Ball python heating help

Hello, first I wanted to say this forum is awesome. I ran into this place because reddit sucked and was not help and was googling around and found you guys and so much better answers here and knowledge.

Anyways onto my little issue. I have my male python in a 4x2x2 pic enclosure. For heating I have a 50w Arcadia halogen heat lamp on a dimmer. I also have an Arcadia DHP during the day this doesn't turn on usually for night only. I also have usb shade dweller and a light for plants.

Where the issue I am getting is my hot side I believe is good and my cool side is too hot. How I am getting this info is on the hot side I have a basking box/hide. the surface reads 89-90 degrees with a temp gun and 85 inside the hide. just outside the hide entrance on the hotside I put a govee hydrometer and a temp probe on the floor and it read 84-85 (air temp I'm assuming)

on the cool side I put a temp prob and another govee hydrometer and it read 82-84 degrees(I'm assuming air temp) right outside her cool side hide. from what I read this is too hot. the issue is if I lower the temp on the hot side the basking area drops to 85-86 and the hot side air temp drops to 82-83. the cool side air temp drops to 81 still too hot.

so I am wondering what I should do. should I lower the air temp even more but then I won't a hot enough basking area or do I leave the basking area high and the cool side hotter then needed ? my last option which I don't want to do but may need to if you guys think it would make a difference is drill a 2" hole on the cool side lower and 2" hole near the top on the hot side and from what I understand that can help bring more cool air in?

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach....com/a/uLSh4X4im having trouble adding the picture so here is a https://imgur.com/a/uLSh4X4 https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach....com/a/uLSh4X4
I hope that works.
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach....com/a/uLSh4X4

How are you taking the temps? Are you using thermometers and probes or an IR temp gun? The air temps with the thermometer are an okay guide, but I would use an IR temp gun to get accurate temps on the ground where your BP is.

That's step one.

After you are sure of the temps at the ground (if you are not now) other heating option can be discussed. You likely want a radiant heat panel (RHP) or something similar instead of a bulb. BP's do not need intense lighting and heat from a bulb is not ideal. Further, as you will read below, bulbs are not very safe and cannot be controlled by a thermostat like a RHP can.

How are you controlling these heating elements? A dimmer on a bulb is not the most reliable way to control temps and if the bulb creates too much heat without it, should not be used.

You really need a thermostat to properly control temps. This is pivotal for the safety of your BP.

Let us know the answers to the above questions so we can help.

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Originally Posted by Wowdude11

I also have an Arcadia DHP during the day this doesn't turn on usually for night only.https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach....com/a/uLSh4X4

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Please clarify. Is your DHP on during the day or during the night only? If the DHP is on only at night, what are your nighttime temps? I wonder if the solution is to turn off the halogen and run the DHP 24/7.

Minor quibble: an incandescent bulb can be thermostatically controlled. A simple on/off stat would be expected to blink the bulb unacceptably, but good units such as Herpstats have settings that make incandescent bulbs usefully controllable. That's not to say that an incandescent bulb is a great option for a snake that isn't primarily a basking species.

What is the ambient air temp in the room? That will affect the temp of the cool side.

The light for the plants is adding to the heat in the enclosure. It looks like there are only plastic plants in the enclosure, though? The T5 UVB lamp is adding heat, too. Both of those could be replaced with an LED strip for viewing light and photoperiod if need be.

There doesn't appear to be any real ventilation in the enclosure; the photos seem to show only the two vents in the back near the top, and those won't move much air (since they're not placed to allow warm moist air to exit and cool drier air to enter). Part of the issue could be that the box is simply sealed up too tightly.

That enclosure will probably get some heat from the enclosure underneath it. If that's the case, raising the top enclosure on small spacers (1/2") that leave an air gap that's open to the room will allow heat from the bottom enclosure to dissipate into the room; four square 1/2" dowels, each 2 feet in length, placed under the top enclosure from front to back would do it.

