Small burm????????

I know of a male albino burm(butter cup) that is almost 6 years old and 7 feet...he is one foot around...he has been well taken care of and my question is why is he so small for his age....ive never heard of a burm only 7 feet at 6 years old...most are 7 feet within the first year or two.....now i know that every snake if differnt and they all grow at differnt speeds and will get there own legths but is it possible it is a dwarf or even the runt? Most burms reach adulthood and growing slows around age 3-4 ( i think)

well anyways any insight would be appreciated

Heres a pic of "butter cup" and no its not poo behind him its a cage decoration he decided to bury in bedding :)

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...y/107_0724.jpg

There are dwarf burms, but they are very expensive at this time.

Male burms average 10-15' and +-100lbs. How often and what is he fed? You can stunt the growth by not feeding enough, but the snake will still grow when it's fed properly again.

I know this is zero help, but that is an AWESOME looking snake!!

The funny thing is, I knew an albino burm named Buttercup.

Very pretty Burm!!

guinea pigs medium rabbits and jumbo rats every 2 weeks (not all of that at once but whatever he deiced looked tasty lol)

the guy is a friend of my hubby's and i and he has to move to a no snake zone.....so id i drive the 2 hours to pick him and his habitat up i can have him for free...(hes rich as *bleep* so he doesnt care about the loss....just wants the snake to have a good home

also the snake has been trained that before he hets handled gets tapped gently on the head with a snake hook....no tap and somethign moving in his cage means food time......in the 3 years my friend has had him hes only struck at a person once......another friend reached in to pick him up and didnt follow the tap procedure and buttercup luckily missed his arm :)

If you took him you have to be prepared for the fact that he CAN grow more. I don't know why he's small, but these snakes get huge. They have fantastic feeding responses too.. doesn't matter how tame it is, you have to be careful and prepared.

I wouldn't recommend this as a second snake anyway.. just my opinion..

I realize he would be a huge responsibility and i know how cautious i would have to be ....i understand how powerful they can be ( I WILL NEVER HANDLE THIS SNAKE ALONE!!!) not pretty getting tagged by giant burm (if he ever grows) im just so curious about whys hes so small ......i HIGHLY HIGHLY doubt its because hes underfed.......my cousin has a runt....(not a burm) the snake (i forget what kind) is normally 6-7 feet long and his like 7 years old and 3 feet....all of its brothers ans sisters are full size....so i was just wondering about possibilitys...you understand me....i have the money to feed it...the space to keep it..... knolwedege...(of general things , care etc....not experience knowledege tho)....im also willing to work with the snake to best of my ability and get help from my expert cousin if my ability proves to suck lol....i am not one to be irresponsible (ive lived on my own since i was 15, work 2 jobs go to school stay out of drugs and trouble)...i understand teh care it woudl need should it ever grow.....wow this is getting long....but yea keep the advice coming.....and please just no *it can poop like a horse and eat rabbits so dont buy it* kind of stuff.....any possitive information and help on caring and caution and etc would be highly welcomed.......all i ever hear is bad about burms and frankly im tired of it...more dogs kill people than snakes so yea

Calm down rememeber you came to this site asking for help if your cousin knows so much about keeping snake why don't you give it to your cousin, just because the snake is free means you have to take it for some reason he maybe just don't wanna pay the price to get the permit so he can keep a snake in areas that don't allow snakes. But you have to remember you asked why is this snake the size it is no more information so Shelby is just telling you the truth and she knows what she is doing with almost any snake of this size and she has alot of snakes that get as big if not bigger than a Burm. P.S. Even the President of the United States could have lived on his own at 15 and worked 4 jobs and still wont be ready for a snake of this level. Sorry just had to add that in!!

Um in not upset...so i dont think i need to calm down...i get type happy and ramble on....and my cousin just had a baby so burm isnt the best pet for him right now...and where thsi guy is moving it is a no large constrictor area whatsoever unless your a zoo..no permit etc

shelby gave me her opnion which in no way whatsoever was i mad about, all i was trying to say is that this isnt an ignornant impulse grab, and i know how many people are doing that...and listenting to myself i sound like another person all excited about a big pretty burm...i was not yelling at shelby , i value her opinion very much

i wasnt saying that since i live on my own and yada yada that should be prepared to own one...i was simply stating that im not a bratty lil kid who thinks snakes are just pretty so i shoudl get another one.....ive worked very hard and had to overcome alots things i wont ramble on about this becasue it is pointless, obviously you had an easy upbringing and i envy you

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Originally Posted by Lucifers_Mommy

ive worked very hard and had to overcome alots things i wont ramble on about this becasue it is pointless, obviously you had an easy upbringing and i envy you

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lets keep it on track please...

