Super Spider and other stuff....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandyRemington

Actually heterozygous is the right word for a pastel and for a spider. Remembering that both have unmatched pairs of genes for their respective mutations (the definition of het) would help you to remember that spider X spider has a chance of producing normals too.

---

Ok, I just did a quick punnent square, a spider x spider cross would make 75% spiders and 25% normals?

S n
S SS Sn
n Sn nn

Given that, even though there is no "super" manifestation of the spider gene, if you were to somehow figure out which individuals ended up as "SS"(which would be a homozygous spider, right?) as opposed to just "Sn"(a heterozygous spider?), could you breed that individual to a normal and get all heterozygous spiders?

Well, if someone were to find the homozygous spider, then yes, homozygous spider to normal would yield 100% spiders.

I wonder at what point it would be concluded that particular spider was in fact a homozygous spider. Maybe after breeding with many normal females (assuming we had a male of course) and getting nothing but spiders clutch after clutch.

ps. this thread is so hijacked....

I understand the dom and co-dom genitcs =) But thanks though. Sometimes a see some pics of young pastels with a lot of bright orange on their sides but I never see an adult with this bright orange. There are just sooo many people offering pastels that its neigh impossible to figure out what one i want. Maybe I'll just stick with my albino plan for now. I just dont know.... tooo many choices!!

JT

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by elevatethis

I wonder at what point it would be concluded that particular spider was in fact a homozygous spider. Maybe after breeding with many normal females (assuming we had a male of course) and getting nothing but spiders clutch after clutch.

---

With something as important as claiming that you actually have a super spider, I would think that a breeder would want at least a couple of seasons of multiple all spider clutches. Making the claim prematurely and then popping out a normal in future breedings would be an embarrassment that would be hard to recover from. ;)

-adam

We could tie Pastel back in and say that to test if you have a homozygous (super) pastel OR a homozygous spider you could breed it to normals and see if you produce all morph (either pastel or spider) babies. Technically you could never be absolutely sure you weren’t just very lucky and produced all morphs with a het but the odds against that get longer and longer the more babies you produce. For example, the odds of going 6 for 6 on baby pastels or spiders with a het X normal breeding is only about 1.6% (1:64). The odds of going 10 for 10 is about 0.01% (1:1,024). The odds of 20 in a row is 0.0001% (1:1,048,576). So, if your spider produces 20 spiders and no normals in it's first 20 eggs bred to normals is it "proven" homozygous spider or where you just 1 in 1 million lucky?

I guess the point Adam is making is that, would you be willing to risk you reputation on anything less than 100% certainty?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by elevatethis

I guess the point Adam is making is that, would you be willing to risk you reputation on anything less than 100% certainty?

---

Exactly. Especially with all of the conspiracy theory nuts out there and the wackos that will do and say anything to try and discredit the ball python market because of their jealousy.

I would think that walking that extra mile just to be 100% certain is almost a requirement at this point.

-adam

My point is that you can never be 100% certain you have a homozygous spider. Even if one where to produce 30 spiders and no normals bred to normals there would still be a 1 in a billion (actually 1,073,741,824) that it was just good luck. Just like you can never prove 100% that a homozygous spider isn't possible. Even if the first 30 potential homozygous spiders all failed to prove there would still be an about 1 in 191,751 chance that it was just bad luck that all those 33% chance homozygous spiders turned out to just be hets. Of course there would also be the chance that the selection of possible homozygous wasn't random (maybe homozygous ones look or act a little different or for some reason weren’t as likely to be the first ones bred by the public).

So, if you can't be 100% certain, when do you decide enough is enough? I think if there was only a 1 in 1 billion chance of being wrong most of us would consider it proven. Would anyone really feel they need better odds than that JUST to be sure?

Hehe, Murphy's Law says YES...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandyRemington

Would anyone really feel they need better odds than that JUST to be sure?

---

When you're potentially talking about a breeder that has spent years building their passion into a profitable livelihood in a business where reputation is EVERYTHING, I would think so.

This is just a hobby for me, and I know I certainly would. I couldn't imagine how "sure" I'd want to be if presenting a flawed conclusion would potentially mean finding another way to feed my family. Talk about a gut check!

I've seen how odds can swing wildly in a single season and I know that I certainly wouldn't jump for joy after one seasons breedings no matter how many actual all spider clutches I produced. I might let a certain close circle of friends know about my success, but astronomical odds or not, I certainly would need another breeding season JUST to be sure.