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Originally Posted by Homebody

Please clarify. Is your DHP on during the day or during the night only? If the DHP is on only at night, what are your nighttime temps? I wonder if the solution is to turn off the halogen and run the DHP 24/7.

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Hello yes the DHP is off during the day and only on at Night. I could just use the DHP and see how those temps are. Is there any downside to not using the halogen bulb ?

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

Minor quibble: an incandescent bulb can be thermostatically controlled. A simple on/off stat would be expected to blink the bulb unacceptably, but good units such as Herpstats have settings that make incandescent bulbs usefully controllable. That's not to say that an incandescent bulb is a great option for a snake that isn't primarily a basking species.

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the halogen heat bulb is on a dimmer. So it doesn’t completely turn off. I also have the uvb bulb / plant light so if the halogen goes

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

What is the ambient air temp in the room? That will affect the temp of the cool side.

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the air temp in the room is anywhere between 75-77

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

The light for the plants is adding to the heat in the enclosure. It looks like there are only plastic plants in the enclosure, though? The T5 UVB lamp is adding heat, too. Both of those could be replaced with an LED strip for viewing light and photoperiod if need be.

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correct he likes to squish his plants. So I added fake one for now which he squishes. I eventually wanted to add another real plant. I did turning off the light to see if it affected heat. It did make any difference. I was thinking of switching to one of those led tho.

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

There doesn't appear to be any real ventilation in the enclosure; the photos seem to show only the two vents in the back near the top, and those won't move much air (since they're not placed to allow warm moist air to exit and cool drier air to enter). Part of the issue could be that the box is simply sealed up too tightly.

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this is what I was thinking is the most likely case. I was thinking of adding to 2” vents near the bottom cool side on the left wall instead of the back. And adding 2 of the same 2” vents on the other side on the side wall higher up near the heat lamps. Would this be too much air flow ? Or should I just add the one 2” vents hole on the cool side and see how it goes. Another option I was thinking is adding one of those computer fans on the outside of the vent on the back and have it suck out hot air. Not sure if that would work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

That enclosure will probably get some heat from the enclosure underneath it. If that's the case, raising the top enclosure on small spacers (1/2") that leave an air gap that's open to the room will allow heat from the bottom enclosure to dissipate into the room; four square 1/2" dowels, each 2 feet in length, placed under the top enclosure from front to back would do it.

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I’ll try this and see what changes

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Originally Posted by dakski

How are you taking the temps? Are you using thermometers and probes or an IR temp gun? The air temps with the thermometer are an okay guide, but I would use an IR temp gun to get accurate temps on the ground where your BP is.

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I am taking temps 3 different ways. one is heat gun to measure surface of basking area. Then I am using a govee hydrometer this sits on the ground to read air temp. I place a a second 2-in-1 Digital Thermometer & Hygrometer right next to it for accuracy . i check the air temp on both cool and hot side. you can see the sensors and govee in the pictures.

That's step one.

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After you are sure of the temps at the ground (if you are not now) other heating option can be discussed. You likely want a radiant heat panel (RHP) or something similar instead of a bulb. BP's do not need intense lighting and heat from a bulb is not ideal. Further, as you will read below, bulbs are not very safe and cannot be controlled by a thermostat like a RHP can.

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I am not using a heat gun on the ground just the probes and govee hydrometer. heat gun was only used on basking area.

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How are you controlling these heating elements? A dimmer on a bulb is not the most reliable way to control temps and if the bulb creates too much heat without it, should not be used.

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the halogen bulb is on a dimmer thermostat that controls the temperature to what ever i set it. the dhp is also just doesnt turn on until all other lights are out for the day.

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Originally Posted by Wowdude11

Hello yes the DHP is off during the day and only on at Night. I could just use the DHP and see how those temps are. Is there any downside to not using the halogen bulb ?

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Only if you are relying on the halogen to maintain a day/night cycle for your BP.

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Originally Posted by Homebody

Only if you are relying on the halogen to maintain a day/night cycle for your BP.

