Hello everyone. I have a few questions.

First off I would like to say this site is awsome. It has been a wonderful learning experience in just the 2 days of finding this site. I have had my Balls for about 12 years now. Maybe longer. My snakes seem happy, but after reading the caresheet I plan on making some changes. I keep my male and female in the same cage that I built, and everything seems gravy. Although I only have one hidebox and I'm using a heatrock. As I said I plan on makeing changes so don't get upset just yet. My babies have been through alot in the breaf stent they were not with me about 8 years ago. I recieved them back with mites, no water, and really skinny. All is well now though and they are happy from what I can tell. The few questions I have are relativly simple, but I want to confirm them with the folks who know more than I.

The cage I have built is huge, and on the cold side. I plan on rebuilding their cage to a smaller dimention. I know most of you do not condone keeping male and female snakes together, but these two have been together for so long I do not want to spit them up unless for furture breeding purposes. So the question is would the cage size recomendation of 36"x18"x12" be adiquate for these two full grown Balls?

My babies are also picky eaters. They only eat mice. I feed them on average 5 mice/every 2 weeks or so. I know they need to be on a scedual, but they are not in the wild so I am not on a set scedual yet. I will try to get them on one. My snakes are not fat. They used to be when I first had them. I was feeding them every week 2 or 3 mice and I was seeing skinn between scales ar one point. After getting them back from the stent away from me, (longer story), they were skinny. Really Skinny. Now they are at a healthy weight I think. I will post pictures as soon as I can and figur out how to do it on this board. I said they only eat mice, because when I did try to feed a rat pup the snakes struck the rat and imediately released. Didn;'t constrict or attempt to kill it after. What I think is they do not like the course fur of the rats, and prefure the soft fur of a mouse. I have heard of that happening with people who feed their snakes hamsters. Hamsters have even softer fur and snakes get spoiled after a few meels on hamsters. So does it sound ok if I continue feeding the 4 to 5 mice when I feed them. and those guys stop when they are full sometimes the female only eats 3 and I feed the rest to the male since I buy 8 to 10 at a time. Sometimes I have to return extra mice, but thats not to often.

I know this is getting long, but bare with me please.

Now I have been reading and come across the different "morphs". I think my female is a cinnomon pastel. Atleast she looks that color compaired to the pictures on here. I will post pictures for everyone elses opinion. My male is a normal for sure. What classifies a ball to be a pastel?

As I stated earlier these babies have been together for about 10 years now always in the same cage and always together. Even when she was sitting on eggs. She has laid them about 4 or 5 time that I can remember. I haven't had any sucess hatching, but I know the conditions are not correct for the eggs. I will be building an incubater for this next clutch. I cut open one of the dead eggs one time she laid them. It was a few years ago, but if my memory serves me properly the egg I opened had a baby in it that looked like a pieball. I contributed it to the baby not being mature, but aparently that was not the case. Is it possible to get pieballs from a cinnomon pastel female and a male normal? I will try to get pictures up tomorrow after I get home from school (Bio 2 lab), and I am at work right now. Thanks for the info and I look forward to chatting with the breeders on here. I think I will be getting into balls more heavily in the coming years.

Oh one more questions to this already long thread. Why do many people keep snakes in a plastic tote that the beauty of these creatures cannot be appreciated? I understand keeping babies for sale in the shoebox type storage housings, but every snake? I'm just curious and was wondering this. I'm not new to Balls, but I am still extremely green about them. I didn't do my homework on these babies like I did with my orchids, but I am going to fix that. Thanks everyone!!

Josh

Wow, lots of stuff ... I'll take it point by point ...

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Originally Posted by JB_Orchidguy

The cage I have built is huge, and on the cold side.

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Originally Posted by JB_Orchidguy

I know most of you do not condone keeping male and female snakes together, but these two have been together for so long I do not want to spit them up unless for furture breeding purposes.

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Originally Posted by JB_Orchidguy

My babies are also picky eaters.

