Help me to understand.

OK I am going to try to put this as gently as possible. Please do not blast me, but help me to understand the reasoning.

OK. I was looking at one of the site listed in the Hypo thread and they had a few snakes listed for $25K. Please help me to understand why that kind of price is justified? This is how I look at it. As I said help me to understand. Not blast me please. If someone is charging $25K for a snake then that only leads to its offspring being high priced also.You cannot say it costs more to keep these snakes because it doesn't. Granted its a morph or color that someone else doesn't have, but they will be wide spread sooner or later. I can understand selling a snake for about $2K. Although I still think that is alot of money, but I would pay 800 to 1000 for a snake to get something I would like, but those are Het prices. I'm not trying to slam anyone so please do not take it that way. If I had the snakes and I knew I could get $25K for them I would sell them at that price too. I just want to know the rational they have for those kinds of prices.

I sure hope the snake that apeared to be Pied when I disected the lost egg open was a pied and not a snake that hasn't developed all its color yet. Because I did two eggs one from two different clutches that didn't make it and one was fully normal. If that is the case I will be able to jump on the band waggon and might be able to get one of those fabulous $25K specimens. Thanks for everyones answers. I will say again this is not a slame towards anyone for prices like that. I would just like to know why so I can have a better understanding. Thanks

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Originally Posted by JB_Orchidguy

OK. I was looking at one of the site listed in the Hypo thread and they had a few snakes listed for $25K. Please help me to understand why that kind of price is justified?

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In a free and open market, people can price their products however they want to. If animals are priced at $25K, then it's because that is what people are willing to pay for them. A business person like a ball python breeder wouldn't be very smart to price an animal at $3,000.00 if there are people out there willing to pay $25,000.00 for the chance to own an animal that there may be only 30 of in the entire world.

Don't blame the person selling the animals for the high prices, blame the people that are willing to pay. ;)

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Originally Posted by JB_Orchidguy

If I had the snakes and I knew I could get $25K for them I would sell them at that price too.

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Exactly. Didn't you just answer your own question? So what’s the issue?

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Originally Posted by JB_Orchidguy

I sure hope the snake that apeared to be Pied when I disected the lost egg open was a pied and not a snake that hasn't developed all its color yet. Because I did two eggs one from two different clutches that didn't make it and one was fully normal. If that is the case I will be able to jump on the band waggon and might be able to get one of those fabulous $25K specimens.

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I think you are over simplifying. For one, you don't have a morph, you're embryos were just discolored due to improper incubation. Secondly, high dollar animals are being sold because they have been proven to be something special and unique and REPRODUCIBLE, and someone paid big money for the original animal out of Africa.

All of the morphs started with a single specimen or two that was imported from Africa ... these original morphs were very expensive. The original breeder took the time to establish the animal, get it healthy, breed it, and prove it out (which sometimes takes 5 years). All the while that breeder had payroll, food bills, taxes, rent, and other overhead to take care of. The money to cover the cost of the original animal plus the breeders expenses has to come from somewhere. I think the prices are more than justified.

Remember, these $25,000.00 animals aren't growing on trees ... there are literally only handfuls of the on the planet ... they are RARE ... and like all rare things, if you want something that has extremely limited availability, you have to pay … as they are sold and bred the supply will increase and the price will eventually come down.

-adam

Thanks Adam. As I said I wasn't blaming anyone for anything because I would be on the same band waggon too given the chance. I know my chances of having a morph are so slim it isn't funny, but wouldnt it be cool to have two Hets and not even know it, and to have only paid roughly 60 dollars for both snakes? What would the odds be? LMAO Come on stop putting out my glimmer of hope Adam. A guy can dream can't he? I have fantasies all the time. This is just the newest one. Adams spoiling all my fun and dreams :( . Even though he is probably right.:bonk: :crying:

I also didn't realize the numbers were only like 30 in the world either. Now that explains alot. I didn't realize those morph were so new.

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Originally Posted by JB_Orchidguy

but wouldnt it be cool to have two Hets and not even know it, and to have only paid roughly 60 dollars for both snakes? What would the odds be?

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You'd have better odds at winning the lottery. ;)

-adam

I think it comes down to supply & demand. When demand is high and supply is low sellers can ask for these prices as long as people are willing to pay it, its that simple. As supply balances out with the demands you'll see more competition around prices. As supply out weighs the demand...prices will drop to that last tier.

