What is 'powerfeeding' exactly?

Just what the title says, what is it? :confused: I can figure it constitutes giving a snake more than it should be eating, but is there anything more definite? I have a new snake, 6 month old het albino that likes to eat, but I don't want to do him a dis-service by giving him too much. :( Please help define. Thanks

you know i have read alot on this subject and for the most part from what i read it's feeding leke every other day or three times a week and not letting your snake digest the meal before the next. but muti feeding in the same sitting is ok. my mojave will eat every day if i let him he has yet to refuse a meal. but i tend to feed every five days as this give them a chance to digest the food and he has grown so fast it's unreal. i really don't know if this help but this is just my thinking on the subject.

Power feeding is intentionally over-feeding your snake by any of several different measures. A lot of individuals will feed their snake a prey item that is larger than recommended in comparison to the size of their snake, or they'll feed the animal a prey item, and then, as it's swallowing it, they'll jam another pre-killed prey item into the snake's mouth so he has no choice but to ingest that one as well. Or, they'll feed the animal a few times a week, as gncz73 mentioned.

This is terrible for the following reasons:

a. the snake's immune system suffers because it is a tremendous shock to the snake's internals to have to constantly digest larger than acceptable prey items, and it is also a shock to their system to have to begin digesting a new prey item right after digesting the previous one. All the efforts of the snake's system get dedicated to digestion, and this weakens the snake's system over-all, thus, weakening the immune system as well

b. the animal can, in certain cases develop "fatty liver" which is a health problem shown to develop in snakes that are continually fed large rabbits and adult guinea pigs

c. it dehydrates the snake, because the snake needs fluids to help digest its prey, if it eats too much, or the meals it eats are too large it robs the snake of necessary fluids that help sustain the over-all health of the animal

Power feeding is bad news ... Repeatedly shocking a snakes system like that reduces their life-span by numerous years. Always stick to a conservative feeding schedule.

My snakes eat on a conservative feeding schedule and believe me, they're much happier and healthier ;)

So, one, or soon two, mice every 6-7 days is 'bout right for a 6 month old? Sorry, I don't have a recent weight or length on him.

I don't think you are powerfeeding, considering that of all the snakes I've raised, they were eating small rats at 6 months of age- and I don't even come close to "power-feeding."

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Originally Posted by vinnimac

So, one, or soon two, mice every 6-7 days is 'bout right for a 6 month old? Sorry, I don't have a recent weight or length on him.

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When talking about bp's, I think feeding multiple prey items at your usual feeding interval is fine. From all I've read, bp's are usually very good about just eating what they need and ignoring anything else. The only way I would be concerned about over-feeding a bp is if someone were forcing prey into its mouth like kenatk described. Then they don't have any choice in the matter.

[QUOTE=vinnimac]So, one, or soon two, mice every 6-7 days is 'bout right for a 6 month old? [QUOTE]

do you mean one or two Adults? or Hoppers?

I was, until recently, feeding my BP two hoppers every 7 days, but have just upsized to one adult every 7 days. She's about 6 or 7 months old also.

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Originally Posted by kenatk

This is terrible for the following reasons:

a. the snake's immune system suffers because it is a tremendous shock to the snake's internals to have to constantly digest larger than acceptable prey items, and it is also a shock to their system to have to begin digesting a new prey item right after digesting the previous one. All the efforts of the snake's system get dedicated to digestion, and this weakens the snake's system over-all, thus, weakening the immune system as well

b. the animal can, in certain cases develop "fatty liver" which is a health problem shown to develop in snakes that are continually fed large rabbits and adult guinea pigs

c. it dehydrates the snake, because the snake needs fluids to help digest its prey, if it eats too much, or the meals it eats are too large it robs the snake of necessary fluids that help sustain the over-all health of the animal

... Repeatedly shocking a snakes system like that reduces their life-span by numerous years. ...

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Kenatk,

Do you have any empirical evidence to support your claims?

