Nim the Bredli

After this snake arrived I had to take away his pvc scaffold while I acquired some endcaps. I did not want him trying to squeeze inside the pipes. He ended up outside of the bin, and I learned two things:

1. This snake sticks to and hates my palms as much as my ball python
2. He's very fast when motivated

I had trouble picking him up as he took off every time I touched him. I put on some gloves and he calmed down enough to be picked up (snakes really don't like my palms), but I failed to put him in the enclosure and he ended up loose again. I eventually put a hide on a short box in front of him, and moved the whole unit to the enclosure after he hid. It's unfortunate that he had to start with the stress of being chased around the room.

I also blacked out the enclosure sides and gave him a smaller water dish when I put the pvc pipes back in. He was a little disturbed and spent some time looking for a way out of the box. He seemed calmer today. He spent most of the day in his hide and is now sitting on the pipes. I noticed he was sticking partially out of his hide yesterday even though it's the same size as those preferred by my much thicker ball python, but today he seemed to fit.

Ambient temp is 80 and surface temp under one of the hides is 88. He has spent most of his time in the heated hide so far, and I have not observed him use the cool hide. Based on a source I don't completely trust, I'm thinking I should increase the day temp to 83 and let night temp drop to 75. In theory I think I should also increase the UTH daytime temp, but I'm wary of making it unsafe and I don't want to disturb him by constantly taking readings with a temp gun.

I look forward to moving him to a larger enclosure post-quarantine. I considered naming him Idris, but went with Nim because he's fast and I don't think he supports dependent typing.

Coming out of bag:
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...m/IMG_3209.JPG
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...m/IMG_3210.JPGhttps://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...m/IMG_3211.JPG
Poor snake losing his mind outside the enclosure:https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...m/IMG_3212.JPG
Sitting on pvc tonight:https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...m/IMG_3214.JPG
The whole setup now:https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...m/IMG_3215.JPG

I hope you two enjoy many happy years together.

It's what I charitably call a "period of adjustment" for you both- :rofl: End-caps (& foresight) for the win! I predict it's gonna get a lot better- very nice choice of snake, btw. :gj:

AM
Gobuchul,

Congrats on Nim! Bredli are awesome snakes.

There are some Morelia and specifically CP keepers here. Me included.

Do not be afraid to ask questions. They are a great species and you are the right track but know there are people here to help you.

Good luck and keep us posted!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gobuchul

After this snake arrived I had to take away his pvc scaffold while I acquired some endcaps. I did not want him trying to squeeze inside the pipes. He ended up outside of the bin, and I learned two things:

1. This snake sticks to and hates my palms as much as my ball python
2. He's very fast when motivated

I had trouble picking him up as he took off every time I touched him. I put on some gloves and he calmed down enough to be picked up (snakes really don't like my palms), but I failed to put him in the enclosure and he ended up loose again. I eventually put a hide on a short box in front of him, and moved the whole unit to the enclosure after he hid. It's unfortunate that he had to start with the stress of being chased around the room.

I also blacked out the enclosure sides and gave him a smaller water dish when I put the pvc pipes back in. He was a little disturbed and spent some time looking for a way out of the box. He seemed calmer today. He spent most of the day in his hide and is now sitting on the pipes. I noticed he was sticking partially out of his hide yesterday even though it's the same size as those preferred by my much thicker ball python, but today he seemed to fit.

Ambient temp is 80 and surface temp under one of the hides is 88. He has spent most of his time in the heated hide so far, and I have not observed him use the cool hide. Based on a source I don't completely trust, I'm thinking I should increase the day temp to 83 and let night temp drop to 75. In theory I think I should also increase the UTH daytime temp, but I'm wary of making it unsafe and I don't want to disturb him by constantly taking readings with a temp gun.

I look forward to moving him to a larger enclosure post-quarantine. I considered naming him Idris, but went with Nim because he's fast and I don't think he supports dependent typing.

Coming out of bag:
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...m/IMG_3209.JPG
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...m/IMG_3210.JPGhttps://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...m/IMG_3211.JPG
Poor snake losing his mind outside the enclosure:https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...m/IMG_3212.JPG
Sitting on pvc tonight:https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...m/IMG_3214.JPG
The whole setup now:https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...m/IMG_3215.JPG

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Congrats on the Bredli!