He wasn't going into upbringing, just the fact that the care of a burm isn't something to be taken lightly no matter how responsible one is, its all about experience with large snake husbandry.

I'm glad to see a little constructive criticism, it can keep people from making decisions they may later regret. I think its a great thing that you are thinking about doing for this gentleman, too many burms get "thrown out" when they get too large because so many don't realize how big, powerful, and expensive snakes of their size can be; but as long as you're willing to put in the hard work and funding in to properly caring for such a snake I say go for it but be cautious around even a "tame" snake of that size.

Good luck with your decision.

Jason

I'd look at this a great opportunity if I were you. I agree with everything Shelby has said, this snake may only be 7ft now, but CAN get much, much larger. However, it COULD stay this size for the rest of its life. (Conditional phrase warning!!) If it has been fed properly, and if it has been well maintained, proper temps and all, it may by a runt or natural dwarf. These things CAN happen.


I also fully agree with Jason's main point, as long as you realize the potential for this snakes growth, and the cost and responsibility that will entail, I don't see any reason not to take it.

It is a gorgeous snake, and if it is a happy, healthy full grown adult at only 7ft, then I'm jealous, I'd love to have a dwarf albino!

if i do decide to take on this snake what kind of precations should i take, he will be in the same tank and everything (10 feet by 3 feet i belive) just a differnet house....how long should i give to settle in etc.....and what are signs of a nervous /stressed snake??? what should i do and what shouldnt i?...and thanks for you input guys :)

I'd say a week to settle in. That's pretty standard. Being in the same enclosure will mitigate some stress, but he'll still need some time. Signs of stress? hissing, defensive posturing, striking, not eating. What should you do? #1 Be Patient #2 Don't Panic #3 Be persistent. Snakes respond to routines, so establish feeding, watering, handling routines and don't deviate.

Do you have any idea how often this guy was handled? If the current owner handled him often, he should make the transition fairly easily.

he was handled about 3-4 times a week and he was trianed so that a tap on the head with a snake stick means handling time, and if the cage is open and no tap its feeding time....hes only strick at a person once in the whoel times hes had him(over 3 years)when his friend just reached in and tryed to grab him with no tap.......he hasnt been handled in the last few weeks because theguy is working massive overtiem to get enogh money for the move so he hasnt had the tiem or energy (another reason why he would liek to get rid of teh snake)

Well, he'll probably be a little squirelly since he hasn't been handled as much as he's used to. But stick with the hook training! that's a good thing!

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Originally Posted by Lucifers_Mommy

all i ever hear is bad about burms and frankly im tired of it...more dogs kill people than snakes so yea

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Nothing I said was meant to be 'bad' about burms. (I have one after all) I just want to be sure you realise entirely what burm ownership means. I don't think you are irresponsible at all, I am glad you posted this thread to get advice and opinions.

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Originally Posted by ballpythonandragon

Shelby is just telling you the truth and she knows what she is doing with almost any snake of this size and she has alot of snakes that get as big if not bigger than a Burm.

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Well I wouldn't go that far. :P I have mostly baby giants, and not the biggest of the giants at that. My biggest is only over 7'.. but I do have a lot of experience around burms sized around 7-10'.

Ok enough of that.. If you decide to take the beauty, definitely invest in a good snake hook! Invaluable.. especially since this one is hook trained. Boids are often more aggressive in their cage than out. With my big, not so nice girls, I like to take the hook (be sure it's a heavy duty python hook) and hook their neck and pull their first third out of the cage before I put my hands on them. Once they realise they are coming out, they often settle down.

Of all the giant snakes, burms are the easiest to tame. Don't let the puppy dog nature catch you off guard though, it's easy to do! I was bitten by an 8' burm by committing a stupid feeding error.. the python was super tame.

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Originally Posted by Shelby

.. the python was super tame.

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Just a thought here, not picking on you Shelby.........

Tame is perhaps NOT the best word when describing a snake. I don't think snakes can be tamed in the manner most people think of, ie, with dogs.

Docile, I feel is closer to the truth. Tolerant would probably be the best word. Because really, a "tame" snake is just one that puts up with OUR crap more than others.

Just my opinion, I'll shut up now.

I agree. Poor word choice I suppose.. most people just lump the words together.