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All of these things go together … and now you know. ;)

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Originally Posted by JB_Orchidguy

I think my female is a cinnomon pastel.

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If she is, the only way to know is to breed her and see what her offspring look like ... if her look is inheritable, she just might be. ;)

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Originally Posted by JB_Orchidguy

It was a few years ago, but if my memory serves me properly the egg I opened had a baby in it that looked like a pieball. I contributed it to the baby not being mature, but aparently that was not the case.

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Actually, it probably was the case ... color and pattern are expressed during the final stages of development. Most ball pythons that don't make it full term are white or have white elements. Temperature fluctuations around the eggs can also affect pattern and color.

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Originally Posted by JB_Orchidguy

Is it possible to get pieballs from a cinnomon pastel female and a male normal?

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No.

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Originally Posted by JB_Orchidguy

Oh one more questions to this already long thread. Why do many people keep snakes in a plastic tote that the beauty of these creatures cannot be appreciated?

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Because it's the most effective way to provide them with a proper environment ... I don't think it's fair to pass judgment on how other keepers choose to appreciate their animals ... just because it's not how "you" would do it, doesn't make it wrong.

-adam

Oh no please do not take it as passing judgement. If it came accross like that please forgive me. I was not trying to pass judgement by no means. I plan to stay here a while and do not want enimies here on my second day. :D

My babies have always since I got them only wanted to eat mice. Just to note I feed them in cardboard boxxes outside their cage. The female was like that when she was the only one. I will attempt it again when I get a more apporpriate cage built.

I will wait till the next clutch and hopefully I will get them to hatch this time, and the pieball mystery will be solved. Maybe the female is not a pastel, and if that is the case then it would be possible to get a pie? But I think the not full term baby may be the reason for the pie look too. I have the new design in my head for the enclosure and will use a glass bottom with flexwatt for the UTH on one side. That should also be on the side with the ceramic heat emiter for the warm side correct? Was the size ok for the two snakes?

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Originally Posted by JB_Orchidguy

Was the size ok for the two snakes?

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I'm not the right guy to help you with that ... I don't feel that any size cage is "ok" for two snakes.

One snake, one cage. :thumbsup:

-adam

Welcome to the forum! I just moved from Augusta, GA about a year ago. Very cool area.

You've already gotten some good advice, my only other point would be to take that heat rock out and bury it. Or cut the cord and make it into a nice decoration. THEY CAUSE THERMAL BURNS!! Very bad. I don't even know why the make the stupid things. Anyway, that's all I have to add right now. Maybe my brain will kick in a bit mroe in the morning. ;)

Go out and buy two sterilite 41 qt. tubs(measuring 36" x 17" x6") and house both of your ball pythons seperately ;)

In order to produce piebalds, both of your ball pythons would have to be heterzygous piebald(i.e. normal looking ball pythons that carry the pied gene). If you did not purchase the babies as het. piebalds, you have about a 1 in a million chance that they are het pieds.

Welcome to the site! :D

It's extremely unlikely that you have any sort of morph. A cinnamon pastel is worth thousands of dollars and it's unlikely that you just happened to get one. :)

Even though you've had your snakes together a long time, doesn't mean they're happy together. Snakes are solitary creatures and being with another snake 24/7 can actually be very stressful. You may find them to be not such picky eaters if they are on their own, and in a cage of good size with proper temperature gradient.

I have 23 snakes. I keep almost all of them in tubs or racks. I very much appreciate their beauty. That's why I frequently do photography shoots with them. I don't have to be able to look at them all the time in order to appreciate their beauty. Plus that tubs/racks hold heat and humidty MUCH better than any tank.

You will learn a lot here.. enjoy. :)

Welcome to the forum JB. I hope you find it informative as well as meeting other like minded folks.

It's obvious you have a number of husbandry issues you are facing and thinking about making some changes for the betterment of your snakes. Whether you choose to house them in more of a display environment or not, I believe you really should consider seperating them but that will be ultimately your choice. There are many very good reasons for this. I'll address just one of them here however.

