my BP laid eggs after 11 years. help?

Hi, I've had this snake for 11 years. She came from a petstore, I did not buy her but an ex of mine did, he never cared for her and when we broke up a long, long time ago she stayed with me instead of him. I've always made sure she's totally take care of. You can probably see I have a history of some questions on this account from a long time ago.

Anyway, today I went to check on her and she laid eggs. I've been googling like crazy and watching videos for the past 2 hours before I do anything. I didn't move her off the eggs but the one I can see looks big and white. It's not really likely this is a viable egg... right? Like I said, she came from a petstore, she was about the size of my pointer finger when she was purchased. She's been a big 4.5 ft girl for a long time. What do I do, just freeze the eggs? Is there actually a possibility they will produce snakes? I know I need to take her off the eggs and wash her and the enclosure at least. Any advice before I take any action, I'd really appreciate. Thank you.

Sometimes they can be viable.

You have two choices:

1. Carefully move the female aside and take the eggs and freeze them. (I wash the female with water only-no need to deal with soap) If you have a big water bowl: throw her in there to deter the maternal reflex.
2. Leave the eggs with the snake and mark your calendar for 80 days: If they have not hatched by 80 days then remove the eggs and throw them away.

If you choose option 2 there is a small chance that you may have a clutch of hatchlings to deal with...so be prepared. :)

It's entirely possible that any eggs that look "good" (white, not deformed or slimy) may be viable. It's unlikely from mating (back in the pet store she was likely in with other snakes, but that's a long time ago), rather it's more likely parthenogenetic eggs ("partho" for short), accomplished solely by the mom snake & prone to defects, even if they hatch.

Your call if you want to try incubating them- I've done that before, & I currently have a couple snakes that are laying a bunch of eggs- they do this every year. Most are obvious slugs, but I've hatched 3 of them in the past. These snakes are now about 16 years old, & as they get older, fewer of their eggs look any good, but every year for the last 10 or so, they've each done double clutches- these girls are determined to reproduce! :) BTW, mine are Florida rat snakes (Yellow x Gulf Hammock x Everglades).

If you don't wish to incubate any, just freeze them all for a while to make sure they're non-viable before discarding. You might watch them for a while first, if you want- "good" eggs will develop veins that you can see when you candle them...it's pretty cool. But then it gets REALLY tempting to go all the way & see if they'll hatch- fair warning, lol.

BTW, in the past, I have deliberately bred various kinds of snakes & successfully hatched many offspring (not BPs). I strongly suggest that IF you want to incubate the eggs, that you separate them very gently & only keep the good ones. When freshly laid, they separate much easier- you have to keep the same orientation (don't turn or roll them); if you drip just a drop of water on the point of contact between eggs, it's much easier to separate them, but go slow. If all the eggs are left in a clump, the bad ones start to stink & draw flies, which can also affect any good ones.

Oh, and I suppose I should add that if you have a true viable clutch from parthenogenesis: any genetic issues from the mother will be amplified in the offspring.
Rumor has it that partho ball pythons also have a vastly decreased lifespan and reproductive issues at maturity, but, I cannot confirm.

Just FYI...:)

I agree with Lord Sorril ^ ^ ^ and you're truly better off just freezing all the eggs. Any resulting offspring can have both visible & internal defects, & in the long run, you'll probably regret incubating them. ;)

Years back I unintentionally got into breeding rosy boas after I was given one that had a single live partho baby neonate with multiple defects (one eye, bent neck, spinal bumps). I called the tiny snake "Long Shot" & she fed vigorously with a little help (from tongs) & shed about 8 times on her own, but then suddenly passed away around 8 mos. of age. From who knows what internal issue? After that, I paired up the "mom" with an unrelated male so she wouldn't make any more such babies, & she had many robust offspring (with never any defects) for a number of years thereafter.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

It's entirely possible that any eggs that look "good" (white, not deformed or slimy) may be viable. It's unlikely from mating (back in the pet store she was likely in with other snakes, but that's a long time ago), rather it's more likely parthenogenetic eggs ("partho" for short), accomplished solely by the mom snake & prone to defects, even if they hatch.

