Rats??

I've been thinking of breeding my own rats, just a 1.3 or 1.4 set up to support my Ball Pythons. I'd prefer they were feeding F/T and will try and convert them as originally planned, but I'd though I'd give breeding a small manageable amount of rats a try.

I'm looking at getting a breeder tub and all for starters and not use any fish tanks. I'm thinking of getting two tubs and just rotate as they need cleaning for ease of maintenance.

I was wondering where you get your starter rats for your colonies? Are these the rats from local pet shops? Are they a special strain of rats? Should I start out with small, medium or large rats? Would I be better of getting two males, just in case?

First off.. you'll need two tubs for grow outs too (at least) one for male, and one for female weanlings.

Pet store rats should be fine.. large is good. The albino rats tend to be more prolific than fancy varieties.

Right now and for a good 2-3 months all I am feeding them is rat pups. I guess it makes sense to have an extra tub for when I need to keep them till they reach weaned/small sizes.


What about 1.3 or 1.4 or should I have 2 males in the group?

no need for two males. I keep mine 1.3, but that's because there's not enough room in the tubs for 1.4.

What about bites?
I'd rather get bit any day of the week by a 6ft boa than a rat!!

Haha.. me too.

Rats are not like mice.. a good tame rat will not bite. They actually make fabulous pets. The only time I've been bitten by mine is when fussing with new babies and the mom doesn't like it. Depends on the rat though, I have some that don't care if I take babies right from under them, and I have another that is quite vicious about her babies.

I haven't a problem handling any of my rats, including the feeders. All my breeders rapidly become afectionate and allow handling. MY best breeder I grabbed out of the bin of feeders for that particular feeding day. I had bought about 40 rats, and she was one of the lucky two that got to be put into the rat palace.
She had 9 pups first pregnancy. The pet store hooded rat had 4. The pet store hooded rat doesn't know how much closer to the feeder bin she is currantly.
wolfy

4? Geez that's a small litter. Mine are turning out 12-16 a month normally now.

Rat are, in my opinion, way easier to breed and raise for feeders. The females seem to be very naturally attentive mothers. Rats are communal creatures and usually quite friendly if they are handled when young. We currently have 6 adults (2 are females just reaching their first breeding age at 4+ months) as well as 2 litters nursing (one of 15, one of 12 and another litter ready to be born in the next few days).

All of our breeding stock came from the pet store though I am now going to be raising my own future breeders. We have mostly hooded rats with one albino and one solid colored one. My best female so far is a beige hooded, my most nippy female with young is an albino. I use the same homemade rat mix Becky (SatanticIntention) does for my colony. The best part is rats do not smell awful like mice do.

We use Rubbermaid Latchable tubs (#3C91), 50 QT clear, 26.1" x 10.4" x 15.6" - $8.97 WalMart - cut out a center rectangle and then zip tie in some 1/2" wire mesh or such like to allow for good ventilation. There water bottles are also zip tied outside the tub with the nozzle fed in. These are pretty roomy tubs but I like giving the rats a bit more room to move around in. I got a great plastic rack from WalMart for $17.88 - DuraShelf (#9144), 4-Tier Free Standing Shelf, 300 lb capacity (75 lbs per shelf), no tools required to assemble, hard white plastic, 35.25" x 14.25" x 55.25". Holds 4 of these tubs beautifully, sets up in about 2 minutes lol. I'll try to post a pic later of the new rack and a close-up of one of the tubs.


~~Jo~~

Rats are cool...good friend of mine in high school had a pet rat. She was awesome. Rode on my friend's shoulder like a parrot everywhere...=)

This is the shelving I bought at good old WalMart....
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...atShelving.jpg

Tub with Snowball in it (who you can see has clearly lost her figure LOL...this is her second litter due to arrive soon).....
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...owballsTub.jpg

HoneyChild & litter of 15 (1 day old)...her 2nd litter...19 days old now...
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...honeychild.jpg


~~Jo~~

Do you have a link to the rat diet components? I was looking but couldn't locate it

15? Wow! Does that diet include fertility drugs? :) I have one that's about to burst. I think her last litter gave me 11.

I had a litter born yesterday that had 17.. my rats are just prolific I guess.

Here's one thread where Becky lists the ingredients. There are others as well all under Feeders I believe.