The one point I'd like you to think about though is this. Your female has obviously bred to this male a number of times, each clutch being unsuccessful for whatever reasons. To put her through this season after season with no expectation of a good result just for me, doesn't make sense. Leaving them together will only promote breeding that you aren't prepared to manage and take away all that time your female could be just eating, growing and doing well w/o the physical stresses of uncontrolled mating. Also as far as I know, an adult male and female ball python in their natural environment would never associate with each other than for the short breeding time.

I would also ask you to think about that heat rock. They are known to be dangerous. That heat rock may work for years then suddenly badly burn your snakes. We have a rescue boa here that came in with a thermal belly burn of over 3 feet in length from only 1 month's exposure to a heat rock. Please reconsider that heat rock. There are so many other heating options and any of us will gladly steer you to them.

I hope I've not offended you JB. I'd like to see you enjoy the site and learn, as we've all learned and are still learning about different ways to care for this beautiful creatures.


~~Jo~~

ok. I will contimplate seperating these guys, but they have been together for 10 years or more. Would the seperation stress them since the have been togeher for so long, or is that an atribute that doesn't need to be placed on snakes? Thanks for all the advice. I will start planning the new cage/cages. I will probably do a stack configureation if I do use the seperate cage method. I figure it will take a few hours to build the new cages and then another day to properly finish them. Then I can begin warming my babies up and hopefully feeding them rats instead of mice, but if they still refuse rats after warming up could it be they are too used to eating mice over rats since they have been so long on mice? I am also contimplating the shoebox type housings for future juviniles and babies. Although that will come after I perfect my lacking husbandry. Thanks for all your info, and I am sorry for not reading up like this sooner. Thanks goodness my snakes are still health and do not apear to have any ill effect of it. I just had them checked out by a vet for a health and suitability statement. So please its not as bad as it sounds.:lick:

Again I am not trying to pass judgement on how people keep thier babies. I was just curious.

I think it's great JB that you're open to what is being suggested to you! That does show a genuine concern for your snakes rather than some folks who get all bent out of shape and upset if they hear anything they take to be a "bad" comment on their husbandry. It's nice to see your ego isn't getting in the way of caring for these snakes of yours.

I'm also glad you have a vet and the snakes have checked out well recently so you are at least starting this transition in husbandry with healthy adults.

Anytime you make a change, even for the best reasons, it can stress out a snake. After all they don't have the capacity to understand it but just like things I do for my 4 kids, sometimes you just have to do what is right whether they get it or not at first LOL. Provided with two seperate enclosures that are set up properly to allow for two hides, proper temps, proper humidity and a nice thermal gradient for them....I bet they will settle right in and do very well for you.

Like any new environment though, once you get to that point....give them lots of alone time to settle in and check out their new digs. Give them a week or two without anything more than basic husbandry and I bet they will be just as happy as a pig in....well you get my point LOL.


~~Jo~~

Greetings and welcome to the forum.

It's nice to see that you have such a positive attitude when it comes to your snakes being that you have had them for such a long time. Quite often people are very defensive when it comes to how they have been doing things because "it works".

Anyway, it seems that Adam has answered many of your questions. I just wanted to add a couple of things. First of all, it is unlikely that you have a Cinnamon Pastel. Not impossible, just unlikely. Although you got your snakes when there weren't many ball morphs and people didn't know much about them, they still went through a lot of hands before getting to you and dealers tend to pick out the unique ones along the way. To help you identify it you can take a look at the Hunter's Guide to Morphs, specifically the Cinnamon Pastel.