People with the resources that invest in that 1st tier when a new morph comes out want to make their investment back. They can charge that high dollar because they themselves put up the high dollar to reproduce that morph.Who sets the price for these morphs, buyers.

If someone wasn't willing to pay $25K, $100K or $200K for a morph, I don't think it would stay at that price for too long.

It's all a matter of what it's worth to someone, your house may be worth $200K today because someone was willing to pay $200K for it. If your neighbor sells his home similar to yours for $210K and the one across the street sells his home for $220K then all of a sudden your home is valued at $220K+ because some buyers felt it was worth $220K to live in that area.

If your neighbor asked $210K and had it on the market for 12-18 months and ended up selling for $180K and the guy across the street had his on the market for 6 months and sold his for $178K, your home just depreciated down to the $170K-$180K price line.

In SF realtors were knocking on doors of homes that weren't even for sale offering owners $100K-$200K-$300K over the value of the homes, why…demand Vs supply.

I know that my case is the exception and not the rule, but here goes my little surprise morph story. I bought my BP from a local pet store, and the owner of the store breeds the little guys to sell there, so they are CBB. I picked out the one that I wanted, and the owner asked me if I was planning on breeding BP's. I said no, and that was that. A month later in the same store looking around, he asked how my snake was doing, I told him everything was fine. We then started talking about his breeding and he told me that the snake I bought from him is 50% het for pied. He said that he doesn't bother trying to make any more money off of a 50% het...but he had some 100% het's that he was trying to sell me! I asked him if he had any documentation to prove it, he declined. Bottomline...you just never know, if he is telling the truth, I could have a surprise somewhere in the very, very distant future, that would be nice.

Possible het males are frequently dumped into the pet trade because of the lack of demand. Once 100% het male prices reach a certain low watermark, people don't even want to bother with possible het males.

Not unusual at all. ;)

-adam

Just look at Albino boas, Albino boas have dropped in price to $750-$900.

You can buy male 100% Hets now for as low as $75.00 (no more than a normal), females still fetch $200-$250, but are sometimes given away with the purchase of an Albino male for $900-$1000.

here here Adam. Breeding snakes is just like breeding dogs or cats, or whatever. The more rare something is, the more valuable it is, and when the demand is high, well people are willing to pay more. Breeders of top show dogs charge thousands of dollars just ofr stud fees...and lots of people pay it to!! Hell, i remember when people were paying thousands of dollars for those darn beanie babies!!! I'd much rather invest the money in a nice pair of het pieds or something.....Like y'all said, don't blame the seller, question the buyer....its only worth what someone's willing to pay.

A snakes value can also be calculated on what the breeder is doing project wise. Some breeders wouldn't pay $500 for a adult albino, as they are concentrating on projectswhich don't need albinos in them.(assuming you are not allowed to resell the animal!!) A breeder who hatches out several snakes of a certain type that he/she is attempting to prove out or needs for certain breeding projects will put a higher price on those snakes as they are worth more to that particular person.
I love pieds, and pay more for a pied snake than I would ever pay for a caramel albino for instance. I want cinnamon pastels for a project and will eventually pay through the nose for a pair. But I really need them for the project so I don' tmind paying the extra.
w.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

I want cinnamon pastels for a project and will eventually pay through the nose for a pair.

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:blowkiss: :w00t: :hump:

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

:blowkiss: :w00t: :hump:

-adam

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Whoa! Settle down man!

Well I guess its okay, that's how you roll, right?:P

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Originally Posted by JBallPython

Whoa! Settle down man!

Well I guess its okay, that's how you roll, right?:P

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LMAO! ... now yer gettin it. ;)

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

LMAO! ... now yer gettin it. ;)

-adam

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What? A good leg humping? :P

That is so helpful Adam. This was your cue to step up and go "Hey! I have cinnamon to sell you really cheap." but do you? Nope.
sigh.....

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

That is so helpful Adam. This was your cue to step up and go "Hey! I have cinnamon to sell you really cheap." but do you? Nope.
sigh.....

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Cheap? No comprendo.

:P

-adam

I can see what you are saying. I have had Micro Econ in school and pretty much understand the supply and demand thing. I made an A in the class. I just didn't understand how those can start with an elivated price, but I have a grasp of it now. So now after pondering this all day. I am torn. If one day I am able to obtain one of those snakes for 25K would I turn around and sell the babies for 1K each to force peoples prices down. Provided my snakes were of the same quality or even perceived quality, or would I jump on the bandwagon and charge market price. I know that everything is worth what someone will pay for it. You guys just have to realize I don't think like everyone else does so when I start threads like this its not to flame, blast or deface anyone or anything. Its a conversation starter because I want to get others input on the subject.