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in the tank i have the uvb bulb and grow light for plants. so i can stop using the halogen and just use DHP bulb

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Originally Posted by Wowdude11

in the tank i have the uvb bulb and grow light for plants. so i can stop using the halogen and just use DHP bulb

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Based on my understanding of how DHPs work I would imagine that they wouldn't raise ambient temps as much as a halogen light would, so this might just do the trick. If not, I'd try Malum's suggestion of putting a spacer between the enclosures. You don't want to go cutting holes in your enclosure if you don't have to.

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Originally Posted by Wowdude11

I eventually wanted to add another real plant

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This is not intended to sound at all snarky, but: why?

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Originally Posted by Wowdude11

I was thinking of adding to 2” vents near the bottom cool side on the left wall instead of the back. And adding 2 of the same 2” vents on the other side on the side wall higher up near the heat lamps. Would this be too much air flow ? Or should I just add the one 2” vents hole on the cool side and see how it goes. Another option I was thinking is adding one of those computer fans on the outside of the vent on the back and have it suck out hot air. Not sure if that would work.

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I don't have any standard recommendations for amount of vents, though I would be very, very hesitant to use a fan for ventilation. The advantage of passive ventilation (which operates on the basic physics of warm and moist air rising) is that it is self-regulating: when more is needed, more air flows; as the enclosure cools and dries out, less air flows. Fans can and do overventilate, unless there's a complex controller that takes into account both RH and temp, and even then hardware functionality isn't entirely reliable (especially RH meters).

I agree that troubleshooting other factors before cutting holes is best. My own practice if a little more venting is needed is to leave one of the sliding doors open a crack (keep in mind that the door needs to be secured against escapes; I use showcase locks on my sliding door snake enclosures).

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

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This is not intended to sound at all snarky, but: why?

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Honestly i just thought some plants would give the snake more of a feel of hiding. but he just runs them over.


I don't have any standard recommendations for amount of vents, though I would be very, very hesitant to use a fan for ventilation. The advantage of passive ventilation (which operates on the basic physics of warm and moist air rising) is that it is self-regulating: when more is needed, more air flows; as the enclosure cools and dries out, less air flows. Fans can and do overventilate, unless there's a complex controller that takes into account both RH and temp, and even then hardware functionality isn't entirely reliable (especially RH meters).

[Quote}I agree that troubleshooting other factors before cutting holes is best. My own practice if a little more venting is needed is to leave one of the sliding doors open a crack (keep in mind that the door needs to be secured against escapes; I use showcase locks on my sliding door snake enclosures).

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i never thought about that. im going to open the glass a little. also i turned off the halogen light and only have the DHP, and plant light on and uvb. ill see how it turns out

If what you're looking to provide is hides/cover, then there are lots of options that don't require light and don't die and won't get squished. I'm a big fan of cork bark -- both flats and rounds.

I agree. Plants don't mix well with most snakes- especially heavy-bodied snakes like BPs. You end up with conflicting care needs- snake versus plants, & your focus should always be on the snake.
Take lighting, for example: BPs (& most snakes) don't like bright light, but many plants do. And snakes are great plant-squashers. ;) There's just better alternatives to furnishing your snake's home than live plants- & they'll be more cost-effective too.

A little update i turned off the halogen bulb. im only running the DHP on a thermostat.

I also moved her hot hide so its directly under the DHP. Here are the results

Surface temp of basking spot 90 (with infrared gun)
hotside air temp 84 (just outside the hide with govee and temp prob)
Coolside temp right outside his hide 82 with govee and temp prob

i also turned off the the light for the plants and no change in temp. any other suggestions?

Im debating making those vent holes but i really dont want make holes if i dont have too

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wowdude11

A little update i turned off the halogen bulb. im only running the DHP on a thermostat.

I also moved her hot hide so its directly under the DHP. Here are the results

Surface temp of basking spot 90 (with infrared gun)
hotside air temp 84 (just outside the hide with govee and temp prob)
Coolside temp right outside his hide 82 with govee and temp prob

i also turned off the the light for the plants and no change in temp. any other suggestions?

