Death Wish or learning opportunity

I have an opportunity to get a whole bunch of bp's from a not-so-reputable source. The snakes would be captive hatched or farmed at best, however I would be able to get them for free.

It is likely that many of the snakes I receive would be in ill health, but I have the means to quarantine them from my current snakes (seperate building), and I think the opportunity to learn first hand about snake ailments would be helpful.

Though I am just learning, I'm sure I can provide for the snakes better than what they are currently receiving.

Would I be crazy to recieve snakes from such a source? Are the vet bills going to be insane? The learning opportunity and the chance to help the snakes is worth something to me, but I want to be careful not to get in way over my head.

Any thoughts?

Hmmmmm....well, while the snakes themselves might be "free" the costs could certainly skyrocket. Vet bills are the most obvious biggie...but what about housing? What about heating? Just looking for supplies to house and heat ONE snake properly I'm finding tons of ways to spend more money than I thought I would need to. Then there's feeding, too. Lots of bp's means LOTS of mice and/or rats.


And what about the time commitment involved in taking care of so many rescue animals all at once? Maybe Rusty will see this and chime in about how much time and effort goes into her rescues.

Now, I don't know what sort of life-style you lead. Only you can judge whether you truly have the time and the temperment to take on such a responsibility. But please, please, please think long and hard about doing this, rather than letting yourself get caught up in the excitement of the moment. Count up the cost of taking on this tremendous responsibility....then multiply that by 100 or so because you're most likely drastically underestimating the true cost.

i dont see the point in taking the risk to get free possibly ill normal balls. i am assuming they are hatchlings correct? you are better off spending the money on getting some from a good breeder that you can expect quality from, than spending the money on vet bills and tylenol for yourself down the road.

Housing and feed is cheap. I work at a pet store, so I can get all but the tubs for free.

Time is not a factor. I have plenty.

Temperment is not a factor. The doctors give me all kinds of great medications that keep me in reasonable spirits not matter what happens.

Yes, they would be hatchlings.

The main point with taking the risk on the normal balls is to learn first hand about the different problems I can encounter with snakes.

In short, I am questioning whether the experience I will gain with the "free" snakes will add significant value to my ability to care for more expensive balls.

Please note that I am not suggesting that the value of a free snake is any less than the value of an expensive snake. The only difference is the cost. I would treat a free snake the same way I would treat an expensive snake.

You'd probably save money in the long run just buying normal CB hatchlings. I know of several people who sell female hatchlings for $65 and less and males for $45 and less. Shop around and get good quality animals. Just my opinion. :)

Lemme get this straight...you have the chance to basicly save alot of ball pythons and give them a good home?

I think the answers obvious :)

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Originally Posted by digitalkitteh

Just my opinion. :)

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Just nothing..


If I didn't value everyone's opinion I wouldn't bother posting! =)

I also hope Rusty chimes in here Spencer as she's got solid experience with rescues. What I can say about taking in snakes with problems is only from the little experience I've had with a few of them.

First off, I wouldn't even consider it unless you have a very good herp vet you can turn to at a moment's notice let alone the whole issue of costs entailed for fecals, exams, meds, etc.

I'm not sure what your current level of experience is with bp's but I can tell you Mike and I went through a LOT of worry and stress over our rescues and yes we are having success with them but it could have just as easily gone bad. With one non-eating wild caught rescue we talked about euthenasia before we even brought her home so we were prepared if there were no other options for her. That never had to happen but I feel if you are taking in rescues you have to know when enough is enough and be prepared for failure as much as you are for success.

I applaud you for wanting to help these snakes but think it through considering all the possibilities. Also, depending on where you are getting them from, will the "supplier" just go back out and get more thinking there's now a market for their sad product?


~~Jo~~

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Originally Posted by srozell

I have an opportunity to get a whole bunch of bp's from a not-so-reputable source. The snakes would be captive hatched or farmed at best, however I would be able to get them for free.

