How big of a colony would I need?

Hi everyone, I'm thinking about starting to breed rats. In everyone's experience, how many breeders would I need to supply 6 large rats per week?

I am no good with this kind of math stuff, but I'll tell you that you can expect a female rat to give you anywhere from 10-15 babies every month if she is always kept with the male. A rat takes around 6 months to reach full size, but 'large' rats are sometimes not full grown. A full grown one is usually classified as 'jumbo'. I'd give males probably 4 months to reach 'large' status.

The thing with rodents is.....the longer you keep them...the more money they cost to feed and the more space they take up....

If you want to turn over at least 6 adult rats a week.....lets do some calculations :)

Days needed for gestation = around 22 days
Days until weaned = around 22-25 days
Days until medium-large size is reached = around 40-60 days

So that is around 44-48 days until a female will be available to breed again because she is either pregnant or nursing. In order to produce around 6+ rats a week, you would need to have around 1 litter every week maybe 1 every two weeks if you have good producers. If a female is not available for 40-45 days (around 7 weeks), I would go with around 8-9 females. If you dont have enough babies...get some more females....if you have too many babies, feed some of the breeders.

You would need a place to house all the breeder and the babies once they are weaned.

So, starting out with a breeding pair, in 4-6 months, I'd be up to my eyeballs in Jumbos?

10-15 babies a MONTH? Really?

Edit---------OOps, Daniel, you and I must have been typing at the same time.

Rodents breed like crazy. Albino rats typically are more prolific than the fancy rats.

40 day old rats aren't large by my standards.. they've only been weaned for about 10 days at that age. I call them medium at 2-3 months. Large 4-6. But maybe I just have slow growers, I don't know...

So, I'd need 8 or 10 tubs, one for each female with litter, and just rotate the male?

Albino rats? aka Lab rats?

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Originally Posted by Shelby

Rodents breed like crazy. Albino rats typically are more prolific than the fancy rats.

40 day old rats aren't large by my standards.. they've only been weaned for about 10 days at that age. I call them medium at 2-3 months. Large 4-6. But maybe I just have slow growers, I don't know...

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I am not much of a rat person, so I just used the avg. days that RodentPro provided for their sizes for a timeline....

....I had my schedule and production worked out perfect with my mice.

....but now I deal with all frozen, too many mouths to feed, and too little of an apartment to be breeding mice ;)

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Originally Posted by monkeywrench133

So, I'd need 8 or 10 tubs, one for each female with litter, and just rotate the male?

Albino rats? aka Lab rats?

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You would need more tubs than that....if you take out a 6-15 litter out of the mother's enclosure after they are weaned you will need a place to put them for 20-40 days until they reach large size....with a litter a week, I would get around 15-17 tubs.

EDIT: ......maybe a litter every two weeks is much better.....you would be producing a lot of babies with that many females.....I was assuming worst case litters....but if you have a bunch of really large litters you will be overrun.....ha ha...that happened to me a few times with my mice....but thats what we have freezers for right? :)

I wonder what rodent pro feeds their rats. lol

Erin, I'll just tell you what I do. It may or may not be the best way, but it works for me and my 23 hungry scalekids. I keep one male to three females in large lab style cages. The females and male all stay together all the time. All the females help each other take care of their babies.. even the male will sometimes lay on them and keep them warm.

I wean babies at about a month, at which time males and females are separated out to their own grow out tubs.

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

The thing with rodents is.....the longer you keep them...the more money they cost to feed and the more space they take up....


You would need a place to house all the breeder and the babies once they are weaned.

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Holds especially true when you are growing them to large sizes. In addition to seperate cages for weaning, and letting momrat recover some weight before putting her to breed again, you need to divy them up by sex or you will windup with rampant breeding.

At some point a couple of males who weren't eaten must have inadvertently been tossed back into the cages holding the females - the unintended litters are out of control.

The routines are daily and at that more work than caring for the snakes they feed but has been worth the effort for us.


(EDIT: HAH! S0000 so beaten by you guys while responding!)