This species is extremely forgiving and tolerant of most mistakes. I also use a night drop, I actually do with every animal here. Your quarantine enclosure is obviously not going to allow for a variety of climate zones which is OK since it is younger and smaller than an established adult.

I found, and still do find mine to be extremely arboreal.

A night drop between 73-77 seems decent so I think you are OK there although, you could make it 78F for a younger snake in the event of stress or for an unseen health issue. 73 for a younger snake may be a tad cool. Breeders will cool them a lot prior to putting them together for mating. Getting a younger animal going is different as there are stressors involved we may not see.

Basking spots can be very warm, 98+ but I would stay cooler in a smaller enclosure since the snake won't have a lot of room to self regulate. 83 is not a bad temp and with a night drop to 76-77 your animal won't be in eternally hot conditions.

You can make small adjustments as you go and learn from your animal. I like to see some movement between warm and cool areas after feeding but again, you're limited to an extent with a smaller setup.

Keep us posted and enjoy!

Today I decided to check the hide temp, change water, and make sure cleaning wasn't necessary. Nim started climbing towards the CHE right after I removed his lid, so I had to pick him up while doing these things. He did fine, but it took a few tries to get him back inside the bin. At least I now feel a lot more confident picking him up while he's moving. I'm trying to leave him alone, but with the small size of this bin I think I'll often have to handle him when the lid comes off, just to keep him inside.

I'll have a shipment of pup rats for him this week, but I'm considering feeding him a f/t fuzzy from a local pet store this weekend (no store in town has any sizes between fuzzy and small.) I have a feeling he'll take it, and if he does I might try moving him to a larger plastic bin in the next week or so. Nim climbs a lot, and the space for it is so limited in this bin that I think he'll do better if moved to a larger one. I know the small bin can help with security, but if it's forcing me to wrangle him extra to fit him inside I feel like it might have the opposite effect.

If you don't have a larger tub yet, I've used these successfully with medium-sized snakes for quarantine or temporary housing, and it will give Nim lots of room to climb. Having extra latches on the long side of the lid helps keep the snake secured in the tub.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Hefty-25-Ga...Lid/1000505547

Fed Nim today. The good news: he ate well and didn't mind being moved back into the enclosure after wrapping.

The bad news: I saw a small black dot move across his head. I believe it must have been a mite. I haven't seen other evidence of mites yet, but I'm sure that I saw one crawl across his head.

I guess I should give him two days to digest before starting mite treatment, or is this something I should act on immediately?

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...m/IMG_3222.JPG

Glad Nim ate!

I have not had to deal with mites. I know many who have and I'll throw in my two cents but hope others fill in the blanks or correct me if I am off base.

I would let Nim digest and see if there is any other evidence of mites. Looks like you are using paper towels as substrate and that should show mites well. You might want to switch to a white water bowl, but you should be able to see mites with the paper towels underneath.

There are other insects that could find their way into Nim's enclosure. If you only saw one it is possible that it was not a mite. I am not saying there aren't mites but you want to be sure before treating.

Treatment can be rough even if necessary if mites are present. You want to be sure that is what you are dealing with before treatment. You also want to look into treatment options.

What were you thinking you would use if Nim has mites?

I hope others chime in here and talk about the best mite treatment options.

The most important things are to let Nim digest fully, make sure you are dealing with mites, and find the best and safest treatment option(s).

Good luck and keep us posted.

You're right to let him digest 2 days before jumping into treatment for mites (assuming you're correct that he has them- absolutely verify that first). But once you're sure that's what you're dealing with, don't waste time- get right on it as this is a battle that will be stressful for him & disrupt his meals too. Here's some relevant threads that might help you narrow your options:

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...=1#post2771656

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...s-looking-good

https://parasitesandvectors.biomedce...71-022-05611-1

Happy to say I've not dealt with mites in so long that I can't really comment on the latest methods, at least not first-hand. But in your shoes, I'd be inclined to try the Natural Chemistry spray first, to safely & quickly reduce the number of mites you'll be dealing with & while you order something stronger to ensure the cure is complete.

Another way is gently bathing (soaking) the snake in cool water to which a drop of Dawn or Ivory dish soap has been added, for about 20-30 minutes. You're not going for a "bubble bath here"- the tiny bit of soap is just to break the surface tension so the mites drown instead of floating & surviving. Obviously, this won't help the mites on the snake's head- don't push the snake's head under water. But this is a harmless way to again, safely reduce the number of mites while deciding on a stronger & more definite cure.

