Spider Head Shaking genetic defect

Hi,
I just recently bought a spider female(young only 140g or so) and it was a great price. Well when I recieved her(100% healthy no problems thing stated) her head shakes. And it tilts at an angle. She has no other signs of anything wrong, and my snake person tell sme there is a genetic disorer known of in spider morphs. Then he contacted several people he knows that have seen this in THIER spider morphs in person before and they confirmed this.
I took her to the local Vet College yesterday, and I will detail out all the stuff there if anyone is interested, short form, they examined her and gave me antibiotics, in case tehre is some infection. Once they took her back for the exam proper they became very excited as the first vet was thinking IBD or similar thing as she had not heard of the genetic thing.
They ended up with 20+ vets in the room looking at her, as this was new to them. They agreed she didn't have any of the other symptoms of any infectious disease.
My question is:
Has anyone here heard of this, seen this, or have a snake affected?
I will answer any questions that I can at this point.
I cannot say who I recieved the snake from as it could be slander until this is proven. I am currantly negociating hopefully, unless he blows me off, which seems a bit likely. Then all bets are off.
Any links to any online resources that mention this would be appriciated as well, I tried searching in several search engines, came up nada.
Thanks in advance.
Wolfy

Here's a good link for ya... Good luck!

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...3&postcount=13

Exactly what I was looking for, and sorry, I didn't even think to search here! Yes, I am an idiot, but this idiot is running on about 8 hours of sleep for this week. Should I post there or here about this specific thing? It is not exactly breeding ethics.
Hmm>
Wolfy *THANK YOU!!!*

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

I just recently bought a spider female(young only 140g or so) and it was a great price. Well when I recieved her(100% healthy no problems thing stated) her head shakes. And it tilts at an angle.

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Sadly, sometimes the "great price" comes at an additional, hidden cost. It saddens me that people operate in this business without regard for their customers ... that is the one part about this hobby/business that I can't stand. The best advice that I can give you (or anyone) for the future is to stick with the bigger breeders ... I feel that in this case if you had, you might have paid a little more, but you would have gotten an honestly represented animal and full disclosure of what's going on with the morph. Being armed with the information before hand, you could have made your own decision about going forward with the purchase.

If there's anything that I can do to help, please let me know.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

The best advice that I can give you (or anyone) for the future is to stick with the bigger breeders ...

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Hmm... I'm not so sure about that. I think the big breeders definitely have a repuation that they need to uphold, but I think a lot of small breeders also have excellent reputations. One shouldn't base their purchase solely on the size of the breeder but rather what type of service they should expect.

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Hmm... I'm not so sure about that. I think the big breeders definitely have a repuation that they need to uphold, but I think a lot of small breeders also have excellent reputations. One shouldn't base their purchase solely on the size of the breeder but rather what type of service they should expect.

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When I use the term "big breeders" what I really mean is "big" in terms of reptuation and customer service. In my opinion the physical size of a breeders operation is meaningless. It's the size of their rep that sets them apart and helps people to know that they will get quality animals, excellent customer service, and full disclosure. Many times you pay a little more for that "rep", but in my opinion it's worth every penny ... I don't buy any other way. ;)

-adam

I would think that sticking with KNOWN breeders would be good, but honestly, I goofed and got burned. It happens and I am not whining about that in the least.
Thanks for the offer Adam, and I would love to get ANY information you have on the spinning seen in spider morphs that you could find for me.
It is an axample of "too good to be true" being absolutely correct.
In YOUR opinion Adam, would you breed this animal or not? I was not going to breed her unless it was for research purposes. But in the other thread, you mentioned that you believe it is not genetic. If it is environmental, then she is defective herself physically, and perfectly fine genetically. Kind of like a snake who has a scar.
Thanks again!
Wolfy