-adam

But mathematically they can NEVER be 100% sure. So if professional breeders depend on being absolutely sure then they will never be able to tell us. I guess we'll just have to wait until the small breeders have the public domain data to decide for ourselves.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandyRemington

But mathematically they can NEVER be 100% sure. So if professional breeders depend on being absolutely sure then they will never be able to tell us. I guess we'll just have to wait until the small breeders have the public domain data to decide for ourselves.

---

So I guess you never just go with your gut?

For me, there's a HUGE difference between mathematical probability and just "knowing" in your gut. It might not be the most logical thing in the world, but sometimes, instinct just “feels better” … when you know you know.

Can't wait for your super spider project results Randy! They should be quite compelling! :P

-adam

Like someone would sell a 3-5 yr old spider that produces only spiders....and it is not like they would look different than regulars at hatching.....so basically it would be luck of the draw right?

Unless a pair of homozygous spiders were proven and only produced homozygous spiders in breeding....I guess that I really don't see what the fuss is all about.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by daniel1983

Like someone would sell a 3-5 yr old spider that produces only spiders....and it is not like they would look different than regulars at hatching.....so basically it would be luck of the draw right?

---

Not really .... you could systematically work to determine whether or not you have a super spider. I would think that the easiest way would be to raise up a group of males from one or more spider x spider breedings ... then breed each to a normal female or two (you wouldn't want to waste a whole lot of normal girls because odds are that most of the male spiders will just be normal spiders) ... then, if any of the males sired all spider clutches, breed those males again in the following year(s) to larger groups of normal females until there is enough conclusive evidence that you in fact have a super spider.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by daniel1983

Unless a pair of homozygous spiders were proven and only produced homozygous spiders in breeding....I guess that I really don't see what the fuss is all about.

---

I think the fuss is about the value that a super spider brings to a professional breeders collection. Producing normals STINKS if you are breeding for profit. The ability to upgrade your breeder spider males to super spiders has a huge impact on your profit margins!

-adam

I guess having one of those as a breeder would kick it....

Imagine Super Spider x Super Pastel.......only Bumblebees ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by daniel1983

I guess having one of those as a breeder would kick it....

Imagine Super Spider x Super Pastel.......only Bumblebees ;)

---

BEL x super spider = heaven!

-adam

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

BEL x super spider = heaven!

---

I think that I understand the fuss now ;)


How come I never hear any talk of possible Super Pins? ....I guess Randy has just been busy :D j/k

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

BEL x super spider = heaven!

-adam

---

I think it's too early in the morning and I haven't had enough coffee yet. Racking my brain here, but coming up blank - BEL? Can a girl get a little help? :weirdface

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by daniel1983

How come I never hear any talk of possible Super Pins? ....I guess Randy has just been busy :D j/k

---

Not enough pin x pin breedings yet. ;)

I'm sure Randy has a spread sheet started. :P

-adam

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rabernet

I think it's too early in the morning and I haven't had enough coffee yet. Racking my brain here, but coming up blank - BEL? Can a girl get a little help? :weirdface

---

BEL = blue eyed lucy.

-adam

With pinstripes there is a public story as to how many pin X pin breedings have been done - one. So we know it's too early for a proven homozygous pin to be conspicuous by its absence or to suspect that there is a breeder who has withheld a near proven gut feeling as to the nature of the morph for years and years and years.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandyRemington

With pinstripes there is a public story as to how many pin X pin breedings have been done - one. So we know it's too early for a proven homozygous pin to be conspicuous by its absence or to suspect that there is a breeder who has withheld a near proven gut feeling as to the nature of the morph for years and years and years.

---

Years and years and years?

Well, the first CB female spiders hatched in 1999 ... being a new unproven morph, it's not likely that Kevin went "ALL OUT" and put the original spider with a ton of females, so the number of CB spider females was probably very limited ... Being hatching in 1999 would make them breedable for the first spider x spider breedings in 2001 maybe (but that's not a given, could have been 2002 if Kevin was being super conservative) ... then, with no visible super ... all of the males would need to be held back to breed in 2003 producing the first potential all spider clutches in 2004 (but that is assuming that Kevin kept all of the males and didn't sell any thinking that he just missed on the super) ... wow, was 2004 just the season before last ... amazing!