Mites reproduce exponentially fast & should not be underestimated. They're assumed to spread diseases & they do kill snakes, despite being so tiny- the blood loss really adds up in a snake's body. And they have a nasty habit of reappearing after initial treatments- don't underestimate them. If you see one or 2, there's many more, hiding under scales, under the eyes, chin, nostrils, cloaca... I don't think you have any natural stuff in there (?), like mulch or real branches- but if you do, throw them out, because mites leave tiny eggs that renew their population surge in about a month.

Thanks for the advice. You're definitely right that I can't be sure he has mites yet. I saw a small black bug, but it could have been a gnat or something. I'll verify more carefully before doing anything.

Keep your eyes open but don't get overly stressed.

This is one of the big reasons we use quarantine setups.

There is minimal cleaning in a tub like that and minimal space for mites to hide and reproduce. You can easily wash out that whole setup in a washtub sink or bathtub.

Its been a long while since I have had a new animal but when I would get something, I'd usually do a little soak prior to caging, and I'd use Reptile Spray on the snakes and have them work their way through some type of damp cloth.

I think you will come out of it just fine even if it is the worst case scenario.

I found several mites in the enclosure while changing Nim's water today. Tomorrow I'll soak the enclosure in warm enough water to wipe out the ones not directly on Nim. I'll also move the enclosure to hardwood floor to make cleaning the area around it easier. Killing any mites on Nim's head seems like the biggest challenge here. If getting natural chemistry reptile spray on his head would do it, I'd go for that.

Otherwise Afoxolaner looks interesting. I'm sure I could follow the methodology of that paper. I'd need to cut the tablet down to like 1/20th of its size (exact number pending weight of snake.) My only concern is in that study they just used the same dosage per kg that's given to dogs. This suggests we don't really know what the minimum effective dose is for snakes. I will look for more papers on the topic though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gobuchul

I found several mites in the enclosure while changing Nim's water today. Tomorrow I'll soak the enclosure in warm enough water to wipe out the ones not directly on Nim. ...

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For cleaning the enclosure, the water need not be warm- just need a bit of soap in the water to drown mites. As far as mites on his head, I'm not sure (I've never used Natural Chemistry spray) but I think I've seen where it's even safe to use on the snake's head? ***Please double check that, though.*** It's not a pesticide, it kills mites by desiccation. You wouldn't want it in the snake's mouth or nostrils. https://www.amazon.com/DeFlea-Reptil.../dp/B0002QIII8

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gobuchul

Otherwise Afoxolaner looks interesting. I'm sure I could follow the methodology of that paper. I'd need to cut the tablet down to like 1/20th of its size (exact number pending weight of snake.) My only concern is in that study they just used the same dosage per kg that's given to dogs. This suggests we don't really know what the minimum effective dose is for snakes. I will look for more papers on the topic though.

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If you decide to go the afoxolaner route, let your vet do it. Take your BP as well.

The sort of dosing you mention (cutting 5% off a pill) is not a very safe practice for a hobby keeper. But the drug is Rx, so the vet may be able to either make up an accurate dose or get one from a compounding pharmacy.

I've used PAM (Provent a Mite) for snake mites, and I have done a decent amount of research on its action (I use it for livestock, and human clothing treatment, as well). It is very safe, and very effective, when used as directed. It is also not a systemic drug when used as directed, which is a plus especially considering that Afoxolaner is not a well established treatment.

I personally would not use any off the shelf "natural" products to address a serious health concern for which there are safe approaches that work. Killing mites involves not only contact treatment of existing mites, but also a barrier to eliminate those that are in transit to or from the snake. I personally would also treat (with PAM or another permethrin spray) the area around the snake's enclosure -- mites travel at least a handful of feet. This is snake is in a different room from your BP, yes? If not (or if you've had any contact with the BP following contact with the Bredli) I'd personally treat both enclosures.

If you are 100% certain that these are snake mites (best with a vet diagnosis, which you'll be getting if you use the Rx drug), and that they came in on this snake, I would recommend reaching out to the seller to see what they say. I would also give some thought to publicizing the fact that the seller sold you a snake with mites, in order that other keepers may know. The hobby is way, way too tolerant of sellers who sell snakes with mites.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

The sort of dosing you mention (cutting 5% off a pill) is not a very safe practice for a hobby keeper. But the drug is Rx, so the vet may be able to either make up an accurate dose or get one from a compounding pharmacy.