Now about the plastic containers. There are a number of reasons that people choose these containers including: Cost, environmental control, space optimization, and they're easy to keep clean. They are very cheap, they hold humidity and temperatures much better than glass, they can stack easily in a rack. I have 17 snakes and couldn't imagine keeping 17 glass tanks around the house. Finally, they are very easy to keep clean. Ball pythons by nature are very shy and usually come out at night when the lights are off, so we're not missing much by not being able to see a lot of nice furniture, although I do see the appeal. Besides, the plastic containers offer some security to the snakes due to their opaque quality, yet one can easily see in to check on their snakes.

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Originally Posted by JB_Orchidguy

Then I can begin warming my babies up and hopefully feeding them rats instead of mice, but if they still refuse rats after warming up could it be they are too used to eating mice over rats since they have been so long on mice?

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Wow, a lot of responses by the time I got mine posted. I was going to comment on the mice and was surprised that Adam didn't. There is nothing wrong with feeding them mice instead of rats. They're used to mice and you might have a difficult time switching them over, but I see no reason to switch if they're both eating well and it's convenient for you.

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Wow, a lot of responses by the time I got mine posted. I was going to comment on the mice and was surprised that Adam didn't. There is nothing wrong with feeding them mice instead of rats. They're used to mice and you might have a difficult time switching them over, but I see no reason to switch if they're both eating well and it's convenient for you.

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I was just overwhelmed from all the reading and typing ... LOL ... good catch though ... rats or mice ... no difference ... I agree. ;)

-adam

Thanks everyone!! No offence is taken at all. In fact my female has already been burned bu the heatrock. I thought it was an electrical burn because I used to feed them in their cage when I was 16/17 and the cord was chewed by a mouse. I replaced the rock after finding the burn, but never associated it to the heatrock. It will be removed then I get home. She has healed fine. They do not use it anyways. I admit my technique is lacking, and that is why I am here reading and learning. I am receptive to constructive critisism. I think I am going to take the advice of getting 3 sterilite toate to keep them in, and take my time to build a nice seperate enclosure for each. I know the uncontroled breeding has happened a number of times, but I plan to be ready for the eggs next time it happens. I am older now and at 27 I have learned to put my mind to a goal and stick with it. Its the only way I have been able to raise and grow over 100 orchids. Now I am devoting energy to my babies who I have obviously been neglecting for years, but thats about to change. I will go look through the caging section and find out the best way to warm the sterilite containers. Now that I know the problems I am facing I will fix them and give everyone that may read this and cring, as I do when I hear about bad orchid culture, a reason to be proud. I will attept to keep them on a feeding scedual and move them up to rats if they will take them. It will be easier on the pockets too.

I will post pictures of my babies tomorrow after taking new pictures. Unless I can talk my wife into taking pictures for me and emailing them to me at work. Then I can let more experienced folks tell me if my female is a normal or not. From what is being said she is a normal. I think I opnly paid 20 bucks for her when I got her, and the male I bought from a friend that was moving I think for 45. I know he is a normal, but she looks light and similar to pictures of pastels. I know she was farm rased from what the pet store guy told me oh so long ago. She was already a juvi when I got her I would say about 2 foot or maybe shorter. Not big at all, but she was bigger than the ones I normaly see at superpets. When I bought the female I was unaware of balls that were pastel or the other morphs. The petstore guy who was a herp guy didn't even say anything about that. This was a small local store not a big chain. He was one of the owners of the store. Maybe I lucked up, maybe she is normal. Only time will tell, and I will love them the same, but I hope to get into the spectacular morphs. I especialy like the bumblebee balls., and the pieball that are almost all white except the head. Big money for one of those I'm sure. Thanks for all the help, and you can stop cringing now. Things will get better and I will be asking more questions to perfect my technique. Oh and they will be seperated if not tomorrow early next week. I have to work this weekend and I work nights so..... Thanks everyone. Please feel free to give advice, just please don't be to hard on me :oops: I should have done it sooner, but it will be done right now.