I look at it this way...rats are omnivores by nature so in order for them to grow, breed, raise young, rebound from nursing well, and continue this cycle I feed them as such. Others choose other ways...this is just the way we choose to do it.

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...t=total+cereal

So far I'm getting 9+ pinks in first litters....12 - 15 in second litters...none of my females are yet ready for 3rd litters...I've lost 1 pink out of 62 birthed...that pink died at birth when the mother did not get it out of it's birth sac fast enough...none of been lost to poor mothering, maternal cannabalism or anything other than normal feeding off to the snakes.

On this diet plus extra protiens and more food volume during nursing, my females can easily nurse larger litters and not lose any significant body weight themselves. Therefore, they go into their next breeding cycle in very good condition which I believe encourages an even more successful next litter.


~~Jo~~

We should get Becky's recipe into the FAQ/etc. stuff...

It can be found at the top of the feeders forum as a sticky:
http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...307#post327307

Quote:

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

This is the shelving I bought at good old WalMart....

Tub with Snowball in it (who you can see has clearly lost her figure LOL...this is her second litter due to arrive soon).....
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...owballsTub.jpg

HoneyChild & litter of 15 (1 day old)...her 2nd litter...19 days old now...


~~Jo~~

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Great set up, but don't they chew through the plastic?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ssscales

Great set up, but don't they chew through the plastic?

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Not if the holes are not too big that they can do so. I housed many many rodents in set ups just like Jo's. Plus I think it helps when you give them other stuff they can chew on like I did.

Thanks, I may just give that a try!
It's a lot cheaper than the commercial rat tubs for $35.00 a pop..

Nope not one chew mark so far. I was also bit concerned about the holes I melted in the sides but the room they are in doesn't get a good cross draft so I felt I needed the extra ventilation they provided.

I'm not sure why they don't attempt to chew out. The tubs are very smooth in their interior...that probably helps. I do provide a lot of chew stuff daily as far as bones from our dinner, carrots, etc. so maybe that helps. Their feed mix is varied so they have stimulation picking through it. I don't overstuff the tubs with rats so perhaps that's a factor? The younger busier rats (feeders) get toilet paper tubs and stuff like that to knaw on. I prefer these clear tubs as I feel that may also help as they can see out and maybe don't feel the need to chew out to see what's up around them (rat's being highly inquisitive critters).

So far they seem very content in these tubs. Well other than my female with the almost weaned big litter who is madly trying to jump out whenever I open the tub to feed! She's about had it with the whole "jump on mom" aspect of mothering a large active litter LOL

Oh one thing about those tubs though. The locksnap lid is pretty good but I found a slight give on the corners so added extra security there on the lid just in case.


~~Jo~~

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ssscales

Thanks, I may just give that a try!
It's a lot cheaper than the commercial rat tubs for $35.00 a pop..

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Yeah no doubt about that!

Here's the costing out for my set-up so to give you an idea:

17.88 - rack
35.80 - 4 tubs @ 8.95/tub (I actually got a couple on sale for like $6.00)
14.60 - 4 water bottles @ 3.95 per
7.00 - bag of zip ties and roll of 1/2" mesh*

Total $75.28 plus taxes

Food dishes are no cost as I just find appropriate things for that LOL.

You might want a soldering wand if you don't have one....about $6.00 for that.

*free in my first setup as I already had appropriate wire from another project just laying around

This is just what I do....lots of choices out there really as far as how to house, feed, breed, etc.


~~Jo~~

With those tubs there is one thing to watch for.....holes!

When I was keeping my mice in similar tubs, I had on incident where a hole was chewed in the side where that little 'bump' provides sort of an edge. Out of the 5 enclosures, this only happend to one on the tubs and did not happen again after I replaced that tub. Just something to watch for when cleaning.

Yep good advice Daniel. I do keep careful watch on that area as well as the vent holes I added. So far none of the rats seems inclined to chew but I'm sure I'll get one someday who has just gotta buck da system LOL. Thanks for pointing that out though.


~~Jo~~

Well, went to Target and they don't carry Iris tubs anymore!! So, I went with 50qt Rubbermaid tubs instead.