Not trying to break your shoes, but as most people on the board are already painfully aware, I'm a real stickler for separating internet lore from fact. I've been around reptiles for a long time and have heard some of these things before, but have never seen an actual scientific study done proving anyone of them to be true. They seem to be more based on breeders "gut feelings" than anything actually concrete.

The best I've been able to find is a study conducted at USC that showed a correlation between power feeding and a shortened lifespan in fruit flys, but I honestly don't understand how anyone can make the leap from fruit flys to reptiles?

I appreciate you taking the time to review my response and look forward to any studies or other evidence that you might have to share.

-adam

:devilish: advocate (you know me) ;)


How about the studies linking cumulative caloric intake with lifespan?

I am sure there has been no study done with BPs specifically but there have been a number done with rodents and the general population of Okinawa.


It's amazing the things learned in the science fields in the last 25 years alone.



That aside - wouldnt feeding on an acelerated schedule (say every 3 days) be potentially damaging to the digestive systems? Even as opportunistic feeders who in the wild might have to binge when they can get it wouldnt sustaining that intake over long periods be detrimental?

(this has potential for a good discussion, guys!)

(EDIT: fer splling)

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Originally Posted by Smulkin

How about the studies linking cumulative caloric intake with lifespan?

I am sure there has been no study done with BPs specifically but there have been a number done with rodents and the general population of Okinawa.

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Can you really comfortably compare the metabolims and physiology of mammals to reptiles?

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Originally Posted by Smulkin

That aside - wouldnt feeding on an acelerated schedule (say every 3 days) be potentially damaging to the digestive systems?

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I don't know ... that's my point ... I've never seen anything beyond speculation to lead me to form a conclusion one way or the other.

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Originally Posted by Smulkin

(this has potential for a good discussion, guys!)

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I agree. :D

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

The best I've been able to find is a study conducted at USC that showed a correlation between power feeding and a shortened lifespan in fruit flys

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How in the world would one go about power feeding a fruit fly?! :confused:

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Originally Posted by xdeus

How in the world would one go about power feeding a fruit fly?! :confused:

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Very tiny tongs. ;) :hungry:

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Very tiny tongs. ;) :hungry:

-adam

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LMAO!!

Seriously, though...given the lack of any known empirical evidence on the pros and cons of powerfeeding....shouldn't one allow common sense to guide?

Yes, it's pretty hard to compare fruitflies or mammals to snakes...but I don't think I've ever heard of a single study on any sort of creature at all that said a constant, super-high calorie diet was harmless.

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Originally Posted by xdeus

How in the world would one go about power feeding a fruit fly?! :confused:

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f/t fruit or fresh... (don't want to start another f/t or fresh fruit debate... but I couldn't resist)

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Originally Posted by adam

Very tiny tongs.

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HAHA - love it.

Had a heck of a time trying to feed fruit flies to spiderlings - i wound up just chopping up cricket legs. That's right - just like grandma used to make!


http://biomed.gerontologyjournals.or.../56/suppl_1/20

I'll keep looking - that is a bit dense with a focus on "proton leak" on a cellular level. I know I read somewhere about lifespan, afrocks and cumulative caloric intake. This'll drive me nuts.

Not saying it IS - just saying the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence . . you know . . like a good master debator ;)

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Very tiny tongs. ;) :hungry:

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LOL. Either that or some sort of herbal appetite stimulant. :rolleyes:

Adam_Wysocki no problem ;)

My claims are based purely on my understanding of the animal's biology. In other words, if the animal's system gets rocked by feeding on larger than advisable prey items, it makes sense to conclude that it's immune system will suffer as well. And it is common scientific knowledge that a snakes system does take a jolt when feeding and digesting prey. The systems efforts are of course, directed elsewhere. And there is scientific evidence available that the animal's system does take a serious hit when it eats food that is larger than appropriate.

I will say though that fatty liver is more common in boas then balls, in fact I don't think I've heard of a ball getting fatty liver, but at any rate ...