I've used PAM (Provent a Mite) for snake mites, and I have done a decent amount of research on its action (I use it for livestock, and human clothing treatment, as well). It is very safe, and very effective, when used as directed. It is also not a systemic drug when used as directed, which is a plus especially considering that Afoxolaner is not a well established treatment.

I personally would not use any off the shelf "natural" products to address a serious health concern for which there are safe approaches that work. Killing mites involves not only contact treatment of existing mites, but also a barrier to eliminate those that are in transit to or from the snake. I personally would also treat (with PAM or another permethrin spray) the area around the snake's enclosure -- mites travel at least a handful of feet. This is snake is in a different room from your BP, yes? If not (or if you've had any contact with the BP following contact with the Bredli) I'd personally treat both enclosures.

If you are 100% certain that these are snake mites (best with a vet diagnosis, which you'll be getting if you use the Rx drug), and that they came in on this snake, I would recommend reaching out to the seller to see what they say. I would also give some thought to publicizing the fact that the seller sold you a snake with mites, in order that other keepers may know. The hobby is way, way too tolerant of sellers who sell snakes with mites.

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I have access to an accurate scale, so getting the dose right should be as simple as grinding up the tablet and doing it by mass. The treatment not being established is more of an issue, so PAM is a strong contender. I am sure these are snake mites, and will be more sure by the time I start any treatment. I won't use Afoxolaner without taking a much deeper look at the literature.

I figured I'd use water above 135F on the enclosure to hopefully take out the eggs as well as drowning the mites.

The research regarding Afoxolaner on reptiles isn't very compelling. Considering the small size of the quarantine tub, I think this situation lends itself well to provent a mite. I've ordered some, and won't be giving Nim any Afoxolaner.

Try the mild soap and water soaking method for an hour or so. Make it deep enough to fully submerge but shallow enough to let him get his head above water.

I have used the reptile spray and I did spray the body. I used a pre-saturated towel around the head area. The snake didn't particularly like it but I was able to get the spray onto the head and face area.

After I let him sit in a plastic enclosure for a time, I re-did the water soak and wiped him dry.

NOTE: My animal didn't have mites. I use the method with all new animals so my suggestion may or may not eliminate your problem.


Sorry to hear about this situation.


Good luck.

Is there an update on this situation?

I'm happy you caught things early on, and I'm hoping you have made a lot of progress eradicating the mites.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gio

Is there an update on this situation?

I'm happy you caught things early on, and I'm hoping you have made a lot of progress eradicating the mites.

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I treated the enclosure with PAM for the first time two days ago. I had been cleaning it out every other day, but hadn't managed to give Nim a bath. For that I'd have needed a larger tub, and I don't want to infect the larger tub yet. I have seen him soaking a fair bit though, and he seems to have successfully drowned a number of mites. In any case, I think that's secondary to the PAM, and I don't plan to make him take any baths at this point.

Nim ate again yesterday. He spilled some water in the process, so I replaced his paper towels except for the one under the hide he's occupying. I don't want to disturb him so soon after eating, but when I get the chance I'll replace the paper towel under his hide with a dry, freshly treated one.

I informed the seller about the mites last week. He acted surprised, but I'm skeptical. It seems more likely this is an ongoing issue for him that he thought had been taken care of.

Once the mites seem to be gone (hopefully in 2-3 weeks of treatment) I'll PAM the larger tub and transfer Nim over. It's not too large to continue treating with PAM, and it would allow me to avoid issues like the whole floor becoming wet from one spill of the water dish. I cleaned the lid of the enclosure this morning. There were several mites, some of which were still alive.

Where'd you get the name Nim from?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Homebody

Where'd you get the name Nim from?

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It's a programming language with syntax like python and speed like C. It seemed fitting because it was the speed of this snake relative to my ball python which stood out to me.

It also happens to be a game theory game, which is probably where the Nim language got its name.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gobuchul

It's a programming language with syntax like python and speed like C. It seemed fitting because it was the speed of this snake relative to my ball python which stood out to me.

It also happens to be a game theory game, which is probably where the Nim language got its name.

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Funny. I would have guessed a fantasy character.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Homebody

Funny. I would have guessed a fantasy character.

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Not this time. I do need to eventually come up with a name for my bp though.