I'm currently housing 1.1 and 0.2 together and will swap females. I added a few drops of Vanilla to the water and hopefully that will keep the smell down. I plan on cleaning the tubs every 6-7 days or sooner if needed. I also bought some Mazuri Rat food and some of those Honey Rat sticks with seeds and stuff stuck together. I spent $18.00 on tubs + $6.00 water bottles + $5.00 for wire mesh = about $13.00 per tub.

I'll order some Harlan Teklad lab blocks next week online.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...s/IMG_2702.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...s/IMG_2701.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...s/IMG_2703.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...s/IMG_2704.jpg

Looks good.. just keep an eye on those ventilation holes on the sides. They may try to chew.

Where are you planning on getting harlan teklad lab blocks? I can't find the darn things anywhere.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shelby

Looks good.. just keep an eye on those ventilation holes on the sides. They may try to chew.

Where are you planning on getting harlan teklad lab blocks? I can't find the darn things anywhere.

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The holes are pretty small, I don't think they'll be able to get their teeth into it.
As for the lab blocks, still searching...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shelby

Where are you planning on getting harlan teklad lab blocks? I can't find the darn things anywhere.

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I went to my local seed store and they ordered it for me. They can also order Mazuri in 25 and 50 lb bags. Just tell them Mazuri is made by Purina. Teklad comes in 33lb bags.

Looking great! If you're a bit concerned about chewing toss in the empty roll from your toilet paper or paper towels and they'll happily chew away on that as well as any bones from your dinner (just remove what is leftover the next day or so and it won't make the bedding stinky - that is if they leave anything LOL).

I love the 50 qt tubs myself....big enough to house a couple of adults or a female with a big litter w/o crowding as they approach weaning age or for seperate tubs for growing the feeders up (seperated by sex after 5 weeks of age).


~~Jo~~

I through in some pieces of wood blocks and they have some cardboard in their as well. They poop like crazy, floor is already full of little raisins, but they don't seem to smell. I also put some Vanilla in the water bottles, so far so good! They sleep most of the day.

The male I have is about the size of a medium rat and the females are somewhat large rats when compared to the RodentPro feeders I get.

When should I begin to expect pups?

Rats are hard to tell. Usually about a few days b4 they have their litter the moms will have a noticeably bigger belly. B4 that though there really is no way of telling.

With your females being of breeding age, and depending where they came from, they could already be pregnant. Pet stores don't always carefully seperate the sexes so if they came out of a pet store (most of mine did) you could already have a litter on the way. If your male is around them for more than a week or two they usually get preggie pretty easily.

Watch for a distinct pear shape though some females don't start to show till they are darn near ready to pop (really big bodied female rats can hide their litters more in the body cavity). About 1 day before they deliver they will make big nests and usually the last week before delivery they are very quiet, lay on their sides or flat on their backs (they look dead! geesh scared me the first time! LOL). They usually deliver easily with little mess and clean up all the afterbirth so really nothing for you to do other than provide lots of drinking water and extra food for the preggie/nursing female.

Maybe these pictures will illustrate...

This is Stubby, a young unbred (and too young to breed) female.
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...bredfemale.jpg

This is Flash who is, I figure, about a week from delivering her first litter. I usually watch for the pear shape and that's when I put them in their maternity tubs away from the breeder male (they can rest and eat lots!). Usually within 4 to 7 days after that they are huge and ready to pop.
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...todelivery.jpg

This is Lucky who delivered her first litter (12) the day after this pic was taken.
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...ysBigBelly.jpg


~~Jo~~

Thanks those pics helped, my females are about her size. They don't let me pick them up with such ease though! I'll start petting them from time to time and hopefully get them comfortable around me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wild Bill

I went to my local seed store and they ordered it for me. They can also order Mazuri in 25 and 50 lb bags. Just tell them Mazuri is made by Purina. Teklad comes in 33lb bags.

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My feed store can't get teklad.. and I'm not keen on Mazuri because corn is either the first or second ingredient.

Well some of it is I'm used to handling them and they are pretty used to me but Flash got her name from being the fastest, most fidgety rat ever born. It might look like they are calmly accepting the picture taking...it's more about my firm grip and that they are smart enough to figure out there's no point in arguing LOL.

