Feeding?

How much of a pain are BP's really to feed? I mean CBB, established 5-6 month old babies as well as hatchlings?

Do they accept readily F/T prey?
I've got a freezer full of frozen rats and mice of various sizes and ALL my boas even 15 day old neos 90% of the time will take F/T without hesitating.

Will I find myself looking for live mice/rats every weekend or trying to breed my own due to BP's not taking F/T all the time?

It's an individual thing - there's no way to forecast or tell what a particular BP will do. They are no more or less prone to take or refuse f/t than boas etc.

Thanks, but like I wrote before 90% of my boa neos accept F/T for their 1st meal and the other 10% accept it within their 2nd, 3rd or 4th meal.

I was also told a few years ago that JCP's are tough to convert to feeding rats and some only accept mice all their lives, but I had no problem at all with my trio or with a clutch I had last year.

I plan on getting 3-5 established female BP's soon and most are feeding on live mice or rat pups. Most of the breeders I've talk to have females at 200gm for $60-$70 or 300-350gm for $100, but all are feeding live, none are on F/T.

I'm just curious as to how big of a real problem is feeding BP's on a regular basis and/or F/T. It can't be as bad as most would assume because their wouldn't be this many owners/breeders.

From what I have found with bps is usually the younger the snake the easier it is to convert to F/T. With the amount of snakes you already own and the experience you have switching them over you should have no problems establishing a neonate to F/T. The longer the bp has been fed live the harder the switch will be. I bought a hatchling and a 250 gram female recently and had no problems switching both to F/T. :)

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Originally Posted by ssscales

I'm just curious as to how big of a real problem is feeding BP's on a regular basis and/or F/T. It can't be as bad as most would assume because their wouldn't be this many owners/breeders.

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I've never had much of a problem either feeding them on a regular basis OR getting them to accept f/t (BPs). Even a mite infested rescue (Sesha) pounded on f/t and she was already an adult with established live feeding habits. Again generalizations are only so useful as a means of forecasting. Given good husbandry it should not present you with much of a problem.

Thanks guys, I don't expect any problems. I plan on getting a few 200gm babies and converting them to P/K & shortly after to F/T after they take a few live meals in my home.

I've found over the years with ball pythons that four things are important when it comes to getting ball pythons to eat well ...

1. Have a consistent and regular feeding schedule and routine - If you feed on the same day each week, at about the same time .... follow the same routine each time you do ... make the same sounds ... expose the snakes to the same smells .... over time you will teach your snake what feeding day is all about ... once you do that, half of the battle is over ... once they are programmed as to what feeding day is all about and can recognize it before you even offer them food, it's easier to get them to accept a meal without a problem.

2. Feed small ... In my experience, ball pythons will "fill up" on food when it is plentiful and then fast to allow their bodies to catch up ... if you want to feed regularly, each and every week and be successful ... then smaller food items are better ... I have 4000 gram females that only eat 1 or maybe 2 40-50 gram rats per feeding ... but they eat every single week all year long.

3. Security, security, security .... keeping ball pythons in low traffic areas with small tight hides and disturbing them as little as possible makes them much better feeders than snakes that are handled and tossed around like show pets.

4. Heat, heat, heat .... Their metabolism is driven by how warm they are, so the warmer they are the hungrier they are ... balls seems to show very little or only luke warm interest in food if they are exposed to temps below 80, so keeping them warmer helps.

Doing all of those things do not make it a "sure thing" that your ball python will take F/T ... eating dead prey items isn't a natural behavior for them and it's something that you must train them to do ... but, doing the four things above in my opinion will greatly improve your chances of getting your ball python to eat anything you'd like it to very consistently.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

eating dead prey items isn't a natural behavior for them and it's something that you must train them to do

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I thought they are opportunistic in the wild and would eat something already dead. Is that true or is it bad information floating around?

Thanks Adam, as usual great post!

1) Sunday is feeding day here, there are no exceptions unless I have some babies feeding every 5 days, but usually it's every Sunday if I can help it.


2) I don't over feed or feed too large prey at any one time to any of my snakes. My adult female Boas can easily take rabbit sized meals, yet I keep them on one Jumbo rat per meal every two weeks. This of course is adjusted as needed after giving birth, but normally it's every two weeks.

My males can take large rats, yet I feed them medium rat every two weeks. I prefer healthy energetic snakes too fat sluggish unhealthy ones.