Smulkin what bedding do you keep your rats on? I'm trying to find something reasonably priced that's healthy for them.

Not to hijack, I just remembered I wanted to ask you! lol

My rats are still on pine - the snakes take care of keeping their life expectancy down ;)

Ok. So the pine is kind of a debate.. I didn't notice any problems when I used it. *shrug*

Ok, let me pose this question. I have one bp, one bci, and two baby retics. that population should be stable for about a year (or my wife will leave me). In your opinions, which would be more cost effective: breeding my own or buying frozen?

no problems when I used it either.....I think the pine bedding is all about quality.

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Originally Posted by monkeywrench133

Ok, let me pose this question. I have one bp, one bci, and two baby retics. that population should be stable for about a year (or my wife will leave me). In your opinions, which would be more cost effective: breeding my own or buying frozen?

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Another factor might be - how does she feel about the prospect of rats being bred in the house?

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

no problems when I used it either.....I think the pine bedding is all about quality.

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If I intended them as pets I might be dissuaded. I think also finding bedding which is more coarse and with less dust certainly can't hurt. Frankly I'm more focused on getting the bedding changed out frequently enough to give them a clean environment.

Well.. it may or may not be cheaper to raise your own. Buying from rodentpro is pretty inexpensive.

I have 5.15 breeders and their offspring (usually total around 100 rats) and each month I spend about $50 on food, and $5 on bedding. They also take up my time every day. I enjoy it, but you may find it a chore to take care of that many.

With retics, you will need to be feeding rabbits some day. Keep that in mind.

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Originally Posted by Smulkin

Another factor might be - how does she feel about the prospect of rats being bred in the house?

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She actually doesn't have a problem with rats. Mice are a different story because she kept them as pets when she was a kid. Also, I've got a half acre lot with several out buildings I could convert into Rat Condos.

Shelby, Yeah, I know Rabbits are in my future, and not THAT far off. I'm thinking of using the rat breeding as a "test case" to see if I then want to start breeding rabbits.

Erin....why not buy a pair of rats....give it a shot....see how it goes....if it doesn't work out, you have not jumped in it fully.... and if it works out good, you will be alittle more experienced when you get a few more :)

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Originally Posted by monkeywrench133

She actually doesn't have a problem with rats. Mice are a different story because she kept them as pets when she was a kid. Also, I've got a half acre lot with several out buildings I could convert into Rat Condos.

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That's cool then! But be forewarned some of those little hoppers are cute!

With that number to feed I might be inclined to go frozen if you have the freezer space - just to save myself the effort and room it would otherwise consume. Call me lazy :P

Thanks Daniel, Yeah, I was thinking that starting small would be my best option. But I know that lots of folks here do raise their own, so I thought I would ask the question.

Smulkin.................................Lazy:P

Just to give you an idea of a smaller rat colony for breeders/feeders. I have the following rats which feed the following snakes each week. I have a current total of 34 rats feeding 4 ball pythons (the BCI and milksnake require outside purchases for their feed). This is what I've got in my colony as of today:

Cage #1 - large main wire cage holds my male breeder rat and whatever female is currently rotating in with him for breeding, I pull the females out as soon as they show obvious signs of pregnancy

Tank #1 - holds one female rat and her 12 day old litter of 15 pups (actually 13 as two were fed off this past Thursday to my smallest BP)

Tub #1 - holds one pregnant female due to deliver in about 1 week

Tub #2 - holds a breeder female and her 3 day old litter of 12 pinks

Tub #3 - females only - holds 3 weanling female feeder rats and one female rat that is being raised as a future breeder (she'll go to the male at age 4 months)

Tub #4 - males only - currently none but would be for male feeders

With this colony I'm just keeping up with my requirements and once my two big females return from their breeding contract I will be short so I'm actually starting a second breeding colony soon.

They are on some nice shelving I bought from WalMart....cost me all of $17.88, is plastic and easily scrubbed, takes up hardly any floor space. They don't smell much at all if they are kept clean, not overcrowded and their tubs, tanks or cages have good ventilation as well as in a room with decent ventilation.