All that is assuming that every single one grew like they so called "should" ... everyone bred like they "should" ... all of the eggs were fertile like they "should be" ... and none of those fertile eggs went bad during incubation because that never happens right? ... Give me a break Randy ... years and years and years? ... LOL, sure .... Dude, you really need to relax a little bit! :P

-adam

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

All that is assuming that every single one grew like they so called "should" ... everyone bred like they "should" ... all of the eggs were fertile like they "should be" ... and none of those fertile eggs went bad during incubation because that never happens right? ...:P

-adam

---

Adam - you forgot one - MOVING!!!!!

What does this remind me of? "Of course, we don't live anywhere near Perfect...so we have Walgreens." ;)

K~

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KLG

Adam - you forgot one - MOVING!!!!!

---

Absolutely! ... I intentionally left that one out because most boners won't understand what's involved in moving tens of thousands of animals and say "what does that have to do with anything" ... LOL ... With the stress of financing, designing, and building a multi million dollar breeding facility ... starting an entirely new business venture (Zoo Creatures) ... and writing a book, you would think all that would be enough for people to cut you guys some slack.

Keep on rockin on K! and tell the mad scientist that if he wants me to pick up on the first call next time, don't block the number! :P

-adam

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Keep on rockin on K! and tell the mad scientist that if he wants me to pick up on the first call next time, don't block the number! :P

-adam

---

LOL...he was calling you from the house, so that # is always blocked by default. We'll *82 you next time, though. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KLG

LOL...he was calling you from the house, so that # is always blocked by default. We'll *82 you next time, though. ;)

---

LOL ... I was just bustin chops :P ... How's he gonna prank call me if you *82? :P

-adam

Sorry, so maybe just 2 years. That's if there wasn't anything in the spider X spider breedings of 2001 or 2002 that gave the gut feeling of a homozygous spider. When we all eventually know the nature of the homozygous spider we'll see if reputations are more at risk from delaying or from premature sharing of gut feelings.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandyRemington

Sorry, so maybe just 2 years.

---

If everything went perfectly, 2 years. Unfortunately, working with animals always has unpredictable twists and turns and as Kara pointed out, there was a massive move to a new facility right in the middle on the timeline. Seems to me the project is right where it should be.

Randy, you may think yourself to be absolutely perfect, but it's an unrealistic standard to hold other people to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandyRemington

That's if there wasn't anything in the spider X spider breedings of 2001 or 2002 that gave the gut feeling of a homozygous spider.

---

Yeah, there were big yellow post it notes inside the eggs that said "this ones the super spider" as well as "there was a second gunman on the grassy knoll" ... LMFAO!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandyRemington

When we all eventually know the nature of the homozygous spider we'll see if reputations are more at risk from delaying or from premature sharing of gut feelings.

---

We sure will. It will be nice to see hard working breeders out there that take their time and are absolutely certain about the results of a breeding project before they open thier mouths instead of lonely old boners rushing to the forums with wild and unfounded speculation in order to get attention, make themselves feel important, and impress the posers.

ROCK ON!

-adam

Boners? Posers?? ROCK ON??? You'd better get to your doctor fast, Adam... It sounds like you may have a serious case of RDS. It may be untreatable, but at least you could get it looked at man!

...(RDS = Ralph Davis Syndrome)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ddbjdealer

Boners? Posers?? ROCK ON??? You'd better get to your doctor fast, Adam... It sounds like you may have a serious case of RDS. It may be untreatable, but at least you could get it looked at man!

...(RDS = Ralph Davis Syndrome)

---

FOFLMAO.....thats a good one :D

Wasn't this thread about pastels????.....ha

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ddbjdealer

Boners? Posers?? ROCK ON??? You'd better get to your doctor fast, Adam... It sounds like you may have a serious case of RDS. It may be untreatable, but at least you could get it looked at man!

...(RDS = Ralph Davis Syndrome)

---

Guess my heads still spinning from the New Years eve party! :P ... It was a heck of a good time. ;) :twisted:

-adam

Quote:

---

Randy, you may think yourself to be absolutely perfect, but it's an unrealistic standard to hold other people to.

---

I'm far from perfect. If it where me it would take a lot longer than the "super conservative" three years to get babies out of the first females. I've yet to do it in 2 much less make a standard of it.

Of course the big question is why do we even have to guess when the first potential homozygous spiders where bred. I remember seeing the posts in 2004 by a couple smaller breeders who bought potential homozygous spiders that ended up being disproved by the end of the 2004 season. Apparently someone did sell some potential homozygous spiders without taking their time to be absolutely certain they were possible.