It is likely that many of the snakes I receive would be in ill health, but I have the means to quarantine them from my current snakes (seperate building), and I think the opportunity to learn first hand about snake ailments would be helpful.

Though I am just learning, I'm sure I can provide for the snakes better than what they are currently receiving.

Would I be crazy to recieve snakes from such a source? Are the vet bills going to be insane? The learning opportunity and the chance to help the snakes is worth something to me, but I want to be careful not to get in way over my head.

Any thoughts?

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If you give them a home, it would only encourage the "not-so-reputable" folks from bringing in more sick snakes into the world and that is never a good thing. The only way to shut them down is not take in their animals, free or not and report them to the authorities.

If you decide to take them, make sure that you contact your vet and ask him or her if they could give you a better rate for treating the numerous snakes. Also, make sure that you have your setup(preferably a rack system) ready to go beforehand so that they can have the best home possible when they get there. Good luck.

I just have one question, if you do decided to take the bps, what will happen in the long run? To keep most for the next few decades will definetly burn a hole in your wallet, so do you plan on selling them to good homes or what? :confused:

Absolutely excellent question Danielle! Wish I had thought to mention that myself LOL. It's so important to know what will happen to a rescue or at least have some sort of plan. When we took Rauri in we actually already had his forever home sorted out with Becky so it was just about getting him rehabbed and giving him a home over the winter till he can be safely shipped. With our ball pythons we knew we would either incorporate them eventually into our breeding dreams or keep them with us until appropriate homes could be found however long that took.


~~Jo~~

Ok here is my take on this....... rescueing snakes is cool and all that and the bedding and caging you can get for free as you say.... but... and here it is...


the cost of medical bills for all of them if they are in need of medical attention could get high IMO esp. with several rescues to care for. It could actually cost you ALOT more than you think it will. In the end, yes it may be experience, but whether it is good or bad who knows right now as you dont have them in your possession ATM and dont really know what shape they are in.

Also, in the end, if you decide to sell them, you will still lose $, because you will never sell them for what you put into them financially to nurse them back to health.

Buy/Trade/Take in snakes that you actually want ... if they get sick, you'll get a crash course in identifying and treating illness .... experience comes with time ... there are no shortcuts.

-adam

Depends on how many. If its like six to ten or less, i say go for it. One of my best big breeder females was a rescue....and i take unwanted snakes from time to time, and either keep them or place them with a new home. However, if its too many, i would say no, because besides the money and time which doesn't really seem to be a prob for you,you might be investing your emotions into it as well, and i wouldn't want you to be discouraged if some of them were to pass or get seriously ill, as well as frustrated if you couldn't get many to eat. Good luck with whatever you choose!

I really appreciate all your comments.


I think the most valid point made was that by getting these snakes from this source of ill-repute I would be encouraging him to get more.

Based on what I've read here I will instead buy a bunch from someone with good balls, and gain my experience as a result of having many good snakes.

Thanks again!

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

experience comes with time ... there are no shortcuts.

-adam

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Not to hijack my own thread, but...


You are correct in that there are no shortcuts, but there are two components of experience. Time is one, and activity is another.;)

Who is better experienced at driving?

Someone who has had a driver's liscence for 30 years and drove/rode 100,000 miles or someone who had their drivers licence for 10 years and drove/rode 1,000,000 miles.

Actually, the answer isn't obvious. someone who had a liscence for 30 years may have had significant other experiences that make him a better driver, however the same person may also have sat on his couch living in ignorance for 30 years.

The moral of the story is that any personal growth counts towards your experience in almost all activities, so like dudettes and dudes, go out there and become better at something every day.

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Originally Posted by srozell

Someone who has had a driver's liscence for 30 years and drove/rode 100,000 miles or someone who had their drivers licence for 10 years and drove/rode 1,000,000 miles.

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Well, if those guys did all that driving for the sole purpose of accumulating those miles rather than for the love of driving in the first place than they are both donkies.