3) I have a separate reptile room for all my snakes, very low traffic, very quiet. All lights are on timers set to a 12/12 split accept during cycling periods. I plan on housing the BP's in sterilite tubs of appropriate sizes and they will be housed in their own rack.

4) I have all my cages heated with 12" Flexwatt and all my tubs heated by 3" flexwatt. All are connected to Helix DBS1000 controllers set at the desired temp. Usually 90F-92F for my boas with a cool side at 80F.

I just would really prefer to stay away from live feeders as much as I can most of year, if possible and not depend on them. I love the convenience of frozen feeders and would hate to constantly look for a live feeder source or have to breed my own.

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Originally Posted by iceman25

I thought they are opportunistic in the wild and would eat something already dead. Is that true or is it bad information floating around?

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I have never read anything that suggested that ball pythons will eat dead prey in the wild.

Their primary resource for hunting is heat and they seem to be tuned in to the heat signature given off by living creatures. Also, they are certainly ambush predators as opposed to hunters, so it's unlikely that they would ever go out in search of dead prey.

I think if the timing was right for a wild ball python and it was traveling, hungry, and came across a freshly dead animal that's heat signature was still similar enough to a living prey item that the snake found it interesting that it could certainly eat it, but that would really be the exception, not the rule in my opinion and in reality, the ball python still wouldn't really know it was eating dead prey.

-adam

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Originally Posted by ssscales

I just would really prefer to stay away from live feeders as much as I can most of year, if possible and not depend on them. I love the convenience of frozen feeders and would hate to constantly look for a live feeder source or have to breed my own.

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I hear ya ... I think it's EXTREMELY important for each owner to feed what is convenient for them ... it makes for overall better husbandry in the end.

Raising ball pythons and feeding only F/T can certainly be done and your ball pythons will certainly thrive ... I did it with a large collection for many years and had no problems.

Keep us posted! :D

-adam

What size prey should you offer a 275-300gm BP?



I'm assuming fuzzy rats would be more than fine, but I'm sure they could take a rat pup judging by their girth. Would it be best to keep them on the small size?

I would think rats pups would be fine. Depending on what you are judging as a rat pup. I just moved mine babies from fuzzies to pups, and they are ~250g. I go by themousefactory.com measurements. :D

The rat pups I have access too are 20-29gm.

I think for tomorrows feeding I'll offer them fuzzies at 15-19gm. If that goes down easy, I'll move them up to pups for the next feeding.

I got them in on Friday morning and they've been relaxing, mostly undisturbed in their 11qt tubs. I have the temps at 79-80F cool side/89-90F hot spot. I've checked a few of their body temps and they are at 82F. I'll leave them alone all day tomorrow and drop in the fuzzy rats around 8:00PM.

Hopefully they will take them without any trouble.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

... if you want to feed regularly, each and every week and be successful ... then smaller food items are better ... I have 4000 gram females that only eat 1 or maybe 2 40-50 gram rats per feeding ...
-adam

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Am I to understand that it is possible to feed to small rats at one time? How is this done? The second is offered immediately after the first tail dissapears?

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Originally Posted by srozell

The second is offered immediately after the first tail dissapears?

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Yup, somethin like that. I usually wait for the yawn that comes after it too. As soon as they start roaming around again, I drop the second (third) in. Be sure to make sure the first one is gone, and they're not in the process of still eating the first one. BP's, and all snakes, are most vulnerable during feeding.

If needed, I offer a 2nd item only after the snake has swallowed the 1st and moved on. If it is still hungry it will take the 2nd item, if not it may ignore it. Most snakes are opportunistic feeders and will rarely refuse a meal. I prefer to feed one appropriate sized meal per feeding. If I feel for whatever reason it may require a 2nd meal, I may shorten the feeding schedule from 7 days to 5 rather than feed 2 meals in one sitting.

Just my $0.02.

I plan on feeding my BP's every 7 days one good meal.

I'm not sure if I may have been feeding my BP wrong - she always has been given 2 rodents - the same size as or slightly smaller than the widest part of her - we dangle the first one in front of her so she takes it and then put the second on on top of her hide for her to find later. Only once has she refused this second one. She is fed every Saturday evening. We were advised this by 2 separate reptile people who weighed her and said that 2 should be fine.