Your call if you want to try incubating them- I've done that before, & I currently have a couple snakes that are laying a bunch of eggs- they do this every year. Most are obvious slugs, but I've hatched 3 of them in the past. These snakes are now about 16 years old, & as they get older, fewer of their eggs look any good, but every year for the last 10 or so, they've each done double clutches- these girls are determined to reproduce! :) BTW, mine are Florida rat snakes (Yellow x Gulf Hammock x Everglades).

If you don't wish to incubate any, just freeze them all for a while to make sure they're non-viable before discarding. You might watch them for a while first, if you want- "good" eggs will develop veins that you can see when you candle them...it's pretty cool. But then it gets REALLY tempting to go all the way & see if they'll hatch- fair warning, lol.

BTW, in the past, I have deliberately bred various kinds of snakes & successfully hatched many offspring (not BPs). I strongly suggest that IF you want to incubate the eggs, that you separate them very gently & only keep the good ones. When freshly laid, they separate much easier- you have to keep the same orientation (don't turn or roll them); if you drip just a drop of water on the point of contact between eggs, it's much easier to separate them, but go slow. If all the eggs are left in a clump, the bad ones start to stink & draw flies, which can also affect any good ones.

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I appreciate your advice (and all the advice in here, so quickly-- this forum rocks)

I got so scared when she wasn't eating for such a long time, right before I saw the eggs I was googling reptile vets in my area. So my #1 priority is the snake I have, I did take her out, wash the entire enclosure, wash everything in it and air dry outside, and finally I just finished washing her (hissing at me the whole time, which she never does) and I'm letting her relax for awhile in a bin before I put her back in the enclosure. I didn't want to risk her not eating for longer.

From your advice above, I did end up separating the eggs (while gritting my teeth and with one eye cracked open, terrified to burst them open) and somehow I got them all separate without doing any visible damage and while keeping them in the same position they were in. Out of 9 eggs, 6 were definitely not good so I put them in a plastic bag in the freezer and I'll throw them out tomorrow. 2 of the eggs are big and white, and they go pink with lots of visible veins in the dark. The last one is like half white, with lots of visible veins/pink in the dark. I kept these 3. I put them in something I built quickly from stuff from Home Depot and Walmart which I got the instructions from this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0X67w_JWnsQ

So, I do understand that most likely nothing will happen with these eggs. Or, maybe they will hatch but not live. But weirdly, I also became a mother not too long ago for the first time in my life. And this snake stopped eating around the same time. So maybe if I didn't recently have a baby, I would have froze them all and been done with it, but I'm feeling a little too close to this one. If they pass away I don't think I'll come back and post about it, but if any of them live I'll let you know. If nothing happens, I cut the eggs in 60 days?

Day 60 is pretty average if you incubate at around 88-89F. They can sometimes take a little longer than 60 days to pip.
You can wait until one of them starts trying to cut out of the egg before you cut into it. If you do want to give the little ones a chance and see how they do, either just wait for that first little pip in one egg or cut on day 60.

You could also just wait and see what happens... but after day 68 if they haven't cut themselves out, they probably won't.

I hope you'll let us know the outcome, either way. Congratulations on your little one too- your feelings make total sense to me. FYI- once they start peeking out at you, you're "doomed"! :D

Good job separating the eggs, btw! :gj: I've separated many clutches successfully, never broke one, truly. Along with the drip of water just on the contact point, I slightly rock them towards each other, then away, until the contact point loosens. That's probably what you did just by instinct.

(I'm not an egg-cutter, unless others hatch out & one seems stuck- then I would. But that's me- you do you. ;) )

And you mentioned searching for a herp vet- are you aware of this site? https://members.arav.org/search/custom.asp?id=3661

My partho clutch adventure. Two babies out of eight eggs. Both are eating so we'll see how things work out for them.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...m-for-a-Decade

There are currently 12 alleged partho pythons (BPs, except for one retic) advertised on one of the big herp classifieds. Three of them are four years old. Six of the others are claimed to be clutchmates. Just interesting, I guess.