Also, in terms of snake biology, when it digests its food, a great deal of its fluids get directed to its stomach and digestive tract. Under normal circumstances, this is okay, however, the animal can indeed become weakened and dehydrated if it is digesting two or three large rats it was power fed the day before, rather than if it was fed a normal, appropriately sized meal.

Now, if I am wrong about this stuff definitely let me know, by all means please. I don't mind criticism in the least and I don't ever take that stuff personally; I'm here to learn, just like everybody else is ;)

Smulkin

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Originally Posted by Smulkin

That aside - wouldnt feeding on an acelerated schedule (say every 3 days) be potentially damaging to the digestive systems? Even as opportunistic feeders who in the wild might have to binge when they can get it wouldnt sustaining that intake over long periods be detrimental?

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Absolutely, you are correct. This is because the snake's digestive system has to rest so-to-speak, andby that I mean to say that its gastric acids need to be replenished before it can feed in a healthy manner again. If it continually feeds and feeds and feeds, it wont have enough acid to properly digest its food.

This is why many keepers who power-feed are alarmed when they find whole bones and fun in their snakes stools (per my vet).

Just a couple of quick questions?

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Originally Posted by kenatk

My claims are based purely on my understanding of the animal's biology. In other words, if the animal's system gets rocked by feeding on larger than advisable prey items, it makes sense to conclude that it's immune system will suffer as well.

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So this is more speculation than fact, correct? I can see how someone might come to that conclusion, but you're not privy to any direct evidence that proves this supposition as fact are you? I only ask because I would love to get my hands on it. :D (hint, hint ;) )

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Originally Posted by kenatk

And it is common scientific knowledge that a snakes system does take a jolt when feeding and digesting prey.

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Is it? How much of a "jolt"? I understand how it seems like a logical premise, but unless it can be quantified, it doesn't do much good in an argument. For example, the "jolt" of digesting a meal isn't enough to effect the health of a gravid python when they do choose to eat while carrying eggs.

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Originally Posted by kenatk

And there is scientific evidence available that the animal's system does take a serious hit when it eats food that is larger than appropriate.

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Ahhh .... Perfect! ... Just what I was looking for .... :D:D:D .... Any links or references you that you could provide would be EXTREMELY appreciated! :D

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Originally Posted by kenatk

Also, in terms of snake biology, when it digests its food, a great deal of its fluids get directed to its stomach and digestive tract. Under normal circumstances, this is okay, however, the animal can indeed become weakened and dehydrated if it is digesting two or three large rats it was power fed the day before, rather than if it was fed a normal, appropriately sized meal.

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Again, is there any data to support this idea or is it supposition? I have seen plenty of snakes fed extremely heavily and not dehydrated. Of course, just because I haven't experienced it doesn't make it false, I'm just looking for information related to where these ideas came from that are more tangible than speculation.

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Originally Posted by kenatk

I'm here to learn, just like everybody else is ;)

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Ditto that .... I'm certainly not saying that you're "wrong" ... I really personally have no direct evidence to form an opinion one way or the other. I'm really just trying to sort out what is real (as in based on tangible physical evidence) and what is just speculation based on observations and peoples/keepers attempts at understanding basic snake physiology.

-adam

Adam I'll get as much information as I can together for you, no problem ;) A lot of what I have so far I learned from my vet (she's the only dedicated herp vet in my area), I'll find out where she got her data and see if I may collect some myself for ya.

I'll be in touch.

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Originally Posted by kenatk

Adam I'll get as much information as I can together for you, no problem ;) A lot of what I have so far I learned from my vet (she's the only dedicated herp vet in my area), I'll find out where she got her data and see if I may collect some myself for ya.

I'll be in touch.

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Awesome! ... Thank you!

-adam

This IS really cool!! :D :D I think I am going to learn alot more thru this thread than I originally intended! Thanks guys.

