75 deg. good for a cool spot??

I was just reading up on a few random caresheets and two of which i read stated 75 is fine for the cool side.. and the other said that 75 is good of night time drop, but like adam said and most of you concur its better to have constant temps and not have them drop. Here is the link to a couple of the caresheets... (this one states its ok for 70-80 range for night time) http://coloherp.org/careshts/snakes/ballpyth.php
http://www.kingsnake.com/ballpythonguide/

i actually questioned this last week. i also see many caresheets that say 75 is ok for cool spot and that night time drop is ok. however the experts on this site and in general will tell u to keep the cool side over 80 at all times.

Definitely keep temps over 80 degrees!! That is based on old information.

Many care sheets on the internet are based on old/outdated information or are actually copy and paste jobs from other species of snakes. Every day we learn more and more about the best way to care for ball pythons and the current techniques used by professional breeders include one side of the cage at 82-84 and the other at 92-94 with no night time drop under normal circumstances.

I'm pretty sure that the guy that wrote the ball python guide on kingsnake.com doesn't even keep ball pythons anymore?

For the best and most current information, make sure your source is up to date ... many care sheets floating around on the internet are not!

-adam

alright guys thanks a lot

I am curious as to what the temperature range is on average throughout the ball python's natural habitat. It can't possibly be 82 - 94 degrees 365. (366 on leap year.) Does anyone have this information? And if the temperature range does fluctuate outside of these norms, then why is it so imperative to keep them in this temperature range? Are these maybe the temps that breeders find to be most efficient when encouraging breeding? Are they healthy temps regardless of whether you breed?

I ask this because while most of Shahrazad's cage is within Adam's suggested temps, there is one part of the cage that routinely dips below 80 and I often see Sharazad sleeping there, especially now that it is winter time. And when I take him out and increase his body temperature in accordance with mine, he will immediately head back to that sub 80 spot. And he is as healthy as a snake can be from all that I have observed.

This leads me to believe that different ball pythons have different preferences for temperatures depending on factors such as weather, time of year and whether they have eaten recently.

Rachel

Ball pythons live on the equator, the ambient are temperatures don't fluctuate throughout the year like most people are used to. But even so, in their natural environments, ball pythons have the ability to roam and seek out optimal temps in either the low 80's or low 90's depending on their needs ... a warm humid subterranean burrow or a basking rock that has been heated in the sun.

In captivity, we can not provide the natural range that they are used to, so instead we keep their cages at a constant temp that allows them to thrive.

As far as your ball python seeking out the coolest part of the cage, frequently, as males and females sexually mature, they will seek out cooler temperatures as they would in the wild during their breeding season. These cooler temps slow down their metabolism and increases their hormone levels and sometimes trigger fasting ... some ball pythons that aren't in peak physical condition or that spend too much time in these cooler conditions may develop respiratory infections because not having the ability to expose themselves to such conditions in the wild, they don’t have an immune system capable of dealing with the effects the cooler temperatures on have their bodies.

If you were to instead always provide temps that are 82-84 on one side and 92-94 on the other, your ball python won't be distracted by it's natural breeding instinct, keep it's metabolism at it's optimal levels, and be a strong reliable, consistent feeder.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

If you were to instead always provide temps that are 82-84 on one side and 92-94 on the other, your ball python won't be distracted by it's natural breeding instinct, keep it's metabolism at it's optimal levels, and be a strong reliable, consistent feeder.

-adam

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But wouldn't distracting a being from its normal breeding instincts lead to, for lack of a better phrase, psychological trauma? We know for instance that in humans, denying the sexual self healthy outlets leads to a whole host of troubles. Can this line of thinking be related to snakes, since both of our sexual desires originate in what we call the hypothalomus of the brain, but is in fact the only brain that snakes possess?