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

I would think that sticking with KNOWN breeders would be good, but honestly, I goofed and got burned. It happens and I am not whining about that in the least.
Thanks for the offer Adam, and I would love to get ANY information you have on the spinning seen in spider morphs that you could find for me.
It is an axample of "too good to be true" being absolutely correct.
In YOUR opinion Adam, would you breed this animal or not? I was not going to breed her unless it was for research purposes. But in the other thread, you mentioned that you believe it is not genetic. If it is environmental, then she is defective herself physically, and perfectly fine genetically. Kind of like a snake who has a scar.
Thanks again!
Wolfy

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1500 grams is a long way aways. If it were me, I would raise her up and breed her to the best looking pastel I can find (I LOVE BUMBLE BEES!) and hatch out some cool babies. If any of the babies turned out to be spinners, I would either just keep them for myself, or sell them to someone that is fully aware of the issues with spinning spiders.

Spinning doe not effect the animals ability to eat, grown, or breed. To me, if an animal is doing those things, it's a pretty happy little dude/dudette ... so I don't see anything wrong with raising her up, breeding her, and seeing what happens.

:D

-adam

on the topic of possible genetic problems.. is the possible tail kinking in caramels also completely false?

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Originally Posted by Cubby23

on the topic of possible genetic problems.. is the possible tail kinking in caramels also completely false?

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Also?? I don't think anyone said that spinning in spiders was "completely false"???

-adam

I have a spider that had a bit of a head wobble when it was a baby but she outgrew it in about 2 months and now there is nothing at all. I have also heard of others with the wobble outgrowing it so maybe yours will too. One thing about mine was she didn't do it all of the time so it was barely noticable. She would only do it on occasion and only when I would hold her...

Its recently occurred to me that I've got an '04 normal female with a mild case of the spins. She's never wobbled or twitched, but she does have the tendency not to right herself or stay oriented to the ground.

Completely unaware of the issue and assuming that maybe she just "rides the short bus," I've raised her up to 1500 grams and is currently paired with a normal male. Just food for thought when other people try to make a big freakin deal about it.

That's actually an interesting moral dilemma that I think most breeders will have to face eventually. As it is, morphs are bred to produce certain colorful attributes. But at the same time, I imagine some of them might have other detrimental qualities such as spinning, kinks, deformed heads/mouths, etc. Many of these negative qualities might affect the quality of life for these animals, or might just be sad to look at to the average person.

So the question comes up do you cull these animals, or simply make a conscious decision to not breed them or sell them to someone as a pet only? Tough decision when it comes to a morph worth thousands of dollars, but I think for a breeder who wants to make a name for himself, it would be worth it in the long run simply to associate your name with quality animals. :juggle:

The thing about spinners is that it doesn't ALWAYS pass on to the offspring. Kinking doesn't ALWAYS pass on to the offspring.

If there's a trait that doesn't affect the overall quality of life of the animal, I don't see an issue with breeding it. As long as you keep adding new blood to the line, your resulting offspring shouldn't be any more suceptible(sp?) to defects that anyone else is.

That's true, but I think very little is known about these defects in Balls. You make a point that they aren't always passed on, but if they are genetic then perhaps they're recessive. Do you think a breeder should disclose that the animal they are selling might be het for spinning or kinking?

I think a big breeder would be better at answering that than me, but my opinion on it is that I don't think you can look at an animal being "het" for some defect that same way we talk about something being het for a color morph. Genetics are MUCH MUCH more complicated than the simplified punnent squares we're used to when visualizing simple recessive or co-dom genetics, and way beyond my understanding.

Any reputable breeder would have no problem disclosing or discussing those issues. If they won't talk about it with you, DON'T send them a DIME.

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Originally Posted by xdeus

That's true, but I think very little is known about these defects in Balls. You make a point that they aren't always passed on, but if they are genetic then perhaps they're recessive. Do you think a breeder should disclose that the animal they are selling might be het for spinning or kinking?

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A good breeder will. "Good" meaning honest and upright. I made a deal with Adam to buy a het-caramel female from him. Before I ever sent him any money, he sent me a long e-mail explaining the risks of possible kinking in caramels and included as much actual statistics as there are to be had. Then asked me to please keep all this in mind before making that final commitment and sending him the money. THAT's good business!