I do not think the mite population has yet been greatly impacted by the PAM. The tub is easy to clean, so I think the problem must be from mites on Nim's body. Nim is soaking a lot and seems to drown a number of mites each time he does, so I am considering moving him to the larger tub this week. This will allow me to give him a water dish large enough to fully soak in at the cost of more difficult enclosure cleaning. I'll manually bathe him immediately before the transfer, and hopefully that plus bathing dish plus ongoing PAM is enough to prevent the mite population from bouncing back.

Maybe this isn't necessary and the PAM treatments just need more time to work, but I don't think there's much of a downside to using the large tub. Maybe it costs a little more PAM. Up-sizing will also make feeding without getting rat blood on the carpet easier.

PAM does not kill the mites on the snake. PAM kills the mites between feedings when they leave the snake to molt or lay eggs. The population won't decline much until the life cycle of the mite is broken.

"I cleaned the lid of the enclosure this morning. There were several mites, some of which were still alive. " If there were live mites on a surface that you had treated, then the surface quite possibly wasn't treated effectively enough.

Nim knocked over his water bowl today. I couldn't fit a heavy enough bowl in the small tub, so I spent the night giving Nim a bath and moving him to the larger bin. Thanks to bcr229 for the Lowe's bin recommendation, it's the one I'm using. I also moved the setup to a room with a hardwood floor because I didn't want mites to have cover in the carpet. Hopefully PAM on the outer edge of the enclosure keeps mites from egging the floor or their offspring from getting back in if they do, but I figure the move can't hurt.

I agree with Malum that the first application of PAM may not have been heavy enough. I followed the 1 second per square foot rule printed on the can, but erred on the light side. This time I used more.

I'm planning to put PVC climbs back into the enclosure. I'll have two sets, and swap them every other day. I will disassemble and soak the set swapped out, so I think the climbing opportunities will improve Nim's experience without compromising the mite extermination. I have also ordered a second pair of hides which I will treat in a similar manner. I'm using notebook paper as clutter, and plan to replace it every other day.

Nim really hated his bath. I got worried he'd hurt himself when he started climbing a thermometer wire, but I was able to take that away. He calmed down when I gave him a glove to hold, but had different parts of his body in and out of the water enough that I'm not convinced many mites were drowned. I took the glove away at the end to see if he'd soak more, but that just prompted him to really freak out and start climbing the walls.

Bath with emotional support glove:
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...m/IMG_3242.JPGAfter bath:
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...m/IMG_3244.JPG

Keep working on it.

Mites do need a live host to survive but the eggs can continue to hatch without effective treatment. Keep the soaks going and try the reptile spray and run him through a towel with the spray on. Soak again afterwards and repeat the process.

The areas around the eyes, nose and mouth are the tough spots to work on.

Fortunately, I've never had to deal with them so my advice isn't anything more than prevention type advice with some my own thoughts on how to attack the problem.

I feel for you as a Bredli is one of the easiest keeps when things are going well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gio

Keep working on it.

Mites do need a live host to survive but the eggs can continue to hatch without effective treatment. Keep the soaks going and try the reptile spray and run him through a towel with the spray on. Soak again afterwards and repeat the process.

The areas around the eyes, nose and mouth are the tough spots to work on.

Fortunately, I've never had to deal with them so my advice isn't anything more than prevention type advice with some my own thoughts on how to attack the problem.

I feel for you as a Bredli is one of the easiest keeps when things are going well.

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At least with the Bredli I can drop the humidity. It wasn't possible in the small tub, but in this bin humidity is just above 30%. Hopefully that slows the mites down.

I sure am afraid of spreading to my bp though. They'll be harder to eradicate there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gobuchul

At least with the Bredli I can drop the humidity. It wasn't possible in the small tub, but in this bin humidity is just above 30%. Hopefully that slows the mites down.

I sure am afraid of spreading to my bp though. They'll be harder to eradicate there.

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If you don't have them in separate rooms already, move them apart. You may have already had a quarantine room prior to getting the new animal and if so, that will reduce the risk of transmission.

Don't handle the snakes without washing up. Mites can hitch a ride on your clothing and you don't want that.

Hopefully you've made an impact on their numbers and can start getting the upper hand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gio

If you don't have them in separate rooms already, move them apart. You may have already had a quarantine room prior to getting the new animal and if so, that will reduce the risk of transmission.