Given the higher probability of them having health issues I will be rehoming mine after a year, locally, as pet-only quality with a FROR contract if the next owner can no longer keep the critter. I'd be too worried about it getting resold/flipped as a typical healthy critter otherwise.

Hi... I'm back!
Out of 3 eggs, 2 got very gross and clearly were no longer viable (frozen and discarded).

The third egg.... seems to be doing fine, there is movement now.

So I have another question, assuming everything continues on the same for the next 30 days (at the midway point just now, or even a bit further on, because I might not have even found the eggs at first for a few days after she laid them).

What do I do if the snake comes out of the egg? Can I get some advice on a simple, low-cost place to keep the snake while I am waiting for the first shed? Obviously if it comes out looking okay, I want to make sure I am taking care of it correctly. I know how to care for a BP because, I've had one for over a decade but I'm very nervous about the period of time between where the snake is hatched and where it can eat/drink water/live like the one I already own.

I don't have anything prepared for another snake because I'm just waiting to see what happens, but since there is movement I should probably start to think about preparing the temporary place the snake goes after it hatches, just in case.

I linked the thing earlier in this thread but I'll also just spell it out here, the way I am incubating this is the most low cost/DIY way I could find on the internet, I am using a cooler, fishtank water heater, the thing that circulates air in the fish tank, and then I used some PVC pipe to sort of suspend a plastic shoe box (with some tiny tiny holes in it) and in that shoe box is the typical setup with perlite and the egg sitting on a light diffuser. I have a digital thermometer inside the shoebox so I know the temp is always 88-90 and it's 99% humidity. Some people are saying they keep their hatched snakes in the incubator but... I can't keep it in that, or can I?

Thanks, if anyone can help...

A setup like the one in this thread is a great way to start:
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...nclosure+setup

a baby typically won't eat until after they have their first shed, so no worries until then. I like to keep them in the egg tub in the incubator until they shed.
I put a heat pad on a thermostat under one half of the tub and keep that at 86-88F.

After a couple of months I'll move them up to the next size.

Thank you for everyone for all your help in this thread. If my snake had the eggs the day I found them, today would be 58 days. I think it’s possible she had them 5 days or so before. So I think today I have to cut open this remaining egg. The snake is definitely moving in there. If I put a small flashlight on it, it’s the shape of a snake. And the egg is looking dehydrated.

I don’t see any signs of the snake coming out on its own.

I am so so scared. Does anyone have any articles they can point me to about how to do this correctly?

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Originally Posted by movingthestars

I am so so scared. Does anyone have any articles they can point me to about how to do this correctly?

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I have a clutch that has just started hatching after 70 days.

Not sure who was responsible for first recommending cutting eggs pre-emptively, but, they gave devastatingly bad advice to others in the hobby. I don't respect any breeder that cuts eggs before first pip.

Cut at great risk. Take a pair of scissors and wipe the blades with 70% Isopropyl Alcohol and make sure you air dry them (do not touch them). Wash your hands with soap and water and then pinch the top part of the egg so that you can squeeze it together and ensure the snake will not be injured, then make a 0.5" (~1.3cm) incision on the folded section. Your goal is not to cut the snake out of the egg, but, to provide them a means to reach more oxygen and gain the strength to push their way out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lord Sorril

I have a clutch that has just started hatching after 70 days.

Not sure who was responsible for first recommending cutting eggs pre-emptively, but, they gave devastatingly bad advice to others in the hobby. I don't respect any breeder that cuts eggs before first pip.

Cut at great risk. Take a pair of scissors and wipe the blades with 70% Isopropyl Alcohol and make sure you air dry them (do not touch them). Wash your hands with soap and water and then pinch the top part of the egg so that you can squeeze it together and ensure the snake will not be injured, then make a 0.5" (~1.3cm) incision on the folded section. Your goal is not to cut the snake out of the egg, but, to provide them a means to reach more oxygen and gain the strength to push their way out.