Rachel

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Originally Posted by RWillinnable

But wouldn't distracting a being from its normal breeding instincts lead to, for lack of a better phrase, psychological trauma? We know for instance that in humans, denying the sexual self healthy outlets leads to a whole host of troubles. Can this line of thinking be related to snakes, since both of our sexual desires originate in what we call the hypothalomus of the brain, but is in fact the only brain that snakes possess?

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But the snake is only responding to an external stimulus. Without the stimulus the snake thrives just the same.

I don't think comparing a human brain or psyche to a snakes is even remotely ... not sure how to say this in a "PC" way .... logical? Snakes are simple organisms driven my instinct and external stimuli and humans as we know are complex.

Animals kept as pets are distracted from their natural breeding instincts and even all natural instincts all the time. Beta fish are kept isolated ... dogs and cats are not allowed to hunt ... birds are kept in cages without the ability to fly ... if you'd like to go down this road, then maybe keeping pets isn't the best thing for you?

Look at it this way ... dogs are designed to hunt and roam in packs ... we don't allow our dogs to do that because they can get lost or even injured running the streets wildly with other dogs .. so for their own well being, we keep them inside, or in a yard, or on a leash ... same thing with snakes ... unless you're going to engage the snake in a breeding program for the purpose of making more snakes, then keeping them at temperatures that do not induce breeding behavior is best for their own well being given that the possible side effects of that induced behavior could lead to their illness or death.

-adam

A snake can't guarantee that it's going to even find another snake to shag during "breeding time" in the wild, so it only makes sense that they're fine either way in captivity. There's a number of animals that are like that, particularly solitary coldblooded animals, like Adam said it's all about external stimulus. It's also more of an opportunist situation than it is with more social creatures, like my rabbits who go at it even though they're both fixed :P

Don't think that I don't want my animals to be healthy and am not willing to do what it takes to keep them healthy. I merely am questioning whether it is advisable to treat every BP as though it were on an assembly line. Heck, even NERD's care sheet says it is ok to go down to 78 and they are one of the top breeders in the world. I am merely questioning the BP.net mantra of 82-84 and 92-94.

Also, if you think that human sexuality, or any other species' sexuality is not instinctual, does not spring from external stimuli and does not first arise in the hypothalomus, then you need to do some research on neurology. The same basic neurological design that snakes have, we have as well because we both originate from a common ancestor some 250 million years ago. We just have a whole host of other neurological cells floating around up there. But the same basic design exists.

As for feeding reponses, you may have something there. I have noticed that the more time he spends in the sub 80 spot, he does tend to eat less. Like he did not eat for me last time.

Adam, I know that you have had great success with your snakes and breeding, but I wonder if you and some of the others here have different goals in keeping snakes than I do. I want to have a pet that will live for several decades with whom I can share my life. You seem to want to merely breed these animals. I don't believe I have ever heard you say anything about how much you enjoy interacting with your snakes or any funny stories about what they do. I know that this is probably because you have so many, but that is precisely why I think you and the other breeders have different goals in mind from those of us who view our snakes as members of our families, as so many of us view our dogs and cats.

I merely want to have a healthy snake, both physically and psychologically. I want to explore every ounce of his being and I want him to do the same with me. A breeder seems to want the most robust snake for breeding. I wonder if these different goals leads to different experiences and desires in both the snakes and owners and as a result of these differing goals, whether different methods are desirable?

Rachel

as far as the 75 deg. cool spot, here's my view, last year my room went down into 70's and one of my snakes got RI. this was not a good thing, it was stressful for me and the snake, you could easily buy a nice helix for the cost of treatment. the stress is not fun, giving shots,quarantine, follow up visits, not fun! after going through that i don't see any reason to risk getting it. 80 deg and up is a good base temp to keep. one thing to keep in mind is that most of the thermometers we use have an accuracy of 2-3 deg. +/-!
your thermometer could read 75 and it really be 72 deg. my main point is, i don't see a good reason to risk it!


vaughn

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Originally Posted by RWillinnable

Adam, I know that you have had great success with your snakes and breeding, but I wonder if you and some of the others here have different goals in keeping snakes than I do. I want to have a pet that will live for several decades with whom I can share my life. You seem to want to merely breed these animals. I don't believe I have ever heard you say anything about how much you enjoy interacting with your snakes or any funny stories about what they do. I know that this is probably because you have so many, but that is precisely why I think you and the other breeders have different goals in mind from those of us who view our snakes as members of our families, as so many of us view our dogs and cats.

