Can anyone explain Triples to me?

I was reading somewhere about genetics.... and now im more confused than ever about a few things


I see alot of 2x2 punnet squares, but then when talking about double and triple the punnet squares get bigger.... does this mean that these triples carry around 3x as many genes, or just that they have a wider variety?

I understand that a Het for albino carries a normal gene and an albinism gene, and that it can pass on one or the other.... but I dont get how a snake could also then carry genes for normal, albino, AND piebald... does anyone have a good explanation that i could understand ) I already went to one website that explained it out, and how a triple homozygous for 3 different traits could be used to produce alot of different stuff..

ok maybe im just tired, i will try this again tommorrow.

Normal, piebald and albino would be a double het, not triple het. NERD has the best explanation, but you do have to have some patience and time to read through it all. I'd recommend starting with Introduction to Genetics and work your way through. Links to Heterozygous, Double Het, etc are at the end of each section.

So lets say you cross a homozygous albino x homozygous hypo, the resulting offspring would be 100% double hets for hypo and albino. Now, lets raise up one of the offsping and cross it with a homozygous pied. You would then have 100% pied hets that are also 50% poss double het for albino and hypo. After that, I'm not sure how you'd prove a true "triple het."

the rabbit hole gets deeper....

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

So lets say you cross a homozygous albino x homozygous hypo, the resulting offspring would be 100% double hets for hypo and albino. Now, lets raise up one of the offsping and cross it with a homozygous pied. You would then have 100% pied hets that are also 50% poss double het for albino and hypo. After that, I'm not sure how you'd prove a true "triple het."

the rabbit hole gets deeper....

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Well, if you breed your Possible Triple Het to a known het or homozygous and they produce visible morph babies for each of those three traits. So...you breed your PTH to an albino, a hypo and a pied (assuming your PTH is male!) and if you get some of those babies in each clutch...then you have a definite Triple Het. It's a huge roll of the dice and quite possible that even though the het genes are present, they might not "take" in one or more of those clutches...so it may take a mating season or two, at least, to prove it out.

Obviously Triple Het combos will be pretty rare and amazingly expensive!

There may be a simpler way to prove them out, but that is one method that comes to mind when I think of it.

Lol, I was thinking triplets. Check out this link on Bob Clark's Picture forums to tiger retic triplets. Pretty amazing; I hope all 3 make it!

Does anyone know the rarity of multiples in an egg? I would guess that twins are pretty rare and generally more "runt-y"? Anyone heard of many triplets? Just curious. =)

We were talking genetics.

Any takers on an efficient way to prove a triple het?

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

We were talking genetics.

Any takers on an efficient way to prove a triple het?

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It's like DH's plus one more gene. I've been giving this some thought for a few months now. It's like JLC mentioned, breed the PTH to each morph and hope the genes prove out. It's just a time consuming process from what I am gathering here (if you don't have the stock). I would think that in either 18 months (male) or 24+ months (female) one could prove this out if there are 2 of each morphs in stock for dinking? Does that make sense? I hope so..LOL:)

Forgot to say: allow that much time for that generation to reach breeding size.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Any takers on an efficient way to prove a triple het?

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PROVING a TH? Wow... Seems like it would take some time... MAKING a triple het? Like was mentioned earlier... except for SURE making a TH:

1.) 1st Homozygous x 2nd Homozygous = 100% DH's
2.) DH x DH = 1/16 Double Homozygous
3.) Double Homozygous x 3rd Homozygous = 100% Triple Hets!

Granted... these are not possibles... but guaranteed triples..

Also.. like was mentioned earlier... I would think the easiest... or only way (besides taking a stab at PTH x PTH) would be breeding a PTH male to homozygous females of all three morphs.... get enough eggs in all three clutches, and you should be able to prove some genes out.

Trips and Quads will be really cool as soon as someone gets around to doing them! lol (LOTS AND LOTS of time)

edited out.

Have you taken a look at NERD's genetics page? Their double recessive genetics page really goes into this quite well..

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Originally Posted by ddbjdealer

Have you taken a look at NERD's genetics page? Their double recessive genetics page really goes into this quite well..

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yeah, i posted this out before i finally got a grasp on it :) thanks

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

does this mean that these triples carry around 3x as many genes, or just that they have a wider variety?