Don't handle the snakes without washing up. Mites can hitch a ride on your clothing and you don't want that.

Hopefully you've made an impact on their numbers and can start getting the upper hand.

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Yep, they are in separate rooms. I don't approach the bp enclosure except immediately after showering.

Before that bath I noticed Nim was less active than before. After the bath and enclosure move, this was even more noticeable. I was concerned, but looking at his eyes today I can see he's definitely in shed.

Is a humidity in the mid 30s going to be ok for shedding? I'd rather not raise it for the mites if I don't have to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gobuchul

Before that bath I noticed Nim was less active than before. After the bath and enclosure move, this was even more noticeable. I was concerned, but looking at his eyes today I can see he's definitely in shed.

Is a humidity in the mid 30s going to be ok for shedding? I'd rather not raise it for the mites if I don't have to.

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Yes!

There is no need to increase humidity for Bredli. Your water bowl should provide plenty of moisture.

In THE MORE COMPLETE CARPET PYTHON, Nick Mutton mentions that too much humidity has adverse effects on the shed. I believe I have that source correct. If not, I read about it from another Bredli specialist.

I really hope you can kill off the mites.

You may still be able to get away with a soak or two if needed but I would not use any Reptile Spray until the shed is complete and he's had a day or so to adjust to the new skin.

I had started to doubt whether he was really in shed when I gave Nim a bath last weekend. He was sure acting like it, but I was less confident in the appearance than when I last posted. I just checked on him though and he's currently working off the shed. I'm not sure why I was able to see it before that post but not last weekend.

My BP is in shed as well, on her it's way more visible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gobuchul

I had started to doubt whether he was really in shed when I gave Nim a bath last weekend. He was sure acting like it, but I was less confident in the appearance than when I last posted. I just checked on him though and he's currently working off the shed. I'm not sure why I was able to see it before that post but not last weekend.

My BP is in shed as well, on her it's way more visible.

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I've found the Bredli shed is more difficult to detect.

This is a semi unrelated topic but I believe we went over the UV light topic before. I do think the species responds to natural light and I notice even without it, there are darker days and lighter days when it comes to their appearance.

Because of that, I sometimes have mistaken a darker day for a shed, and sometimes I've missed the early shed stages because I thought the boy was just darker on that particular day.

You were correct about the behavior cues leading to the shed, as the process involves more than a simple color change.

I was hopeful after the last bath because the recent shed meant Nim had fewer mites on his body. Two days after soaking Nim, cleaning the enclosure, and using more PAM than the can instructs, the mites are as numerous as ever. At this point I have tried this long enough to determine that this approach isn't going to work.

I'll take Nim to a vet, but then he's getting Afoxolaner one way or another. Well tested or not, I doubt it'll be worse than being chewed on by mites while PAM does nothing.

I know Homebody recommended bringing my BP as well, but I'm currently sure she doesn't have mites. The mites are super obvious in Nim's enclosure, and no signs in the bp's. I'd be worried about somehow cross contaminating them during transport.

Not all vets know that afoxolaner (NexGard) can be used to treat snakes for mites, or how to do it. So, I would share this article with your vet prior to your visit.

Do not use more PAM than the can instructs. I understand your frustration, but PAM is only safe when used as directed. Use it otherwise, and you risk nerve damage or death.

Good luck.

That's kind of odd. Are you spraying the paper when you replace it, and whatever hides and climbs and stuff are in the tub (not the water bowl, just to be clear)?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

That's kind of odd. Are you spraying the paper when you replace it, and whatever hides and climbs and stuff are in the tub (not the water bowl, just to be clear)?

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Yes, and the tub is extremely sparse. I'll spray quite heavily, and see mites crawling in the same area a few days later. They die by the dozen, but there are always more live ones cropping up in those places.

OK, so it isn't that the PAM is doing nothing. I wonder if they're breeding outside the tub -- I mean, they apparently must be.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

OK, so it isn't that the PAM is doing nothing. I wonder if they're breeding outside the tub -- I mean, they apparently must be.

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I thought they might be breeding directly on Nim. I know they're supposed to lay most of their eggs not on the snake, but I have seen quite a few of what I assume are eggs on him. I haven't seen any mites near the top of or outside the enclosure, but it's possible. I'll hit the outside of the enclosure as well when I PAM this weekend.