Adam I will stop with the speculation on whenterh I may possibly have hets for Pied, but you have to admit there is a chance. Heck I have a chance to win the lotery because I do play at times, and people do win the thing. I could win the BP lotery and have two snakes that were just bread to be bread to get BPs for sale and I lucked up and did manage to get het pied unknowingly. I will stop putting it in my thread untill I hatch some eggs out. I will either be posting a thread with the title along the lines of I have babies, or title it something like I have hit the lottery!! :P

No matter how good a breeder (I know your a good one because of your fabulous snakes) or how much newbie luck I have. Neither one of us can know one way or the other 100% sure until I sucessfully hatch some hegs and either do or do not get pied snakes. Only time would tell, and if they do not turn out to be then I will be glad to say you were right. All though if I do get pied babies then I would like to be called one lucky SOB :D LOL Thanks everyone

if you forked out 25k, would you really sell the babies for 1k? my thoughts are that whatever price you choose, one person can't "force" someone else's prices down. unless you had several thousand breeders and really saturated the market. i.e. if you had 20 babies priced way low, you would only have 20 customers. not enough to lower the market. 20,000 babies/customers would be another story! lol interesting topic...

vaughn

Vaughn You have a point, BUT all it takes is one breeder to get noticed for having good quality snakes at lower than market prices. Then Competition starts. Back when the airline tax expired, but airlines did not lower their prices to reflect the no more tax price. Sales went on for a little while then all it took was one small little carrier to lower prices and every major airline followed suit. If you had one of those 25k Males and good number of females. (provided the male was strong enough and health) it may take a few years, but you would recoup the 25K. As I said I am torn and duno what I would do if given the chance. Breeding snakes is not going to be my business of choice. An Orchid nursery is, but I do want to breed and get a nice collection of morphs. So I will have a small private breeding program going on, but even those can get pretty big and would need to sell off snakes at some point in time. So if someone else or myself was to buy the 25K morph basicly for a collection to have, but bread it along the way and had some spare snakes to sell consitantly that small breeder could easily get a waiting list if he so chose to for his nice snakes and if word spread enough he could potentialy lower the market. Now this is all theoretical, and the big breeders ma not budge out of stuborness. Its all good though. I;m probably the only twisted person who would think about selling babies from a 25K snake for 1K to facilitate the market prices to go down. Because think of it this way. If I was to do that the that means there would be a snake that the finacialy chalenged could buy to breed and the numbers of snakes would increase with each generation definately causeing the prices to lower because of the increase in supply of snakes. IT would just make it easier for the average hobby breeder to obtain these fine speciamans if someone would do something like that.

good points jb, i like this discussion. here's another viewpoint of mine. let's use the 25k example selling at 1k. if you had 20 or so babies, and let's say there are about 500 people that had money to spend that wanted that snake, who would the other 480 buy from? my thought are that people with money to spend and know what they want aren't going to wait on a list. and i know a few people that would buy up all of the 1k babies in one shot and re-sell them.


vaughn

That is true. Sometimes I have more noble thought than what would accualy work in the real world sometimes. No matter how much one person trus to make it better for everyone there are always others that will turn around and undermine your efforts. I never thought about someone buying and then reselling, but your absolutely right that would probably happen. So my efforts would be futile. Oh well, it was a good thought and effort, but now that you bring it up it will not work out like I hoped. All though I could limit the purchase to 2 or maybe 3 snakes a person, but if they had the money then they would just buy from another breeder. I'm thinking like a person with a budget. LOL Oh well it was worth a shot.

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Originally Posted by JB_Orchidguy

No matter how good a breeder (I know your a good one because of your fabulous snakes) or how much newbie luck I have. Neither one of us can know one way or the other 100% sure until I sucessfully hatch some hegs and either do or do not get pied snakes. Only time would tell, and if they do not turn out to be then I will be glad to say you were right.

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I can't be sure that next time I sit on the toilet that I won't get sucked down into the sewer ... but that's not going to stop me next time I have to take a dunk.