Get my point?

-adam

Spencer!
0.2 Hep Albino BP
2.2 Rats

Whatis a Hep Albino?

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Well, if those guys did all that driving for the sole purpose of accumulating those miles rather than for the love of driving in the first place than they are both donkies.

Get my point?

-adam

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Good point. Not to fill this thread with metaphors but... you can play a sport for years, how good you actually get at it depends on the time and dedication you put into improving your skills (whether it be catching/throwing/husbandry/breeding/etc.).

Not to be a smartass but theres also plenty people who drive for 30-50 years and cant drive worth a crap compaired to someone whos been doing it for 1-10 years

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Originally Posted by JASBALLS

Spencer!
0.2 Hep Albino BP
2.2 Rats

Whatis a Hep Albino?

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lol.. it's a typo. :D Thank you I'll fix that.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Get my point?

-adam

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I'm not entirely sure, but this is my take.

You are a reputable "snakester". You love your pythons, and out of that love you developed into a breeder. Because you love your snakes, you are a good breeder that people are likely to take seriously. If you had no interest in the snakes, you would not likely be a good breeder, nor a "snakester" for that matter.

If I, on the otherhand, was simply setting out to accumulate snakes for the sake of having more "toys" than the next guy, I would be less likely to give them quality care, and I wouldn't be doing myself or the snakes any favours.

In the end, the numbers aren't the bottom line, the passion is. It is because of this passion that I was considering these less than good snakes. The money was not the issue. If I simply wanted more toys, I wouldn't be asking questions, I'd be bragging about how well I was doing.

I *have* driven millions of miles in my life. I drive because I love it. I love driving in the rain, at night, in the mountains, on snow or on ice. I've watched a father hold a dying child in his arms, as another child lay dead beside him, while still one more was pinned in an upside down car screaming. I saw the aftermath of what happened to my cousins as their life was torn apart because the mom was killed in a car accident. I've seen trucks roll and I've administered to old ladies as they lay covered in their own blood waiting for the ambulance to come. The sad thing in all the cases I mentioned above was that the drivers all "thought" they knew what they were doing, and so believing, they blinded themselves to the dangers that lay ahead.

Why is this relevant? Through my experience I have learned never to take for granted what know, and never assume I have things under control. This applies to my snakes as it does to my diving, driving, family relations, etc.

Am I a better snake keeper than you Adam? Heavens no, but it does no justice to snakes to discourage someone from learning how to be a better "snakester" by telling them time is the only way they can learn.

My intent is not to put anyone in their place, but in truth Adam, because of your reputation, many put you on a pedestal. With the recognition comes the responsibility to educate and encourage, and I look forward to learning much from you as I continue in this hobby.

I was just curious as to the number of snakes you were talking about taking in?

Without knowing that, may I suggest that you sit yourself down at the kitchen table and do two things...

First, write up a list of Pros and Cons in regards to the hypothetical situation of you having the responsability of "x" amount of snakes in varies degrees of health.

Second: Sit down somewhere where it is peaceful and there isn't anyone or anything to distract you. While you're there, think with your head instead of your heart.

I'm not trying to come across as someone who knows everything, nor am I trying to discourage anyone from opening their home to an animal in need. I'm going to go out on a limb ( as I am still relatively new to this forum an don't know everyone personally), but I believe everyone here is here for one thing and only one thing: mutual love of animals and specifically snakes in general weither it is the Royals, Kings, Bulls, Corns, Cobras, etc. With that in mind, I don't think that anyone here on the forum would deny an unfortunate animal a second chance, a lease on life as it were, if they knew without a second thought that they could provide a mistreated animal with a better enviroment and a better life.

I am, myself, an animal lover to the point that YES if it ever came to the point where I had to sacrefice feeding myself or my pet, I would be the one going without food. My heart breaks everytime that I read/watch a story about neglect in every form, which is the instigator for my very opinionated attitude that does tend to rub people the wrong way...But, back on track....