That leaves only the question as to if at least one potential homozygous spider has now produced enough only spiders to justify a gut feeling that it is indeed a homozygous spider. Was the report going around that someone actually proved (within 1 in a billion) a homozygous spider 2 hatching seasons ago started by one of those "certain close circle of friends" in the know? No names where mentioned but I trust my source. So of course I'm wondering why, if such a rumor is true, the homozygous spider isn't being claimed. One possible explanation could be that the homozygous spiders are different in some bad way. Maybe they are upside down much more than a regular spider. Maybe the problem even showed up in the first spider X spider breedings as a post it note back in 01 or 02. But if there where some freaks pulled out and hid away in those clutches due to some gut feeling before the remainder was sold as potential homozygous spiders then that is just one more place the customers suffered due to a lack of information.

I don't expect perfection, but even a little disclosure would go a long way toward trust that most mistakes are honest.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandyRemington

Of course the big question is why do we even have to guess when the first potential homozygous spiders where bred.

---

We don't have to guess. Those of us with telephones know. If you want to know, why don't you call Kevin and ask him? Or go over to Kevins forum and post the question? I really don't understand what you're afraid of? You go on and on crying about the lack of information on the spider project, but the resources to get that information are plentiful. Just because the information isn't distributed in a manner that you feel is acceptable doesn't mean it's not available. Why is it that people that don't do things "your way" should be held under scrutiny? What makes "your way" the way that things "should be" done?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandyRemington

Apparently someone did sell some potential homozygous spiders without taking their time to be absolutely certain they were possible.

---

Yes, spiders from spider x spider breedings have been sold. Just like animals from het x normal breeding are sold as "possible" hets. Some of them prove out, some of them don't. The buyers of those possible super spiders knew the deal when they plunked down the cash. Have you actually spoken with anyone that purchased a possible super spider that did not prove? If you did, you would certainly know that they were never promised anything beyond the fact that their animal was produced from a spider x spider breeding. Kevin has always been honest and upfront about the possibility of a super spider being produced. As a matter of fact, I'm willing to bet that you probably have a copy of his post from kingsnake on the topic stored in a spread sheet somewhere.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandyRemington

So of course I'm wondering why, if such a rumor is true, the homozygous spider isn't being claimed. One possible explanation could be that the homozygous spiders are different in some bad way. Maybe they are upside down much more than a regular spider. Maybe the problem even showed up in the first spider X spider breedings as a post it note back in 01 or 02. But if there where some freaks pulled out and hid away in those clutches due to some gut feeling before the remainder was sold as potential homozygous spiders then that is just one more place the customers suffered due to a lack of information.

---

Why must you be so negative? Why must you start baseless rumors when you don't get your way like a whining little child? Just because you aren't getting the information as quickly as you like? Maybe you're jealous because you're not "in the know"? Kevin McCurley is a good person with an excellent reputation in the business. He has done more for ball pythons than any 100 of the fly by night basement breeders ever will. Why do you think that he would be so dishonest? Why do you think he would do anything to hurt himself or the industry? Do you have some kind of personal vendetta?

Maybe Randy, just maybe there are no conspiracies and no hidden agendas and the truth is that it's just taking a little longer than you would like. Why isn't that good enough for you? Who are you to make claims about what is and isn't not acceptable as far as disclosure of information or the time it takes to prove super spiders on way or the other? It's people like you out there starting rumors and spreading lies about the spider project that are making the people working on super spider be extra cautious about releasing information. You are ruining it for everyone!

Bottom line, if you don't like spiders or you don't like the fact that we have no information about the super spider project DON'T BUY ONE! .... Ball pythons are big business not academia. Breeding projects are done to produce snakes to sell and make money, not for peer review. It's pretty easy to sit back on the porch and throw stones while the people that are risking tens of thousands of dollars and actually doing the work give you something to occupy your time with, but it's really less than honorable to make up rumors because you can't afford the morphs that you drool over everyday and you hope that your false speculation will drive the prices down.

Every time you post, your agenda becomes more and more clear.

-adam

So..... How 'bout those pastels, JT? lol

(Sorry, just trying to steer back on topic... somehow Randy's managed to turn another thread into a discussion about a completely different morph than the one that was questioned in the thread)

I once read an albino thread that got turned into a Pastel/Spider/Co-Dom thread, and now this Pastel thread getting turned into a Spider thread. There's an active Caramel thread... I wonder why he's not in that post talking about Mojave's.