That burm had never done anything remotely aggressive before and didn't seem to care what you did with him. Let's leave it at that.

what i meant by im sick of hearing bad things about burms is the media and other forums, i posted this topic on another forum and was attacked about why would even be interested in one etc etc etc....guesse it was just a quick rant lol


the guy is giving his snake hook that he uses for "buttercup" to me as well....however im not sure if its a "heavy duty python hook" lol but ifs ist not il just buy one while im in the city

are there any other signs or nervousness you could tell me about

also what would i do if he did ever happen to tag me and not let go(heaven forbid but just incase)...i heard pouring liquor down its thorat while its clamped onto you will make it release......ripping the snake off will just make a mess of my arm so any comments about emergency situation :) i wont hanleing it alone btw

Well, there's different ways of getting a burm off of you. When I got bit, the snake didn't let go.. I was at work so I had to go in back and have the owner get it off. We tried pouring water on his face first, but that made him clamp down harder.. unfortunately the only thing we had was windex.. it did the trick, but not nice for the snake. I have heard listerine works.. any kind of alcohol is supposed to work too.

As far as unwrapping them if they're around you I have heard that starting from the tail and unwrapping that way is the easiest way to get them off.

I hope it never comes to that though. :)

I hope so to....Always good to be prepared :D

The snake was handled useally for 30 mins at a time...i was thinking it might be wise to let him settle in then once i begin handleign him keep the periods short 5-10 mins everyother day and work it up to 30 mins? just so that he gets use to me ...i dont want him out for 30 mins the first day i get home cuz they il have a big pissy burm on my hands ....not good lol

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Originally Posted by Lucifers_Mommy

more dogs kill people than snakes

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Wow, thats news to me in all my years I have yet to hear of any dog killing a human, biting yeah..but never killing. I would like to see the info you have seen that you are basing your opinion/statement off of.


And, taking into account, you are saying "snakes" as in not specifying what species/type..your statement would still be untrue due to the fact that many ppl do die a year from "hot" bites from not being able to make it to medical attention quick enough and the various reasons one would die b/c of that.

Now, if you are talking JUST burms, I have yet to hear of anyone that died due to one of those. But I have heard of a few scarey experiences from those that have tried/decided to handle alone rather than wait for someone to be there to help them with big burms.

Edit: added comment

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Originally Posted by Jeanne

Wow, thats news to me in all my years I have yet to hear of any dog killing a human, biting yeah..but never killing. I would like to see the info you have seen that you are basing your opinion/statement off of.

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I would also like to see the documented support of those facts. It would be a very interesting read. I love to read that kinda stuff...like more people die of bee stings than shark attacks..etc....Two of my favorite creatures on this planet are sharks and snakes...and both seem to get crapped on because of people's unrational fears.

The problem with the large constrictor and dog comparison is that people react alot differently to a stray dog wandering the streets and a lost 12' burm turning up in someone's back yard. Stray dogs are usually ignored by most but a runaway burm will make the evening news, increase irrational fear of snakes, and force politicians to pass laws that keep us from keeping reptiles.

I have no problem with people keeping large boids. But I do get angry with the fact that some people are irresponsible. If a large boid keeper gets injured or killed or lets their snake escape, it threatens ALL reptile keepers ability to own herps. These reckless people are making owning reptiles like owning guns. If I want to LEGALLY own a large boid in Louisiana, I have to have 500+ hours of supervised handling experience with large boids, pay for a license, have my home and the snake's enclosure inspected by the department of wildlife and fisheries, and face criminal and other legal actions if an incident were to happen. So just remember that if you keep a large boid you have a responsibilty to keep it in the proper way so that these laws do not get worse and spread to more commonly kept herps.

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Originally Posted by Jeanne

And, taking into account, you are saying "snakes" as in not specifying what species/type..your statement would still be untrue due to the fact that many ppl do die a year from "hot" bites from not being able to make it to medical attention quick enough and the various reasons one would die b/c of that.

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The number of people dying in the US due to snakes in general is very low. But one of the big reasons for people dying or becoming severly injured due to "hot" bites is the fact that they are unprepared. Alot of exotic 'hots' are kept in the US without proper planning. Some people keep hots that really do not have an effective antivenom or do not personally stock rare antivenoms....it is not like every hospital in the US has antivenom for cobra bites ;) These unprepared people are making it harder for good keepers to own these animals with all the bad publicity when they get bitten.

I certainly don't know about the statistics part of it, but I do know that dogs have killed humans. The presa canario case in San Francisco a few years ago, where a lawyer couple were keeping two for a prisoner that they had befriended (and adopted, by the way as an adult) and they killed a neighbor who was trying to get into her apartment. The female party that was caring for the dogs was the handler at the time. They went to trial for murder (or maybe manslaughter) but I don't remember the outcome.