I merely want to have a healthy snake, both physically and psychologically. I want to explore every ounce of his being and I want him to do the same with me. A breeder seems to want the most robust snake for breeding. I wonder if these different goals leads to different experiences and desires in both the snakes and owners and as a result of these differing goals, whether different methods are desirable?

Rachel

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I've been to Adam's shop. I can't even begin to describe the passion that man has for his snakes. It is NOT a job for him. Every animal is important, no matter it's breeding importance. He is fanatical about these snakes, and goes WAY above and beyond to help out newbies to provide the best possible situation for everyone.

Anyway, there's my thoughts. :D

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Originally Posted by RWillinnable

I am merely questioning the BP.net mantra of 82-84 and 92-94.

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No one is putting a gun to your head. Keep your ball pythons at whatever temperatures you want ... in the end, they are your ball pythons ... I'm just sharing what works for me. If you don't agree, or don't like it ... ignore it.

And if you'd like to check out NERDs owner Kevin McCurleys book "The Complete Ball Python" … nothing he says contradicts the 82-84, 92-94 "mantra". The thing you have to realize is that there is a difference between an acceptable temperature range for people that can't do any better and providing temps that will allow your ball python to thrive.

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Originally Posted by RWillinnable

Also, if you think that human sexuality, or any other species' sexuality is not instinctual, does not spring from external stimuli and does not first arise in the hypothalomus, then you need to do some research on neurology. The same basic neurological design that snakes have, we have as well because we both originate from a common ancestor some 250 million years ago. We just have a whole host of other neurological cells floating around up there. But the same basic design exists.

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Again, I have no idea how you can compare the brain function and instinct of a human to a ball python. We may have started out with the same basic design, but evolution has made us VERY different organisms. This comparison is just not good science in any way.

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Originally Posted by RWillinnable

As for feeding reponses, you may have something there. I have noticed that the more time he spends in the sub 80 spot, he does tend to eat less. Like he did not eat for me last time.

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I may huh? Imagine that.

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Originally Posted by RWillinnable

Adam, I know that you have had great success with your snakes and breeding, but I wonder if you and some of the others here have different goals in keeping snakes than I do. I want to have a pet that will live for several decades with whom I can share my life. You seem to want to merely breed these animals. I don't believe I have ever heard you say anything about how much you enjoy interacting with your snakes or any funny stories about what they do. I know that this is probably because you have so many, but that is precisely why I think you and the other breeders have different goals in mind from those of us who view our snakes as members of our families, as so many of us view our dogs and cats.

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You have NO IDEA what you are talking about. Ball pythons are my life, they consume every aspect of what I do. I wake up thinking about ball pythons, I think about ball pythons while I grocery shop, I think about ball pythons when I’m on the can, and I go to bed thinking about ball pythons. Just because I'm not all touchy feely foo foo on the message boards doesn't mean that I don't bleed passion for these animals ... I come here to share my knowledge and give back to a community that has given me sooo much ... I own two very successful business and work about 120 hours a week plus I'm a single parent raising a 4 year old ... The time I have to spend here just answering questions is very valuable to me and I do all that I can just to help ... I don't have the time or the desire to share "funny stories" about my snakes ... If you take note, for the most part I don't participate in happy birthday threads, here's what I look like threads, or what's your favorite cupcake threads, not because I don't want to, but because I really don't have the time .... If it makes you feel better, in addition to the 250+ snakes that I have at my breeding facility in Freedom Breeder racks, here at home, my son has 8 ball pythons in his room in 20 gallon tanks, we also have hermit crabs, fish, and geckos ... they all have names and I have tons of "funny stories" that I could share if only I had the time. If you can't tell, I'm just a little insulted by your insinuation ... I'm doing all I can here to help people to the best of my ability and I get called out for not sharing "funny stories" ... give me a break.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RWillinnable