I just want to add that I love orchids. :)

Thanks everyone for the replies. Xdeus sent the link to what a cinnamon Pastel would look like. I have to say I think my female looks like the snakes on the top pictures. She is dramaticly lighter than my male. I'm not going to get all excited because I could just be hopeing to hard. I will post pictures tomorrow of them both and ask for expert opinions. As i siad I would be happy either way,but having an unknwon diamond would be nice too. Thanks everyone I will definately switch them to the sterilite containers. I need to get that big bulky cage out out of the computer room and save money for the incubater project. I will be successfull this time. I am in learning mode and appreciate everyones husbandry help. BTW I am a quick learner too. So rest assured. Thanks for being so receptive to me too, and not bashing me to much for my lack of skills. :P

I haven't looked yet, but if there is an off topic picture section I will post some pictures of orchids that have bloomed recently for you April. I have a splendid little mini hybrid thats in bloom now and so lovely. Its abreviation is Ocd, but I can't remember for the life of me what it stands for it is labeled properly and a nice little thing. :D

Yep there's the off-topic cafe. I'd love to see some of your beauties. I don't have any orchids, but I love looking at them. So exotic.

Someday I'll try my hand at keeping them. :)

April they are really easy. Once you learn how to take care of them its a breeze. Basicly like snakes. Once you know and have things down its easy as pie. I have some orchids that I have had trouble blooming, but thats not the norm. Some are pickier than nothers, but by no means difficult. Like I tell everyone, Its just different than most plants. Believe it or not I can kill Aloe and people say that is so easy to grow. You just need to know the conditions you can give and then fit what will go good for your conditions. And with over 25,000 different species and countless hybreds, I'm sure you will find more than a few you can grow that apeal to you. They range from flowers 1/8 of an inch across to about 6 to 7 inches across. Sweet fragrence to stinky foul smelling. From a full grown plant fitting in a 2 inch pot to a mamoth gramatiphylum that can fill a 12 x 12 GH if left undevided. So once you find the time to learn I can point you in the proper dirrection and help myself with any questions. I am by no means the end all athority, but I have read so much on them that I have alot of facts. It will soon be like that with balls. I knwo I did it backwards and learned a new thing first before the snakes I already owned, but what I was doing worked so I wasn't concerned about changing. I found the site by accident last night and now I am rethinking the "its working" attitude and open to how it should be done for the benefit of my babies. Sorry they don't have names. They are known as boy snake and girl snake. Its just stuck for so long they will probably stay like that.


P.S. the offer to learning a secondary hobby of orchids is open to anyone who is interested. Just PM me. I am willing to give info to get info.:D Thanks again everyone!!! I love getting the excited feeling you get when you know your about to do things right when you have been doing it wrong for so long. Thanks again!!

Hm.. well my aloe is growing. :) I unfortunately don't have room for any orchids right now, but I'd still like to see some of yours.

You better start a thread in the off topic cafe before this thread is totally hijacked. lol

LOL yeah I know. It happens sometimes. I will start a new one tomorrow in the off topic section and it will have some photo for everyone. I also hope to have the new tubs for the snakes too to post in the caging section. I'm still learning how to regulate things. Thanks again everyone.

We're happy to help Josh and again I congratulate you on being receptive to these concerns expressed and suggestions offered.


~~Jo~~

Well guys/gals. I feel like such an idiot. After all the talk of feelin lucky and may of ended up with a Cinnamon yeah sure. Its funny how the mind plays tricks on you when you try to remember something. She is a normal. I will still post pictures, but just to show themoff. Thanks everyone. I am still torn between building two smaller custom cages os getting the tubs. I realize the tubs are easy and many people use them. I just do not know if I would feel comfortable housing them in a cage I cannot fully see in like the tubs. I'm still torn. Thanks everyone.

There's nothing wrong with a custom made cage, especially if you're only planning on keeping your two for a while. You might even be able to design one with a divider and save on heat by using one strip of heat tape that they can share. If you are going to build a cage, try to make it enclosed by avoiding wire mesh. If you're going to use a material like plywood or even melamine, make sure you seal it. There are plenty of suggestions on cages in this forum and around the web. Good luck!