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When looking at those punnet squares, you are only concerned about those particular genes. (No extra chromosomes/genes popping up, at least none that I'm aware of) The thing is that the other genes are considered 'normal' so of no interest. When you are interested in more than one gene, then you have more variables and a greater amount of combinations are possible, hence the ever increasing punnet square. :D

man all this triple/quad stuff hurts the brain. i just think like this,
get a visual morph you like
find another morph you think will look good with it
breed the two together
raise the babies
breed the babies
keep breeding until you see a diffrent morph come out!

vaughn

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Originally Posted by kavmon

man all this triple/quad stuff hurts the brain. i just think like this,
get a visual morph you like
find another morph you think will look good with it
breed the two together
raise the babies
breed the babies
keep breeding until you see a diffrent morph come out!

vaughn

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Now that Im finally understanding this stuff I might make a website that lets you enter the genetics of the male and female and have it dynamically create a punnet square with the possibilities, as well as a database containing all of the known combinations with names.

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

Now that Im finally understanding this stuff I might make a website that lets you enter the genetics of the male and female and have it dynamically create a punnet square with the possibilities, as well as a database containing all of the known combinations with names.

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http://www.geneticswizard.com/ oops... looks like it's already been done. :) It's a pretty cool aplet... and there's a downloadable program that you can add new genes and new alles and all kinds of stuff. Kinda nifty..... Freeware RULES!

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Originally Posted by ddbjdealer

http://www.geneticswizard.com/ oops... looks like it's already been done. :) It's a pretty cool aplet... and there's a downloadable program that you can add new genes and new alles and all kinds of stuff. Kinda nifty..... Freeware RULES!

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the internet is always one step ahead of me :)

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

the internet is always one step ahead of me :)

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LOL - Yup... It'll do your triple/quad questions for you... but the results are a bit confusing... and it's debateable if it's accurate or not. :)

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Originally Posted by ddbjdealer

LOL - Yup... It'll do your triple/quad questions for you... but the results are a bit confusing... and it's debateable if it's accurate or not. :)

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Doesnt look too debatable to me...looks like an awesome tool.....maybe I am missing something..but it looks to me like it gives the theoritical probablities of each genotype exactly......there just happens to be a lot of genotypes when you cross a triple het x triple het. or a quad het x quad het

IF you drew out the square they would be huge.......a trip het x triple het would require a an 8 x 8 square (the number of possible gamete comboinations is 2^n where n is the number of gene pairs--For a triple het, n=3 so 2^3=8)

For a quad het x quad het you'd need a 16 x 16 square.

Has anyone actually introduced an interesting triple recessive morph to the market?

Another useful in genetics is the pedigree chart.....these are probably more useful in many ways than punnet squares for organism that dont produce tons of offspring like humans, mice, or balls.....

A free online pedigree drawing program is available at http://www.progeny2000.com/students/

I've used it a lot to make genetics problems for students.....it takes a little time to get use too and the export functions are a little cumbersome....but it works...

I am taking Biology in college now and this is the best explanation that I can give.....
If you have double hets and bread them together you will come out with 9 different possible reconnections of the genes (recessive), and there will be a varying degree as to which each of these reconnect. For instance if you breed a Double het ghost and albino to a double het ghost and albino you would draw the punnit square as this [AG, Ag, aG, ag] x [AG, Ag, aG, ag] because these would be the possible gene reconnections. And from there you would attemp to get the aagg through backcrossing and what not.... Now you would want to take the double homozygous and breed it to a homozygous of another gene, say pied, and from there you would come up with 100% triple hets. Now it gets more complicated because you would want to cross the triple hets together so your Punnit square would be this [PAG, PAg, PaG, Pag, pAG, pAg, paG, pag] x [PAG, PAg, PaG, Pag, pAG, pAg, paG, pag] with 64 outcome boxes and 27 possible recombinations. 12.5% would be Trip Hets, 1.6% would be triple homozygous and 1.6% would be normal. Only 4.8% would show one recessive trait without being heterozygous for another. 18.75% would show one trait and hold one other as heterozygous. 18.75% would show one trait and be double heterozygous. 4.8% Would be double recessive without another hetero trait, and 9.375% would be double recessive with one hetero trait. 9.375% only tetero for one trait. 18.75% double hetero and 12.5 triple hetero...

I hope that i didnt mess up the math because i am doing other things while doing this. Also I am new and this class actually got me into snakes again since I used to have balls when I was younger, pre-navy. Anyways just wanting to know how people think I should start off a project with 1000-1500 dollars. I will make a new thread if you want to answer me there...
Paz