Please advise - I don't want to kill her by over-feeding - I think I read in a post yesterday somewhere that power-feeding can seriously shorten a BP's life - but I understood powerfeeding to be when you literally force the next rodent down their throat.

Sue
*worried*

Sue, there are TONS of different opinions and methods for feedings snakes in general, and bp's in particular. If the snake consistently and readily takes the second rodent, I'm sure you're doing just fine. It'd be easy to second-guess yourself into a frenzy by reading all the various posts about how everyone else does it.

I'm not sure about power feeding BP's.

What I consider power feeding, is literally shoving a 2nd and 3rd food item back to back following the 1st forcing the snake to eat more than it needs or wants. With power feeding you run the risk of regurge and shortening their lives in the long run.


If they usually feed or can take a medium rat and all you have is 2 small rats, than that's ok. But, if it's correct feeder is a medium rat and you offer it 2 medium rats to push growth...that's pushing it.

With BP's I'm not sure if feeding 2 items is due to the expecting fasting months, maybe some of the more experience BP owners can respond. I will stick to one food item every 7 days, if needed every 5 days.

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Originally Posted by Razaiel

I think I read in a post yesterday somewhere that power-feeding can seriously shorten a BP's life

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That's garbage. There is no scientific data to support that statement. Don't listen to that junk.

Ball pythons do a very good job of regulating themselves when it comes to food. They know when they have "filled up" and will shut down once they do. That's one of the many reasons why that have such a reputation for fasting ... because most people over feed their ball pythons and they fast to "catch up" with all of the food.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

That's garbage. There is no scientific data to support that statement. Don't listen to that junk.

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And if you need any of your own data to back up what you're feeding... just do what I do. Weigh them the day before feeding, and two days after.

I put three mice into one of my pastel girls this week, avg 27 grams a piece. She was 368g on Wednesday, ate on Thursday (like a champ as always) and last night, she was a little over 390g. She gained all of 22 grams out of 81g of food. Not a bad metabolism. :)

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Originally Posted by JLC

Sue, there are TONS of different opinions and methods for feedings snakes in general, and bp's in particular. If the snake consistently and readily takes the second rodent, I'm sure you're doing just fine. It'd be easy to second-guess yourself into a frenzy by reading all the various posts about how everyone else does it.

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Yeah, ain't this the truth. I think I should stop reading and worrying and just pet my kitties...

/anxious snake mom mode ON ;)

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Ball pythons do a very good job of regulating themselves when it comes to food. They know when they have "filled up" and will shut down once they do. That's one of the many reasons why that have such a reputation for fasting ... because most people over feed their ball pythons and they fast to "catch up" with all of the food.

-adam

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I guess Pythons have a faster metabolism than boas. With boas you can tell which have been power fed to the extreme by their unusually small heads to body proportions. Boas won't regulate themselves and will have negative effects on them in the long run.

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Originally Posted by ssscales

I guess Pythons have a faster metabolism than boas. With boas you can tell which have been power fed to the extreme by their unusually small heads to body proportions. Boas won't regulate themselves and will have negative effects on them in the long run.

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You know - I may well have read that on a Boa forum - I'm currently researching into them as I want to get a redtail - if I remember the more or less exact words were from a breeder (not Adam of course) who said at one time he consistently power-fed fed his snakes and none of them lived beyond 5 years of age ... and he did mean power-feeding as opposed to just popping a second mouse in to be ate or not.

Thank you very much for your replies, everyone, I am much relieved that I'm not doing anything detrimental to Emily's health.

With Boas, there are a number of breeders that have made the statements about power feeding there early breeding stock and running into problems. Whether those problems were from power feeding or early breeding, who knows...

Read any care sheet on boas and all will advise you not to power feed or over feed.

I feed my boas one appropriate size meal every five days from their 1st shed up to 3-4mo. After that it's one item every 7-10 females and every 15 days for males up until 3yrs. After that they are both fed every 15 days, males are kept at medium rats while females move up to Jumbo rats.

My Jungle Carpet Pythons were also raised and fed in the same way. If I feel they need two items, I simply increase the size of prey rather than feed two small ones.

Just my $0.02.

I plan on raising my BP's the same way unless I learn otherwise, it seems based on reading BP's handle two smaller meals better than one larger meal (2 small rats, rather than 1 medium rat). I'm new to BP's and their habbits and learning as I go.