Say we're talking 1-5 snakes, now I don't see a problem with a single person who is devoted to these breath-taking reptiles having too much of strain taking adequete care of them on their own. But, anything over ten non-breeding animals, I believe that even the most super human of people need help from somewhere and someone.

If you do decide that this something that you wish to prusue, my advice would be to have a contingency plan(s) in place. Where are they all going to go if you get overwhelmed? Who is going to be there in case you decide that you need more then a few day vacation to feed them/take care of them? Then there's the money issue: how can you support them all and still take care of yourself/your household? On this subject, I'd advise that you breed your own feeders weither you feed live or dead/frozen. In my experience with my own pets and with friends both on and off the internet, this is the best way to go finacially. The feeders foods isn't really as expensive as say purchasing 300+ mice to feed these guys for say roughly 2-6 months (depending on the ages and amount of snakes you'll be dealing with).

Basic husbandry is an issue all in itself, but I see that others have already left good comments, so...

Though I do agree that the educatonal value balances nicely with the finacial side of things. But in the end, it depends entirely on the individual.

So, basically what I'm trying to say is while your heart might be in the right place, sometimes we have to listen to what our brain is saying no matter how hard it is to face the truth.

Perhaps, instead of nursing them all on your own, you should try and find other snake owners/lovers to help you: share the burden if you will.

Personally, if the stupid bylaws in my city were different, I'd offer my home to as many as I could take in this very instant. If you do decide to take these animals in, please let me know and as soon as I have found a place to settle into, I will be more then happy to take some of them in myself.

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Originally Posted by srozell

Am I a better snake keeper than you Adam? Heavens no, but it does no justice to snakes to discourage someone from learning how to be a better "snakester" by telling them time is the only way they can learn.

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Why do you have to turn it into someone being "better"? You asked for opinions and I gave mine. I never suggested that anyone was "better" than anyone else and I never tried to "discourage" anyone from doing anything. I merely gave my opinion.

Earlier in the post you said ....

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Originally Posted by srozell

I think the opportunity to learn first hand about snake ailments would be helpful.

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... as well as ...

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Originally Posted by srozell

In short, I am questioning whether the experience I will gain with the "free" snakes will add significant value to my ability to care for more expensive balls.

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My "point" (which was very obviously missed) was that taking in more snakes because you are passionate, if you can care for the properly is awesome, but if your motivation for taking in those snakes is only to get "experience" in order to "add signifcant value to your ability to care for more expensive balls" then you are a donkey.

If you were really passionate about taking in the "free" snakes, why come to a message board with your dilemma? If you REALLY wanted them, then you'd have them. Obviously there would be vet bills, overhead in caring for the animals, etc, but you were quite clear that those things aren't the issue for you as you work in a pet store, have plenty of time, blah blah blah.

My "point" was that if "more expensive balls" are your end goal and where your true passion lies (as was hinted by your own words), your money and time is best spent there. Let "the opportunity to learn first hand about snake ailments" present itself with animals that you are so truly passionate about that you don't have to ask for opinions on a message board as to whether or not you should get them … not with animals that you are only considering taking in because they might "add signifcant value to your ability to care for more expensive balls".

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Originally Posted by srozell

My intent is not to put anyone in their place, but in truth Adam, because of your reputation, many put you on a pedestal. With the recognition comes the responsibility to educate and encourage, and I look forward to learning much from you as I continue in this hobby.

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As for that statment, I have NO idea what you're talking about. I am just a guy with a nice collection of ball pythons that has taken me 10 years of hard work to put together ... my opinions are no more of less valid than anyone else’s. I like to think that I do a little bit to help out around here from time to time by using my experience to answer questions, but anyone that puts me on a "pedestal" is a donkey. I am no one special, and in any number of years, anyone on this message board could be right were I am.

And FWIW, I think I do a pretty darn tootin good job of educating and encouraging ... unfortunately, that education and encouragement doesn't always come out the way people "want" it to be … nothing I can do about that.