If my agenda is so clear how do you keep missing it? It's the people that are risking tens of thousands of dollars that need the information more than I do. If I eventually get a spider it will probably be far enough down the road that there will not be much left about the morph to discover and publicize. And like you Adam I'm not sure I would want to have to sell a lot of spiders.

And for the record, I didn't bring up spider in this thread. At least I avoided (until now) adding in caramel and woma/pearl, which I believe are also applicable to the current discussion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandyRemington

which I believe are also applicable to the current discussion.

---

Which discussion is that, the one that's titled "Pastel Question"?

Happy.....I split the thread ;)


Have at it Randy.....Fill us in on everything :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ddbjdealer

(Sorry, just trying to steer back on topic... somehow Randy's managed to turn another thread into a discussion about a completely different morph than the one that was questioned in the thread)

---

Public discourse is the very foundation this great country was founded upon. I happen to find these back and forths very informative. Obviously, Randy and Adam have differing views and they both do a very good job of keep things civil.

I say...no blood....no foul.:P

I have several super spiders.. Here is a pic of one of them.. You should see him wearing his cape:)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...tcage/cy01.jpg

ROFLMAO!!! thats too funny!

LMAO good one matt :P

Sometimes you just need a tension break..lol

Most definately!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandyRemington

If my agenda is so clear how do you keep missing it?

---

I'm not missing a thing Randy ... you're jealousy is very obvious at this point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandyRemington

It's the people that are risking tens of thousands of dollars that need the information more than I do.

---

And these people got together and elected you thier public spokes person? How do you know that these people need the information? If they have spent so much and are being lied to or misled as you so boldly suggest, where are their posts? Where are the threads on the BOI? So you're just asking on their behalf? How come you're the only person that brings it up? And finally, if you don't own a spider and don't plan on investing in one any time soon, what's the big rush for the information?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandyRemington

And like you Adam I'm not sure I would want to have to sell a lot of spiders.

---

To the contrary Randy ... I do want to sell spiders! The only problem is I will probably keep most of what I produce for my own breeding projects. You see, I LOVE the spider mutation and believe the you can NEVER have enough spiders in your collection ... males and females ... to date, they make the BEST combination morphs and are an amazing mutation all on their own. We'll see what I do with my 8 or 9 spider clutches this year ... I'm sure some will be for sale ... but the majority will be ALL MINE! :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandyRemington

At least I avoided (until now) adding in caramel and woma/pearl, which I believe are also applicable to the current discussion.

---

You just can't help yourself can you? :P

-adam

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by buckdawg

Public discourse is the very foundation this great country was founded upon.

---

I totally agree and in time ALL of the information about ALL of the ball python projects in existence will come out. There's not a ball python breeder in the world that isn't at least a little ego driven and they all sooner or later LOVE to share their secrets.

But remember, public disclosure of government activities is totally different than public disclosure of a business’s intellectual property. Does Coca Cole reveal their hidden formula? Does Microsoft put the code for windows up on public domain? Does Merck release the chemical make up of vaccines they create? While some companies do make their intellectual property public, others do not … and agree or disagree with the practice, I feel that you must respect the businesses right do make the choice either way. If you don’t like it, don’t patronize their business … that is your choice.

The thing that I have a problem with is the expectation that partial information or incomplete research should be released. It takes a lot of time to come up with the answers to all of the questions that people have and will have and no one wants to release half a$$ed partial data and not know what to say when people start asking questions where the only possible answer is "I don't know yet". The other thing that I have a problem with is the fact that Randy has somehow decided for the entire ball python world what the correct timeframe for the release of information is and accuses anyone that doesn't conform to his ideals of "hiding something" or worse.

The bottom line is SPIDERS ROCK! ... If you don't like them or feel that there is not enough information out there about what's going on with them, no one is making you buy one! ... There's no need to make up rumors or fantasize evil conspiracy theories about someone elses hard work ... in the end, all it does is hurt the project. Now you have to ask yourself ... why would someone want to hurt a ball python project? Jealousy maybe? .... I don't know for sure, but I do know that I LOVE ball pythons and it really boils my blood to see someone trying to hurt the hobby like that.