I merely want to have a healthy snake, both physically and psychologically. I want to explore every ounce of his being and I want him to do the same with me. A breeder seems to want the most robust snake for breeding. I wonder if these different goals leads to different experiences and desires in both the snakes and owners and as a result of these differing goals, whether different methods are desirable?

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A snake will not breed if it's not healthy, both physically AND psychologically ... you can't force them to lock up ... you induce breeding by providing them with the BEST possible environment ... breeding or not, our goals are the same ... It saddens me that you would think otherwise.

If you think that I don’t know what I’m talking about, that’s fine … I’m not asking you to drink the magic punch, I’m not asking you for anything … I’m just trying to help people the way that so many breeders and experts in the field of herpetology helped me over the last 25 years.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

and work about 120 hours a week
-adam

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Geez, is THAT all? :rolleyes:

Quit 'yer whining! LOL

Seriously though, how DO you find time to come here and answer questions, talk on the phone answering even more questions, and find time to send pictures to people who bug you to death wanting to know when they're going to get them? (I resemble that last one! LOL).

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Seriously though, how DO you find time to come here and answer questions, talk on the phone answering even more questions

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I multi-task very well ... but don't worry, I usually remember to wait and flush after I hang up the phone. ;)

( had to be done, had to :P )

-adam

BTW - Pictures tonight! ... Late!

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I multi-task very well ... but don't worry, I usually remember to wait and flush after I hang up the phone. ;)

( had to be done, had to :P )

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OK, TMI, but I BELIEVE that I've actually done that to you! LOL

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

BTW - Pictures tonight! ... Late!

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Oh Karl will be so relieved! I won't have to check my e-mail every five minutes! LOL

I am sorry Adam. I appreciate your guidance. I was trying to create dialogue, but the post came off sounding way too harsh and I am sorry for that. Thanks for all the great advise that you give and truth is that I will be buying a black light with greater voltage so that I can raise Shahrazad's temps to 82 degrees.

You and I may have different motives in keeping our snakes and we may never completely understand the other's, as I am sure that the original Adam did not understand Eve's attraction to her first snake experience, I don't think that I can explain mine. But I will do what I can to make sure he is healthy and if that means raising his temps, then I will do it.

Thanks for all your help. :)

Rachel

sorry i must... but u mentioned the whole evolution thing earlier and now ur talking about adam and eve...

If she's bringing up adam and eve, chances are that she has NO IDEA what adam w. was talking about when it comes to the evolution issue between humans and ball pythons, and further explains the reason for the ignorant comparison between the two species.

Sorry, I just had to jump in here, and say how out of line it is to question the motives of somewho who is outwardly so passionate about the species. Maybe the reason why he doesn't have so many "funny stories" is because he completely understands the behavior of these animals as a result of experience. Example: "oh, this one time my snake was in his waterbowl for 3 days with just his nose popping out, it was so cute!" the person who says that has no clue that this behavior exhibits some type of issue that is going on with the snake.

I'm kind of offended for you, Adam, and I give you props for taking that so well. I may not have been as civil.....

Brad
Member #1435 of the BP.net Adam Defender Club

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

I'm kind of offended for you, Adam, and I give you props for taking that so well.

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Thanks Brad! ... But it's all good ... I'm extremely proud of the passion I have for and care I give to each and every one of the animals that I am lucky enough to work with. Even though I was tweaked over the post for half a second, I know that nothing can take away from what I know to be true.

But it's all water under the bridge ... I don't get twisted up for very long, and I know that I'm also guilty at times of stirring the pot, so it's really no big deal and completely quashed as far as I'm concerned. ;)

-adam