Im debating making those vent holes but i really dont want make holes if i dont have too

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Give it time. A day. Even a week. If the temps don't are still too high, put the spacer between the enclosures that Malum suggested and see what that does.

Question: both in the past and as you make changes, where is the snake hanging out, and when it is hanging out where? I ask because while measuring temps is interesting and necessary, the snake will tell the keeper what it prefers. If it is always on the cool side, things might be a little too warm; if the snake is always on the warm side, it might not be the case that the cool side is too warm.

If a snake is always burrowing under the substrate, one thing that could mean is that it is seeking out whatever temp is down there (it could also mean it is seeking moisture, or a good hiding spot). If it is always pressed against a wall, maybe the temp of the wall has something to do with the behavior. And so on.

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

Question: both in the past and as you make changes, where is the snake hanging out, and when it is hanging out where? I ask because while measuring temps is interesting and necessary, the snake will tell the keeper what it prefers. If it is always on the cool side, things might be a little too warm; if the snake is always on the warm side, it might not be the case that the cool side is too warm.

If a snake is always burrowing under the substrate, one thing that could mean is that it is seeking out whatever temp is down there (it could also mean it is seeking moisture, or a good hiding spot). If it is always pressed against a wall, maybe the temp of the wall has something to do with the behavior. And so on.

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During the day he is always on the back left in his hide on the cool side. once the lights go off i see him go to the warm side right under the DHP for a little then crawls around his hide

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Originally Posted by Wowdude11

During the day he is always on the back left in his hide on the cool side. once the lights go off i see him go to the warm side right under the DHP for a little then crawls around his hide

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That could imply (a) that the overall temps are affected by the visible lighting, or (b) that the snake is avoiding the UVB (which is on the DHP side, yes?). Unless you have a good baseline on how the snake behaves without the UVB, it might be good to see how he behaves with it off for a few weeks (it would be good to use a meter to figure out where the irradiation zone is; this helps with figuring out how the snake is behaving in relation to it). Be careful not to adjust more than one thing at a time, otherwise you can't tell which variable is the cause.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

That could imply (a) that the overall temps are affected by the visible lighting, or (b) that the snake is avoiding the UVB (which is on the DHP side, yes?). Unless you have a good baseline on how the snake behaves without the UVB, it might be good to see how he behaves with it off for a few weeks (it would be good to use a meter to figure out where the irradiation zone is; this helps with figuring out how the snake is behaving in relation to it). Be careful not to adjust more than one thing at a time, otherwise you can't tell which variable is the cause.

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I think I’ll try two thing. One add a led light that’s adjustable in brightness so it’s no so bright but still has some day/ night cycle light.

second I’ll turn off the uvb( I thought uvb was good for them ? Is this wrong in thinking ?)

I’ll keep hearing the same for now.

last thing should I expect him to be active or out during the day ? I don’t think I have ever seen him active during the day.

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Originally Posted by Wowdude11

I think I’ll try two thing. One add a led light that’s adjustable in brightness so it’s no so bright but still has some day/ night cycle light.

second I’ll turn off the uvb( I thought uvb was good for them ? Is this wrong in thinking ?)

I’ll keep hearing the same for now.

last thing should I expect him to be active or out during the day ? I don’t think I have ever seen him active during the day.

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Ball Pythons are a ground/borrowing species and are nocturnal (active at night).

So a) UVB does not benefit them and b) you should not expect him to be active during the day.

UVB does benefit basking creatures, such as many lizards. So, not wrong in your thinking, just not applicable to BP's and many snakes.

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Originally Posted by Wowdude11

( I thought uvb was good for them ? Is this wrong in thinking ?)

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That's a question that is independent of whether the snake is avoiding the UVB. I'm not sure we get anywhere by saying flatly yes or no to 'is UVB good for this species', though it is important to figure out what are the benefits, risks, costs, and complicating effects of any element of care, and whether any benefits can be had in simpler ways and the risks, costs and complications can be avoided or minimized.