I usually let my breeder females rest for a week or two between litters, especially big ones, to get them back up to condition before putting them back in the main cage with the breeder male. They just go in the females only tub for that time.

Hope this helped give you an idea. Just the way we do it, not the only way LOL. I love breeding my own feeders and don't find it a ton of work really. I'll have to take a pic of my new rat rack....it's saving me a lot of space for very little money. Eventually I'm getting rid of the last 10 gallon tank I'm using. I love the 50 qt (11"widex26"longx16"high) clear rubbermaid tubs much better than glass so other than the large main cage I'm going with all tubs in the future.


~~Jo~~

Wont the rats chew out of the tubs though? ALso do you have a link to the rat rack like where you can buy it. I might get one today.

I use a homemade rack for my rats like below.

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...ballpython.jpg

I like this because it doesnt take up very much space. I run 1.3 rats per tub and don't seperate anyone out unless needed. I find keeping the females in with the males they usually are expecting within a week or two of weaning babies. I am currently keeping 12.36 breeders and feed Tekland rodnet chow. I use a combination of kiln dried pine bedding and shredded paper (from junk mail, newspaper ads, and business paperwork). Rats seem to love the paper for nest building and it save me some cost on bedding. I find the only time I have seperated rats is when I see a couple babies that look smaller than the rest, I will "adopt" them out to another mother. I clean cages once a week, and fill water bottles twice a week. Other wise I try not to disturb them and they seem to do very well.

I think I covered most of the stuff that was talked about! LOL!! I love talking about the rats. I also put the weanlings in a large aquarium so I can watch them and laugh. They are so fun to watch bounce around and wrestle!

Bill

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Originally Posted by amg20102006

Wont the rats chew out of the tubs though? ALso do you have a link to the rat rack like where you can buy it. I might get one today.

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If there are any sharp edges inside the tub they can chew out. The inside should be smooth to the touch. Thats why I use concrete mixing tubs in my racks, they have rounded corners and no "edges" to chew.

Bill

Like Bill said you need tubs with smooth interiors but you do have to watch for chewing just in case. I feed and water daily and check them in passing once or twice daily so I'd catch them if they started that up.

I usually make sure they have things like empty toilet paper cylinders and stuff like that to chew on and so far none of them have chewed at all on the tubs. Ripped up pages from old telephone books are great fun for them. They chew on it, drag it around and build nests out of it and heck it gives me something to do with those darn old books laying around LOL.


~~Jo~~

Ok, I took the plunge last weekend and bought 2.4 rats and set up 1.2 colonies. One in a 15 gallon, the other in a 10 gallon. 2 of the females appeared pregnant when I bought them, so I put them in seperate cages. The female in the 10g had her litter two days ago. I left the male in with her. She had a litter of 8 or 10 pups, I couldn't get an accurate count. Today, there were 2 left. I caught the male eating one, but don't know if he killed it or what, there were a couple dead pups in the nest, but they had no bites on them, so I'm not sure what happened there.

The pregnant female in the 15g long had her litter today, 9 pups. I removed her and her litter to a tub temporarily, and took the other female's remaining two pups and put them with her. So far, she's taking care of all of them well.

So here are my questions

1: Is a 10 gallon tank too small for 1.2 rats? Could the rats in the 10g have been overcrowded, hence the eaten/killed pups?

2: Will a male rat kill the pups of another male, as lions do when a new male assumes alpha position? Since the females were pregnant when I bought them, I highly doubt the male with them was the father.

3: Are some females just bad mommies?

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1: Is a 10 gallon tank too small for 1.2 rats? Could the rats in the 10g have been overcrowded, hence the eaten/killed pups?

2: Will a male rat kill the pups of another male, as lions do when a new male assumes alpha position? Since the females were pregnant when I bought them, I highly doubt the male with them was the father.

3: Are some females just bad mommies?

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Yes a ten gallon is far too small for 3 adult rats plus a litter.