-adam

I apologize for getting oversensitive and misunderstanding your intentions.


Clearly I did miss your point.

And as far as being put on a pedestal goes, personally I believe your mug belongs on Mt. Rushmore, but baby steps first.. the last time I checked you hadn't posted your picture on these forums anywhere yet. :D

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Originally Posted by srozell

And as far as being put on a pedestal goes, personally I believe your mug belongs on Mt. Rushmore

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That ain't me at all ... I'm just a dork with a big mouth and a lot of opinions ... and EVERYONE knows what opinions are like ... mine stink just like everyone elses. :P

The real people that should be put up on the pedestal are the innovators like NERD, RDR, VPI, PKR, etc ... they are the pioneers that literally "created" this business from nothingness and wrote the play book for me to follow. ;)

-adam

spencer,

are these the snakes you were talking to me about today? wow, that's a whole lot of rescues and time and incredible effort not to mention $$ for vet bills.

i was looking for a thread of yours so i could pm you about the mice. it turns out i got 6 females in my order but they are all very young... too young to breed. a mouse needs to be closer to 6 weeks before being bred... and these ones all look to be about 3-4. so they won't really help you in your breeding process at this time anyway.

hopefully you'll get in some already pregnant ones in the next order and you can use those to feed your new snakes.

in light,
aleesha
ps now i'm going to read this whole thread... and see if these are the snakes you were talking to me about today.

spencer,

i really like what black zodiac had to say (page 3) - what are you going to do with all those snakes if you get ill or something comes up for you?

starting small... and getting your breeder/feeders going first would be the right way to do this. not getting the snakes and then trying to get feeders going to feed them all.

each individual snake equals one meal times total snakes per week! even at your discount volunteering at hidden reef, you'll be paying a LOT a week for pinkies - and have you figured out how many females you are going to need to birth enough mice for all those meals a week?

and once the snakes get larger and they begin eating a grown mouse... three weeks gestation and then 3 weeks of growing before they are ready to be eaten... equals 6 weeks. now remember you need bedding for the mice and food as well...

whew i'm getting tired just working this out in my head!

i'm concerned for you spencer... i don't want to see you get in over your head and i'm worried that you are.

can you at least start out with less and work your way up to more snakes?

hope you don't mind me sharing my thoughts,
aleesha

As far as it taking 6 weeks to raise up food sometimes, yes, but once that first 6 weeks has passed and you have enough food in all stages from 0-6 weeks then it just becomes turnaround time for your pregnant rodents as after weaning they continue to grow on their own as their restarts the reproduction cycle.

let's say you are feeding 10 snakes. and they are all eating pinkies.

so you need 10 pinkies a week. each mouse has 10-20 pinkies in a litter... and needs a few weeks off between pregnancies... so every 6 weeks she can have a litter (as with pinkies she isn't nursing them longer than a few days so she will recover faster)...

so, to cover 6 weeks worth of feeding... you need 6 mothers. (that way if you have more left over you can cover times when perhaps you don't have as successful litters as others)

once you get to full grown mice... the turnover is 8-10 weeks (so they each get a rest before another litter) and you need 8-10 female mice to create enough food for your snakes.

is this right or am i missing something cause it's late and i'm feeling stupid tonight LOL

so in other words... 6 female mice to feed 10 snakes... right?

This is the way Ive done the math.

100 females, 3 week gestation, 1 week off, means you can produce 100 * size of litter each month, as every mother can produce every month

thats if you want pinkies, lets say you want them to raise up to wean size and beyond

100 females, 3 week gestation, 4 week nursing, 1 week off, means you can produce 50 * size of litter each month. If you need 8 week olds, that just means that you need to get half your females pregnant 15 weeks ahead of time, and then from that point on you will be producing 8 week olds at 50*size of litter each month, or 12 * size of litter each week on avg.

wow that's a lot of mice :O