I scheduled the vet appointment for Monday morning, so these mites don't have long anyways.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gobuchul

I thought they might be breeding directly on Nim. I know they're supposed to lay most of their eggs not on the snake, but I have seen quite a few of what I assume are eggs on him. I haven't seen any mites near the top of or outside the enclosure, but it's possible. I'll hit the outside of the enclosure as well when I PAM this weekend.

I scheduled the vet appointment for Monday morning, so these mites don't have long anyways.

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I'd keep soaking him too, if I were you. That many mites don't take long to kill (or harm) a small snake...don't underestimate snake mites, please?

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I'd keep soaking him too, if I were you. That many mites don't take long to kill (or harm) a small snake...don't underestimate snake mites, please?

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Yeah, I'll keep the other treatments going.

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Originally Posted by Homebody

Do not use more PAM than the can instructs. I understand your frustration, but PAM is only safe when used as directed. Use it otherwise, and you risk nerve damage or death.

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I'm not recommending anything with this comment, but only pointing out some empirical findings. PAM has been tested at ten times recommended dosage, and found to be safe.

https://meridian.allenpress.com/jhms...ormulation-for

One way that permethrin can be dangerous is if it is not allowed to dry on the treated surface before reintroducing the animal (so, it is absolutely important to let it dry thoroughly, as the label states). Permethrin in solution is moderately dangerous; when it has dried on a surface it is quite immobile (this is why we can soak clothing in it safely):

http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/PermGen.html

Snakes don't take up permethrin through their skin well, even when it is in solution:

https://escholarship.org/uc/item/3850v3vg

Again, just pointing out facts here. :)

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

I'm not recommending anything with this comment, but only pointing out some empirical findings. PAM has been tested at ten times recommended dosage, and found to be safe.

https://meridian.allenpress.com/jhms...ormulation-for

One way that permethrin can be dangerous is if it is not allowed to dry on the treated surface before reintroducing the animal (so, it is absolutely important to let it dry thoroughly, as the label states). Permethrin in solution is moderately dangerous; when it has dried on a surface it is quite immobile (this is why we can soak clothing in it safely):

http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/PermGen.html

Snakes don't take up permethrin through their skin well, even when it is in solution:

https://escholarship.org/uc/item/3850v3vg

Again, just pointing out facts here. :)

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I stand corrected. Thanks, Malum.

Vet visit went well. Nim was surprisingly calm throughout, and they did prepare a nexgard solution. I'm not 100% confident in their weighing of him, so I'll double check that before treating (it came in lower than I expected at 0.28 lbs, but I haven't actually weighed Nim myself yet.) At least I know it's probably not an overestimate for the dosage. I fed Nim last friday, so I'll give him the nexgard rat in a few days.

I'd feel more confident overall if I had prepared the nexgard myself, but definitely less of a hassle to get the stuff this way. The vet also gave me ointment for his scar she thought might have been from a rat (which he arrived with, and which I suspect is a burn.) It seems already healed so I don't think that'll do anything, but I'll use it just in case. The vet said he looks healthy overall, but suggested I bring a stool sample in case the mites are indicative of other husbandry issues (worms.) I have no confidence in Nim's seller, so I'll probably do that.

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Originally Posted by Gobuchul

I'd feel more confident overall if I had prepared the nexgard myself, but definitely less of a hassle to get the stuff this way. The vet also gave me ointment for his scar she thought might have been from a rat (which he arrived with, and which I suspect is a burn.) It seems already healed so I don't think that'll do anything, but I'll use it just in case. The vet said he looks healthy overall, but suggested I bring a stool sample in case the mites are indicative of other husbandry issues (worms.) I have no confidence in Nim's seller, so I'll probably do that.

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Poor Nim. Fortunately, she's got you caring for her now.

Nim's actual weight is 291 grams, which is way more believable than 127 grams (.28 lbs.) I should have noticed at the vet, but didn't do the unit conversion. I'm going to adjust accordingly and give him just under 2.3x the prescribed dose.

I should've also asked whether they mixed it at 2.5mg/kg or 2mg/kg.

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Originally Posted by Gobuchul

Nim's actual weight is 291 grams, which is way more believable than 127 grams (.28 lbs.) I should have noticed at the vet, but didn't do the unit conversion. I'm going to adjust accordingly and give him just under 2.3x the prescribed dose.

I should've also asked whether they mixed it at 2.5mg/kg or 2mg/kg.

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Nothing wrong with your math, but you should still run it by your vet first.