Hey kenatk, would you mind "keeping me in the loop" if/when you do find hard evidence for Adam? I am here to learn to, and if my grandson needs to do science project in a few years, I want to be able to 'help' :rolleyes:

vinnimac, yeah no problem, I'll publish the information in a thread on here so everybody can read the data and stuff. Should be pretty good ;)

Reading through some old threads and this caught my eye, thought I'd dig this one up and since I'm new here it's ok right?, lol. I was wondering if any scientific evidence was ever posted? I too have heard these rumor of detrimental over feeding, and have a couple takes on it as well. I personally don't think it's possible to overfeed a ball, without stuffing food down it's throat. If it's too full, it simply won't eat, and I'm sure almost everyone here has had a ball fast on them.

Couple opinions on some statements on here. First the dehydration. I think this is very dubious. While it is true that it takes a certain amount of water for digestion, any lack thereof will be compensated by the snake simply by drinking water. The total amount needed is minimal, as mammals have a higher water content than reptiles to begin with, so they actually gain fluid just by eating. In fact, in my limited experience, animals on the verge of being "powerfed" indicitively have watery/creamy excrement, as is evident of the increase water expulsion by the kidneys.

Next is the assumption that there's a shock on the snakes system by digestion. What i have read as far as scientific articles, the only documented "shock" on a snakes digestive system is in times of feast or famine. For instance, snakes that have long fasting times actually turn off thier digestive systems and they degenerate to a degree. It was shown that digestion times for the first feeding after one of these fasts took longer than subsequent feeding since the digestive system had to in essense, reboot. This however, shouldn't ever be a problem with a captive snake. The second is the assumption that stomach acids are necessary for digestion, which isn't really true. The stomach acids duty is to start breakdown through hydrolosis, but primarily it's to kill microorganisms and parasites. Feeding frozens nearly eliminates this problem in captives versus wild snakes. The primary enzymes responsible are released after food passes through the pyloric sphincter. Secondly, the assumption that these enzymes and even hcl, is a biologically "overly expensive" process is incorrect. I personally don't see any evidence that there is a shock to the digestive system in the above regards.

"Powerfeeding", or what I'll call feeding "ad libitum" (as I would never suggest forcing anything to eat is good) certainly accomplishes one certain goal: Growing snakes quickly for breeding. I have yet to see an obese young snake. Thier energy is used for growth rather than stored as in adult animals. Once thier adult size is reached( or the minimum comfortable size for breeding), there's really no reason to powerfeed regardless. Doing so will result in an obese snake, which is an entirely different subject. Obesity is undeniably detrimental.

My personal opinion, is that you can feed a growing ball as much food as it will take(ad libitum, which is normally about every three days). If it is indeed too much, it will let you know in several ways. 1. It will simply refuse to eat. 2. You'll get watery/excessively smelly/or partially undigested excrement 3. Obesity rather than growth is occuring. 4. It may regurgitate(which has more to do with the size of a meal than frequency). I personally feed my balls ad libitum and watch thier excrement for clues as to where i need to go with thier diet. If the signs point out that they may not be getting the maximun nutritional load/or completely digesting and reabsorbing the water from the food given, I'll back off for a few days. I'm sure as I raise more balls, there will be exceptions to every rule though. Having more experience with monitors, I can tell you for a fact that over feeding and obesity is a FAR bigger problem than with ball pythons. My big salvator eats far less frequently than is recommended because he has a major obesity problem since adulthood(as little as once every 2-3 weeks). But, even in salvators with a well documented obesity issues, i have yet to see an obese young monitor regardless of how much food they are given. And, as some of you know, they'll gorge themselves until their excrement is so undigested and putrid, that you'll have to evacuate your house!!!!, but still show no sign of anything detrmental health wise.

Just my .02, and it's worth just about that, lol. Again, if anything scientific has been posted, please point it out.

edited for the normal typos and nonsense run on sentences that get typed at 2:30AM, lol.