Also, there are a few cases each year here in metro Atlanta where a pit bull has killed a child.

Now back to your regularly scheduled program! ;)

ok well i meant more people are hurt by dogs than burms.......i exageratted sorry it was such a big deal that you had to write 4 paragraphs on it....i was just frustrated at the time by what peopel on other forums were saying.......you shoudl never handle them, there viscious aggrasive , have killed people etc etc....and i know they arent all bad so i was hoping to hear some good comments

Always staying alert and avoiding the Stupid Feeding Events will be the best thing.


As a research into it I starting hopping and googling and went into the top 3 deaths by a large boid. Reading the investigations for the boy in his bed, the guy w/the chicken in the box, etc. ....they were all SFE's and/or the boid had the run of the house.

(Now personally? I would NEVER allow a critter who POOS THAT MUCH, free reign to slither around my house!! It's bad enough to be stepping on a cat hairball!!!!!! ) :bleh:

I cant belive that people actualy do that tho...let the burm,s have the run of the house with no enclosure, like do they feed them on the carpet in there living room??? like that is just askign for somethin to happen......not to mention keeping the snake healthy at room temps would be a big enough challenge

Jumping in a little late, but those dog owners were convicted....that trial caused a lot of ignorant people to put a lot of pressure on politicians to make laws again "fighting dogs". There was also a story not too much later where a "pack" of domestic dogs killed a guys poor little baby son in the HOUSE no less--they said the dogs acted just like a wolf pack :( I'm a huge dog person, so I pay attention to this kind of stuff.

On the subject at hand, I have not heard of a single large snake related death that didn't involve a pet snake getting loose or just flat out being neglected. The first one I remember hearing about was a rectic who attacked and killed his owner who was apparently not feeding him. I mean, what did he expect to happen if he didn't feed a snake that huge and strong?? What does a 28 foot snake eat? Whatever it wants =P People who allow an animal like that free run of the house IMO is just too lazy to get them a proper enclosure, or just like to show off to their friends ::shrug::

(sorry that was so long, this subject really interests me =D)

Where i live pitbulls were just recently banned.....it began with a local incident that papers headlines stated "Vicious dogs attack young boy" subheadline "Owner pitbulls turn on boy"


which was blongy.....the young boy was attacked by one of those tiny yappy vicious dogs(i forget there breed) and the pitbull was locked safley in his cage...the boy was for lack of better words tormenting the dog by pulling its hair out and kicking it and getting a lugh when the dog grollwed...eventauly the dog snapped and lunged at his face....by sayign young boy you woudl think the boy was like 5-6......wrong.....kid was 15 and damnwell knew what he was doing

everyone was upset with with peopel who own pitbulls because the media lied to get more readers.....regarless tho i hate it when people treat any animal like this .......be it a dog , snake , sugar glider w/e .....makes me angry ....amkes me more angry when peopel hate one breed because of irresonpible owners..grrrrrrrrrrrrrr

A little off topic, but this is a great discussion.

I am a firm believer in "There are no bad animals, only bad animal owners'.

And it is funny how some people will quickly sterotype you because of the animals you own like...

If you own a pit bull, you must be a drug dealing gangster that fights dogs.

OR

If you keep snakes, you are some devil worshiping psyco that uses them in rituals.

Ugh I totally understand....the media really enjoys making animals out to be these "evil" creatures when it benefits them. And you KNOW every time the dog is only like that because they've been neglected, I don't care what breed it is. It is scary that they're succeeding in banning certain dog breeds, though; when it gets to that point you never know what they'll go after next. =(

We have a local ban on pit bulls, but they really dont enforce it, there is a pit bull that lives 2 houses down from me. It is sad that they have that ban, pit bulls, if raised right with no abuse, are not mean and aggressive. In fact, I have had a few and they were AWESOME dogs. So loveable, intelligent and personable.

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Originally Posted by Jeanne

We have a local ban on pit bulls, but they really dont enforce it, there is a pit bull that lives 2 houses down from me. It is sad that they have that ban, pit bulls, if raised right with no abuse, are not mean and aggressive. In fact, I have had a few and they were AWESOME dogs. So loveable, intelligent and personable.

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The way I see it, big dogs, snakes, guns and cars are really all the same thing. I think more effort should be spent in qualifying the owners, than banning or imposing general limitations on people who own them. Of course the cost for responsible management of these things is so overwhelming that Govts find it easier to just ban them.