There's reality and then there's fantasy ... I've been around ball pythons for a long time and have heard everyones pipe dreams .... and in all my years, I know one thing for certain ... there are no short cuts. ;)

-adam

i don't know if i'm 100% correct. there is no right or wrong, just opinions. and we are free to sell at whatever price each of us want to. at some point and time the bp morphs will come down as supply increases each year, how long i'm clueless! lol. but as many morphs as there are, there is always a new combo each season too. you could have an effect on markets if you produced alot of babies like thousands. but after paying for a shop to keep thousands and housing,feeding and cleaning expenses i doubt that anyone could afford to sell cheap. just my thoughts.

vaughn

I know I know. Thanks for being a good sport about it Adam.

BTW ( scratching my head) I didn't realize you were a miget and small enough to fit down in the sewer. LOL Just messing. Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions and putting up with me :D . I will have more questions in the time ahead. :P


:worship: Thanks Adam :worship:

And everyone else too!!!

Well Vaughn like I said BPs would be a hobby of mine. I;m a collecter at heart. After I become a nurse I plan on expanding my Orchid operation so I can start a business selling orchids. The snakes I would be keeping for myself and as I said breeding for myself, but I couldn't keep everything. When I start getting alot of snakes I will start to raise my own feeders. I already want 5 to 10 acers of land and a couple large GHs. I also want to setup a shed type enclosure for cool growing orchids that would get too hot in a GH. It woudln't be but a couple of grand to get another shed and insilate it for a Herp room. Since I want a collection of various morphs anyways thats already an expence I cannot factor into the exuation because those are for personal pleasure and not for a business aspect. I am by no means planning on being so big that I need emplyees to help care for the collection. Now that doesn't mean thats a definate. I may end up liking it and turn out to be a good breeder and may want to make that part of the business, but thats not the plan.

sounds good josh, when you do it, put me on your 1k list! no joke. nice discussion.


vaughn

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Originally Posted by JB_Orchidguy

If one day I am able to obtain one of those snakes for 25K would I turn around and sell the babies for 1K each to force peoples prices down.

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And when a wholesaler comes in a buys your 20 snakes for 1K each and flips them for 12K each (which would mean that you just missed out on $220,000.00 in profit) I will laugh my ace off! :laughing:

-adam

Yeah yeah Vaughn already brought that up Adam :fork: he he he. Then I rebutted that I would limit sale to 2 or 3 snakes per person. Or better yet limit it to public people NOT wholesalers!! Just like some of those used car dealers do when selling alot of cars really cheap. But not to far before that I said I didn't think of that and said that my idea wouldn't work because no matter how much someone wants to make things better for the little guy there are always people out there to muck it all up. Its part of the capitalist system get all those unrealized profits possible. Capitalism a double edged sword, much like anything else.

alright this was a good discussion until "politics" was brought up! lol now it is going to get boring... ball morphs is way more exciting than "politics" it's past my bedtime!


vaughn

LMAO :neener:

:giggle: :picknose: :stupidme: :roach:

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Originally Posted by JB_Orchidguy

Then I rebutted that I would limit sale to 2 or 3 snakes per person. Or better yet limit it to public people NOT wholesalers!!

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You severely underestimate the intelligence and business savvy of the wholesalers in the reptile trade .... If you are selling animals worth 25k for 1k each ... they WILL get them from you ... you may not realize it, but they will end up in someone’s hands that will end up flipping them for a lot more. Ball python morphs are big business and if you don't know how the game works, you'll get run right over.

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Originally Posted by JB_Orchidguy

no matter how much someone wants to make things better for the little guy there are always people out there to muck it all up.

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If you really wanted to help "the little guy" then why spend money on snakes at all ... if you’re truly concerned about "the little guy", instead of spending that initial 25k on a snake, why not use the money to feed hungry children ... 25K could buy a lot of meals .... or even better ... produce those 20 animals worth 25K ... sell them FOR WHAT THEY ARE WORTH ... make $500,000.00 ... keep the $20,000.00 that you would have made for yourself selling them at 1K each and donate the remaining $480,000.00 to a worthy charity.

So you’re saying that given an opportunity that most people will NEVER have (being able to spend 25K on a single snake) … the best you can come up with is basically giving the offspring away to help people get a cool snake? … Sounds like the squandering of tremendous opportunities to me.