I actually rarely play with them all that much, though they get a nice pat or scratch daily during feed but they are not truly pet rats (which can be highly socialable and lovely companion animals). The females that are busy with their litters could care less about me LOL though usually stand and greet me when I bring food or babble to them. Yes I talk to my breeder rats....deal with it folks :P LOL

Okay no laughing - this works. If you want them to come to you, bring a special treat like say stale bread dipped in a bit of oil or a small piece of chocolate (unlike dogs rats can eat chocolate - M&M's are a big hit in our rat colony)....make a tongue clicking or kissy noise...they will soon learn that noise means you want to handle them and they'll either come to a cage door or stand up in the tub to be picked up (the treat is just reinforcement, eventually they'll respond to the sound - though rats are ultimate moochers and always love treats lol) Ours are so used to Mike and I, the adults pretty much automatically stand up and greet us as soon as we approach their tubs (mooching for treats yet again!)



~~Jo~~

Okay just in the interest of equality....here's the reason the females are making me all those lovely feeder rats LOL. Meet Casanova aka Nova, our Black Hooded breeder male. He's our third breeder male...the first was too old to do the job...the second male we bought was mean and bit the females very badly...Nova is just a big nice male rat that does what nature intends but doesn't bully the females around. He's currently bunking in with his just weaned sons as we have no available female for him and like all rats, he likes company LOL.

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...t-Casanova.jpg

~~Jo~~

He's cute Jo. Why do rats have to be so cute? I just fed an apricot dumbo rex baby to my BP. Dang that rat was cute..

Hey Nova ain't cute April....he's a manly man rat! LMAO (gawd help he gets thinking he's pretty and sits around grooming all day instead of chatting up the girlie rats LOL).


I'm hoping to get some dumbo's and rex's just for a nice change of pace when we set up colony #2.

Everytime I get a bit of the "oh this rat is too cute to feed" I remember this rat is feeding a dang cute snake and somehow it stops bothering me lol.


~~Jo~~

Yep. I like 'collecting' different rat colors/patterns. I got these really cool ones from breeding my seal point siamese velveteen rex to my agouti snip berkshire. The pups (some of which are velveteens) have a fader pattern.. it's dark toward the butt, and it fades towards the head. The face just has ghost markings on it.

And then there's the hairless rats that just popped up in a random litter.. that's a recessive gene for you. :)

Well snake forum be danged...I want to see pics LOL. Actually the rat breeding is rather fun and very interesting with the benefit of course of the whole feed the snakes thing. My daughter Beth is going to try some breeding combo's in the future with the rats. Kind of a nice way for her to see some quick results and learn about recessive genes and so forth.



~~Jo~~

Perhaps I'll find the time to get some cute ratty pics tomorrow. I do have some lookers. :)

I'm taking your advice and giving them leftover chicken bones from dinner tonight. I'm sure they'll love getting that marrow out!

Oh they'll love it April and hey it's going in the garbage anyways so why not turn that marrow into rat food that turns into snake food LOL (I'm so dang cheap it's obvious I'm part scots!)


Mine got a bunch of trimmings off the pork roast tonight that were just wasted scrap.....happy pork munchin rats LOL.

~~Jo~~

They are definitely garbage hounds. I've found they love jackfruit pudding that had chunks of fruit in it (no one else liked it, so to the rats it went!) and a hard boiled egg in the shell is a great snack with a brain stimulating twist. ;) Ramen noodles are something they about kill each other for too. They're fun to spoil.

Would they eat banana rinds or is that a bad idea? Just curious...=)

Very interesting thread ladies! I think my fiance would kill me if I told her I was going to start breeding food for the snakes. She barely deals with my snake addiction and the knowledge of how many more are coming in the future! But its an interesting thread and most likely when I get to 50, 60, 100 snakes it will make way more financial sense to breed my own. How long does it take a baby to get to small rat size (which is the size all of my adults eat)? I know NOTHING about rats.

J

They are small rats at 4-6 weeks of age.

Cass, I don't know if they'd touch banana rinds.. wouldn't hurt to try though.

Jo, I just got 4 of those exact same tubs you used, what did you use to cut the opening in the top? I tried a razor knife, but the material is too brittle, it breaks instead of cuts.

You can 'cut' by melting with a soldering wand or gun. I also have a handheld power saw that'll do the trick, but melting would prevent cracking.

Tried that too, took a half hour to go half way around. Tin snips didn't work either.

Has anyone tried just melting a bunch of holes in the lid? Would that be enough air flow?