the larger flexwatt "pads" they are selling.

    The single tower design wastes some space when you start using multiple unites. I can fit 30 Freedom Breeder boxes in less space than 30 Vision boxes and to me that is very important.

    The Vision racks are very light ... they feel like they can tip over if your not careful ... I personally like being able to climb on my Freedom Breeder racks ... makes peeking into the top boxes and cleaning the top of the rack very convenient.

    I hate the plastic top ... I switched from melamine racks to Freedom Breeder because I LOVE the open air design. I think over the years keeping these animals the number one thing that I learned is the importance of good air flow in relation to feeding and breeding behavior. For me, the more fresh air I can move in and out of a snakes enclosure, the better.

    I read Gregs review and the biggest benefit that I got was that the Vision racks can use different tubs. I just don't see how this is a problem. I have enough extra boxes for my Freedom Breeders that I'm really not worried about by tubs not being available ... and at some point, upgrading equipment is just an expense of doing business.

    I don't have anything against Vision racks, I know some people using them and they are doing well with them ... I just like what I like and truly believe that if you’re going to keep snakes in numbers and you want the absolute best ... Freedom Breeder is where it's at. ;)

    -adam
  • 03-04-2006, 12:38 PM
    xdeus
    Re: A "Just Curious" question about incubation
    Thanks for the review, Adam. I like the idea of the heat rope as far as being able to adjust the heat to each individual shelf, but I'm still not too keen on the heat rope itself. Have you had a chance to check out the ARS Caging that have been advertising on KS? It seems like they're very similar to Freedom, but with a couple other design tweaks like the built in water bowl option and they're quite a bit cheaper.
  • 03-04-2006, 12:44 PM
    Adam_Wysocki
    Re: A "Just Curious" question about incubation
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by xdeus
    Thanks for the review, Adam. I like the idea of the heat rope as far as being able to adjust the heat to each individual shelf, but I'm still not too keen on the heat rope itself. Have you had a chance to check out the ARS Caging that have been advertising on KS? It seems like they're very similar to Freedom, but with a couple other design tweaks like the built in water bowl option and they're quite a bit cheaper.

    The ARS caging still isn't "open air" ... it's still just a slightly perforated top.

    Also, I can say from experience, the built in water bowl thing $UCKS! ... When snake doo doo gets caked into the crevice around the base it takes FOREVER to clean out ... and when I paying people to clean my cages, I need them to get it done faster rather than longer.

    I actually tested gluing PVC couplers into CB70 boxes at one point and it's much faster to clean a tub and water bowl separately than when it's all one piece.

    As far as the cost ... There are only so many deductions that you can take year over year ... so I can send the money to the government or I can send it to Freedom Breeder ... I think the value behind what you get with Freedom Breeder racks definitely justifies the cost.

    -adam
  • 03-04-2006, 12:55 PM
    xdeus
    Re: A "Just Curious" question about incubation
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
    Also, I can say from experience, the built in water bowl thing $UCKS! ... When snake doo doo gets caked into the crevice around the base it takes As

    I was wondering about that. Maybe they can teflon coat the whole thing? :) Besides, think of the hours of entertainment that would be had by watching your Balls try to move around on a teflon surface. :bounce:

    Still, I like the idea of competition. I think if they open up the shelves some more, they would give FB a run for their money. I don't have anything against Freedom, but with competition comes innovation.
  • 03-25-2006, 05:47 PM
    jglass38
    Re: A "Just Curious" question about incubation
    I just looked at the ARS and they are definitely interesting looking. They actually sell them without the cupholder as well (looks like a standard cb70 tub).
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