-adam

:aww: When put that way Adam it makes sence. Its a Hypothetical sitiation coming from an indevidual, who at the moment could never afford to spend almost 3/4 of his yearly income on one snake. You will come to find I am a strange person sometimes. :P Its me getting frustrated for not being able to have something I would like to. Rebel at heart can't help it. LOL I never said I was a philanthropist I just would like to help spread a neat looking mutation to the hobby keepers, but you have excelent points. Make the money and at the same time increase the supply to help lower demand. LOL And besides I said i was torn and didn't know what way I would go if given the opportunity.


I was just parusing your website and read about the mixxing of 2 " "Cinnies" together, you can produce a solid black snake with zero pattern! ". :eyepoppin That would be nice too. Alot more dreaming to do. And I just keep telling myself oneday I might have that one or that one or that one :bye:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Ball python morphs are big business and if you don't know how the game works, you'll get run right over.

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I knowe this is now off topic, but why does everyone have to be so merciless and out for blood? What happened to just being into it for fun, but still having the opportunity to have some of the great morphs out there.


BTW also noticed some of your prices for male Hets and I could see myself paying 500 for a Het and 2k for a female. Just not anytime soon. I have 2 years of nursing school to go through after I finish 4 more classes of core.

Here's another thought.


Me, being a reasonable consumer would look at your snakes and say, Hrmm... Adam's snakes are $25k, and this newb guy claims to have the same snakes for $1k. They might look like pieds, they might smell like pieds, you might have great references, but the truth is that if the breeders I trust are selling the same snakes at $25k, I'm not going to trust anything I buy for less than $25k.

Now you'll manage to sell your 20 snakes for $1000.00 each and make a cool $20k. Then you'll look around and notice that all the other pieds that were on the market sold anyway, despite your low prices, and you'll figured out you just threw away $480,000.

There are VERY few people that will leave that kind of money on the table, and even if you believe you ARE one of those people, I think it fair to warn you about Adam. Check out this link:
http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=28190

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Originally Posted by JB_Orchidguy

I knowe this is now off topic, but why does everyone have to be so merciless and out for blood? What happened to just being into it for fun, but still having the opportunity to have some of the great morphs out there.

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Millions of dollars change hands every year in this business ... some people are in it for fun ... others are in it strictly for the money ... it's no different than any other business.

There are a lot of people that operate on the "hobby" level and that's cool ... but where you're talking 25K, 50K, 120K, 200K investments, it's a whole nother ball game. Fortunes are being made and lost on ball python mutations ... if you're in the game and you know how to make money, you'll do well for yourself ... and if you love the animals too, well that's a bonus. ;)

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Black skully ... check.
Baseball bats ... check.
Case of Mickeys Big Mouths ... check.

Let's roll bro-ham! ;)

It's a "street" thing ... that's just how I roll! :P

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If this is what your talking about. I have no doubt!!

Just never underestimate the new guy. No one here knows how I role or have roled. Not trying to start anything by no means. I like Adam and he has changed my mind about the 1k BP from 25K stock thing. I'm done with that. I was just venting is all, and if I was able to slam 25K down for a snake I think I would get the market value for the prodigy. Adam is such a good sport for putting up with me during this and other threads. :handshake Give me time to settle in and I will not be sturing up such a debate. ;)

Thanks Adam. :w00t:

I might one day be on the 25k to 200k level of things, but not for a LOOOOONNNGGG while. My dreams and other folks pics will have to do till then.

Well that sounds like a cop-out.. ..just when I thought I was gonna see a fight.


*sigh*... back to Sunday night hockey I guess....

Yeah stick with Hockey. LOL I don't fight unlessI have to. I don;t need to go to jail. I have too many cool snakes I would like to aquire. I don't think they would allow me to build snake racks and keep snakes in Jail. LMAO Besides Adam so far hasn't given me any reason to get pissed much less want to fight.

I know your messin and Hey do you have dish network for your Hockey? he he he :devilish:

Oh I see your in British Columbia Hockey country nevermind. :laughing:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I can't be sure that next time I sit on the toilet that I won't get sucked down into the sewer ... but that's not going to stop me next time I have to take a dunk.

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Pal....I have gone to college for 6 years to ensure that you do not get sucked down your toilet.... you are ok :)

....I need to quit posting after Survivor night....ha ha....gobble gobble :D :beer: :nirvana: :absolut: :puke: :sleepy:

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

Pal....I have gone to college for 6 years to ensure that you do not get sucked down your toilet.... you are ok :)

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Can ya prove it? :P

-adam