Spencer, the problem with putting requirements on things is that the requirements can somewhat out-if-hand. Like Louisiana's requirement of 500 hours of handling experience before you can own large boids legally. Who really has 500 free hrs and a place to get that much handling experience from a qualified individual? They have these all these laws but I can still go 5 minutes up the road to the nearest petstore and buy a burm if I really wanted to. The ENTIRE system needs to be rethought.

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

Spencer, the problem with putting requirements on things is that the requirements can somewhat out-if-hand. Like Louisiana's requirement of 500 hours of handling experience before you can own large boids legally. Who really has 500 free hrs and a place to get that much handling experience from a qualified individual? They have these all these laws but I can still go 5 minutes up the road to the nearest petstore and buy a burm if I really wanted to. The ENTIRE system needs to be rethought.

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I didn't say requirements, I used the word "qualifying" specifically. I'm well aware of bad requirements or limitations.

Requirements are cheap and easy to put in place. Truly qualifying someone is something that takes far more work, is not reproducible, and ends up allowing only the most responsible of people to take part in the given activity.

It would also leave a large share of voters angry because they are "not qualified."

I guess I see requirements and qualifications as the same thing..ha ;) LIke I said...this is a good topic. How are reptile control issues in Canada?

I think a good solution here in Louisiana would be similar to way that a person qualifies to go hunting. I have to have a Hunter's Safety Card. I had to go to several night classes (that are offered usually once every two months or so) where we reviewed how to hunt safely of both people and animals with a representative of DWF. Then we took a test. If you want to get a hunting license in Louisiana, you have to have this card. I dont see why they could not place the same restriction/qualification on large boids...a few night classes on care of reptiles, take a test, then you cant buy certain reptiles in pet stores unless you present the card. That would cut down on impulse buys and greatly reduce the number of people getting snakes that they dont know how to care for. Just an idea.

I'm hoping I read the part about hunting people wrong! lol

Canada manages to screw this up as much as most places.

Licensing is an important way to distinquish the qualified people from the unqualified people, but unfortunately the license is only as good as the process that people have to go through to get it, or the enforcement of the license.

For example, if I can't speak english here, I can get a translator to come with me to assist in the exam. The tester really has no clue what is being said between the one being tested and the translator, so frequently arrangements are made where the translator is really giving the right answers, or guiding the one being tested. Obviously quite flawed.

When I qualified for air-brakes however I was quite impressed with the process in that it was quite hard to pass without real knowlege of air-brakes.

The difference between a requirement and a qualification is that you may be required to be 16 years of age, but to be qualified you would have to possess a responsible attitude towards driving. Obviously it's a lot easier to prove you are 16 than it is to prove you are responsible.

Just to interject an opposing opinion, I don't agree that lisencing is the answer. I'm not against the intention, but when you start getting into testing people so they can have the "right" to own a living creature...I'm one of those paranoid "government stays out of my business" people I guess. Also, the way I see it, guns were designed with the express purpose of killing, period. However, a dog or a snake, even if they are dangerous, is not usually bred with the intention of using it to kill people. And in regards to cars, I can see your guys' point, but the fact that nearly everyone drives seems to make it a natural thing to give classes on. Just my 2 cents =P

Mike and I have been discussing issues like this on and off for ages now. It started when we popped into a small local pet store here in northern Michigan that was selling 3 baby burms...two albino's, one normal...unsexed as far as I know. Nice cute little babies that have a large potential for growth and special needs for housing, husbandry and handling.

I guess what bothers us most is that pet store doesn't have a reptile specialist per se. There are no local requirements that we are aware of to monitor pet stores or require anything from them. There is now only one baby burm left and we wonder just how much the two purchasers were told about a burmese and it's potential down the road.

I don't know what the answer is as far as the pet store part of this equation. I hope these burms went to responsible, experienced snake owners but since there is nothing that even remotely encourages or requires that....who knows.

Wierd thing here, when I tried to look up laws surrounding ownership of exotics, etc. all I found was tons of information on wolf dogs. Odd I don't see a lot of those for sale LOL but somebody sure has a fly up their nose over this apparently if you go by the page upon page of what is and isn't a wolf dog and how it must be housed, etc., etc.


~~Jo~~

There's this kid on another forum that I visit who is very excited about the lavender albino ball python that he just purchased from a guy that wanted to get rid of it. He asked the guy what kind it was, and he told him a burm, and now he's very excited about this new burm line of ball python that he has. :frustrate