Male rats are usually good with thier own young. I'm not sure how they react to young they perceive as not their own quite honestly. I don't allow my breeder male any access to anything younger than 5 week old male weans which are his offspring.

Yes some females are not good mothers especially on first litters and especially if they are crowded and stressed by the other unfamilar rats in a small enclosure. The female may well be a good mother in a situation she couldn't handle and therefore disposed of her litter (if indeed the mother did and not the other adults). I purposely breed my small colony with paired females. They go in with the male together, they are females that know each other, once they are both pregnant they go to maternity tubs....one female per 50 quart tub where they stay till they wean their litter at 23 or 24 days.

I cycle paired females so if one female has an overwhelmingly large litter they other female can foster some, or if a female dies or rejects her litter, I always have another female with similar aged young that will take over.

I don't keep my male in with the females after they are pregnant as he will re-breed them within 48 hours of delivery and for me, I don't want my females both nursing and carrying developing fetuses at the same time. Not saying anything is wrong with piggyback breeding, I just don't believe it is productive in the long run myself.


~~Jo~~

Has anyone done a cost analysis to see how much it costs per medium-large rat to keep fed? Im just curious how much of a savings it is for people vs using a local pet store.

I think I've just got one mean male rat. The other female I had in the 10g just had a litter of 3 pups today. I thought that I wouldn't have a problem with overcrowding since it was just her and the male, however, a few hours later, I caught the male trying to snatch one of the pups. I pulled the pups out and put them with the already nursing female. The male in the 15g tank has had two females in with him since I brought them home, and his behavior so far is great, while the one in the 10g really just seems abusive.

So, I think I'm going to do kinda what you do Jo. I'm going to set up 4 tubs. When the females aren't pregnant/nursing, I'll put two females in a tub to keep each other company. I'll put both in with the male I'm going to keep (the nasty one is going in the freezer tomorrow) so they can mate for a week, then I'll seperate all three. And put the next pair of females in with the male.

So, No, Snakey-snake, haven't done a cost analysis yet, but they are rapidly approaching the point where no matter how much cash they may save me, they aren't worth it.

Actually starting March 1st I'm going to do exactly that...a day by day exact analysis of what it costs to feed and house my rat colony. I don't raise any of them to the medium rat size other than my established breeders since we feed nothing larger than a small rat to any of our snakes. The BCI does take larger prey but I don't see it as being cost effective to raise his prey as I can purchase twice monthly for him at reasonable prices. I also don't raise mice for the milksnake as mice are just not my thing.

Erin, rat breeding is really pretty easy but it isn't for everyone. If you get some bigger tubs and get the colony stable you will likely enjoy it far more. My colony of 1 breeder male, plus 6 females and whatever young I have ticks along and I probably spend no more than 30 minutes per day tending to them (other than Sunday which is full tub cleaning day but even then, with Mike's help it's under an hour).

I did have to go through 3 males till I found my current breeder male. One wasn't fertile, one was just plain mean to the females (slashed them badly with his teeth) so don't dispare...just keep the one male that is nice. He can easily service many females if he's healthy and well fed.

Since your females obviously came to you pregnant it's not unusual that they would have poor first litter results. They were likely not well cared for or properly nourished so as with snakes, get the husbandry down pat and they will most likely do better the next go round. I've had one female I had to feed off for poor mothering, other than that my females consistently produce 9-12 healthy pups first litter and 12 - 15 healthy pups second litter.

We had our first rat litter December 4, 2005. So far we've had 78 pups born between then and today, I've lost 1 at birth...none thereafter. That number will change this week as two more of my females are ready to deliver at any moment.


~~Jo~~

Thanks for the encouragement, just a little frustrated I guess. I got 5 50qt tubs yesterday, hopefully I'll be able to finish setting them up today. Once they're set, things should smooth out. If not, oh well, live and learn. I do have to say that I'm really impressed with the one "active" mom, she's handling pups from her own litter and two others for a total of 13 like a champ. If this all doesn't work out, that one would probably stick around as a pet.