And that little one I was eyeing will be here day after tomorrow!! :bounce: (Honestly people, you have NO idea how often I hold myself back from jabbering about that in every thread! LOL)

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Originally Posted by JLC

And that little one I was eyeing will be here day after tomorrow!! :bounce: (Honestly people, you have NO idea how often I hold myself back from jabbering about that in every thread! LOL)

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I can't wait until you get her either! I have some idea what that's like! I tried not to bore people with my excitement over getting my new girls, and I'm sure when Piper is born and he and Casper are ready to leave Adam's I'll be all giddy about them as well! LOL

Money lost or money to gain will motivate people to breed animals with genetic defects....this ruined a lot of dog breeds rots, american bulldogs ,pitbulls, mastiffs etc. Back yard breeders breeding animals for the sole purpose of cash. Reading this thread makes me worry what the future may hold for reptiles.

I don't think you can't fully equate dog breeding and the genetic issues with reptile breeding. Yes some of the ethics may hold true but remember the numbers. A puppy mill can start breeding female dogs at a much earlier age and get more and bigger litters from back to back breeding. By the nature of snakes you just cannot do this. Yes you could probably breed a female ball a bit young...but not at 6 months of age. Neither can you, as far as I know, get more than one clutch from her per breeding season. In some ways, reptiles are self-regulating more than mammals when it comes to human interference and over-breeding. I'm not a breeding expert, nor even experienced, but if you can double clutch ball pythons I've never seen any mention of it so please correct me if I'm wrong. You can't really create a snake mill I wouldn't think like you can a puppy mill...the numbers just don't add up fast enough...the turnaround is too slow for the greedy creeps like those in the puppy mill world.

The discussion though on breeding ethics as it pertains to any possibility of genetic defect in breeding stock is a good one. Mike and I have spent a lot of hours discussing scenerios and what decisions we might have to make down the road.

Pardon my ignorance but what is spinning?

right now i lack a better description, but it is kind of like how stevie wonder would sway his head back and forth a bit. and i 've heard that some kind of tilt their head a little.

vaughn

haha Vaughn...I just pictured a BP with sunglasses and braids...

Her head is tilted, and it is almost a palsy type tremer which shows when she moves a lot or gets stressed.
At least with mine.(She ate today too)

At least she is eating! I think Adam hit it dead on. Feed her, raise her up and breed her. As long as there is no pain and she has a normal life, what more could ya ask for! Good luck Wolfy...

Of course, on second thought, you could always send her over here :)

I will have plenty of time to decide whether or not to breed her.
She is one of the sweetest snakes ever. Even with injections of antibiotics and the vets drawing blood, she never fussed.
I think I post a pic, if not I will have to dig up the addy for it.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...d/eeac1d17.jpg

What a beautiful female! I do hope at some point they come up with a definitive answer on this issue, just to lay all the speculation to rest. Does anyone actually have even a decent idea of what percentage of spiders spin whether it's as babies or it continues into their adult years?

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Originally Posted by gamebred26

Money lost or money to gain will motivate people to breed animals with genetic defects....this ruined a lot of dog breeds rots, american bulldogs ,pitbulls, mastiffs etc. Back yard breeders breeding animals for the sole purpose of cash. Reading this thread makes me worry what the future may hold for reptiles.

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Well there's a real positive attitude for ya! :P

The truth is that in ANY industry there are people that will exploit it in order for a quick gain $$$ .... From dog breeds, to baseball cards, to big oil (ie. Enron), there are scum bags all over.

The good news is that in the ball python world there are enough established reputable breeders out there that being taken advantage of for someone personal financial gain shouldn't be a concern for anyone. From the big breeders like RDR, NERD, PKR, etc to the "basement breeders" with tons of great reviews on the popular review sites, it's real easy to see who the honest, upstanding members of our community are and who you can trust.

By supporting the trustworthy breeders that are committed to providing quality animals and first class customer service to their customers, you are keeping money from the scammers and fly by niters and giving them an incentive to GET OUT of the hobby/business.

The "future of reptiles" is in the hands of the consumer. Buy reputable, buy from the best!! :D

-adam