-adam

Quote:

---

And finally, if you don't own a spider and don't plan on investing in one any time soon, what's the big rush for the information?

---

If I knew more about them I might be more inclined to join the many breeders starting spider projects every year. Even though the spinning thing doesn't sound that serious the fact that it was kept from the public for so long has me a little gun shy on spiders.

Quote:

---

Does Coca Cole reveal their hidden formula? Does Microsoft put the code for windows up on public domain? Does Merck release the chemical make up of vaccines they create?

---

But they aren't selling the public little factories to make more of their product. Perhaps a better analogy would be their relationship with stockholders (stake holders in production of the company product). There are certain information sharing requirements for publicly traded companies and they are taken very seriously.

Quote:

---

The thing that I have a problem with is the expectation that partial information or incomplete research should be released. It takes a lot of time to come up with the answers to all of the questions that people have and will have and no one wants to release half a$$ed partial data and not know what to say when people start asking questions where the only possible answer is "I don't know yet".

---

The nature of snake breeding is such that it isn't practical to retain sole ownership of a project until it is fully explored and understood. In fact I think it's great that the originators are willing to share in their new projects and I agree that they should be handsomely rewarded for early sharing with their future competitors. However, once the decision is made to put a new morph into the public marketplace I think there is a responsibility to share information on possible problems. Sure it's a tricky situation when you consider the possible impact to those who have already bought into the project but waiting just passes the inevitable burden on to more and more smaller breeders. I think it's perfectly acceptable to say that you don't know yet but here is what you have seen so far and here is what you think is going on. I believe the buying public can be trusted to weigh the information for themselves and who knows, the public discussion might even result in an overlooked solution.

Quote:

---

Now you have to ask yourself ... why would someone want to hurt a ball python project? Jealousy maybe? .... I don't know for sure, but I do know that I LOVE ball pythons and it really boils my blood to see someone trying to hurt the hobby like that.

---

Nobody created any of the individual mutations so if some of them have a few problems no one is to blame. The only thing breeders can be held accountable for is what they do with the information as it's discovered. If the hobby or a mutation has no problems it can't be hurt. If there are problems, ignoring them will not make them go away, it will only pass the hurt down. I don't expect all mutations to be perfect and could easily love an imperfect one. But it would be nice not to come into it already blinded by devotion to the myth of a hobby where prices could stay high for ever and where we can trust the patriarchs to look out for everyone's best interest and decide for us what we need to know and when.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandyRemington

If I knew more about them I might be more inclined to join the many breeders starting spider projects every year.

---

But you don't and obviously you're too scared to call Kevin up and ask him, so what ... you're going to make up lies about super spiders laying on their backs and lethal alleles until the price comes down to the same price as the possible hets that you buy?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandyRemington

There are certain information sharing requirements for publicly traded companies and they are taken very seriously.

---

So you're electing yourself chairman of a new body governing the oversight of the ball python industry? ... Will you wear a cape? :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandyRemington

However, once the decision is made to put a new morph into the public marketplace I think there is a responsibility to share information on possible problems.

---

I agree, but with one exception. I don't feel that anyone has any responsibility to share any information with window shoppers. Information IS shared with the people supporting the industry by putting money into it. Those people are the gears that keep this machine going and it's those people that are owed information and explanations. The people that are sitting on the side lines throwing stones and whining about morph prices being too high aren't owed anything in my opinion. If you want to run with the big dogs put your money where your mouth is ... otherwise, wait it out and by the time you can afford the morphs all of the information will be figured out.

I have never bought a single morph without being informed about all of the possible issues, both real and imagined, with the animal and it's offspring. If you buy from a reputable breeder with a great reputation you'll get the skinny ... heck, even if you don't buy, most of the time if you just call them up and get them talking they'll tell you what you want to know ... but if you're waiting for the big guys to address the masses on a public forum it's just not going to happen ... at least I hope that it never does ... because in the end, all that will do is give the window shoppers and the bottom feeders more ammo to try and pick apart the hobby that I love over something as petty as jealousy.

-adam

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Ball pythons are big business not academia. Breeding projects are done to produce snakes to sell and make money, not for peer review. It's pretty easy to sit back on the porch and throw stones while the people that are risking tens of thousands of dollars and actually doing the work give you something to occupy your time with...

---

This is the very reason I want to kick commie college professors in the head as often as I can. Indeed, they exemplify pompous @$$es experiencing cranuim-gluteous inversion.