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thank you for saying this. I can definitely wait a few more days and see, it’s just really daunting to start reading about hatching BP eggs online and a lot of the site are like “if you don’t cut them out at exactly the right time they will die (and it will be your fault)” okay not that last part explicitly… but that’s what it seems like. I think this snake has a chance of actually surviving now and I just don’t want to mess it up. Would you recommend me helping it out at some point if it’s not hatching?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lord Sorril

I have a clutch that has just started hatching after 70 days.

Not sure who was responsible for first recommending cutting eggs pre-emptively, but, they gave devastatingly bad advice to others in the hobby. I don't respect any breeder that cuts eggs before first pip.

Cut at great risk. Take a pair of scissors and wipe the blades with 70% Isopropyl Alcohol and make sure you air dry them (do not touch them). Wash your hands with soap and water and then pinch the top part of the egg so that you can squeeze it together and ensure the snake will not be injured, then make a 0.5" (~1.3cm) incision on the folded section. Your goal is not to cut the snake out of the egg, but, to provide them a means to reach more oxygen and gain the strength to push their way out.

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THIS! ^ ^ ^ :gj:

Thanks you guys, please just remember if you didn’t read back this thread that I wasn’t trying to have an egg but life just happens like that sometimes I guess. I’m really doing my best and would love to bring a healthy baby snake to this world. I’m actually about to go to the monthly reptile expo near me, randomly it’s today and I need rats for my BP anyway, maybe I’ll try to talk to someone there also. I guess like anything else everyone is going to have different opinions about it.

But I did decide not to try anything today.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by movingthestars

thank you for saying this. I can definitely wait a few more days and see, it’s just really daunting to start reading about hatching BP eggs online and a lot of the site are like “if you don’t cut them out at exactly the right time they will die (and it will be your fault)” okay not that last part explicitly… but that’s what it seems like. I think this snake has a chance of actually surviving now and I just don’t want to mess it up. Would you recommend me helping it out at some point if it’s not hatching?

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If the egg doesn't hatch then something went wrong. 2/3 of your eggs have died so far, which leaves 1 with poor odds. If you cut the egg then you lower those odds even further.

Something I run into with eggs that I am forced to cut-is that the snake is underdeveloped and/or is often missing vital anatomy. Cutting the egg only speeds up their demise.

Youtubers often claim that the 'umbilical cord' can get wrapped around the neck of the developing snake-and cutting the egg magically helps them. I have done dozens of necropsies over the years, the yolk stalk connection is always stable. This is bull****.

Okay, me again. So, here's what happened and then I have a question.

First of all, I apparently can't count (I think I was just getting way too stressed about this snake not coming out when I thought it should) so my day count in my last post was off anyway which I realized the same day I posted last. Whether I should have or not, I was checking on the egg once a day and seeing it move at that point. So then on Saturday, it wasn't moving and it felt like something was wrong. I did end up cutting an opening on Sunday when it still wasn't moving, I see now that is controversial here and maybe it's not even what I should have done, who knows, but that is what I did. The snake really didn't seem to be moving at all and I couldn't see it's head so I was really just convinced it was dead in the egg. But I left it in the incubator that night. And still Monday it didn't seem to be moving. But today, the head was out and it was sticking its tongue out!

By maybe like an hour ago, it was more than halfway out. But I could see something twisted around its lower body. I also see the previous poster here says that maybe wasn't an issue? But in this journey I really have seen so many videos of people saying having that twisted around the snake could kill it. So I don't know if this is right or not, but I untwisted it. And the snake seems to have absorbed most of it.

So my question is like this. To me, this snake looks fine. It doesn't look deformed or kinked. It looks like it has strong muscle tone. It looks basically like a normal snake, except that where the cord is going in, it is looking a little soft on the belly and I think that is because of how it was wrapped like it was. But even looking at the snake, I feel like the muscles are moving down there and the little bit that is left is getting sucked in?

Do you think the yolk/cord situation is an issue or most likely it will just get absorbed in? After I untangled it, I left the snake in the incubator and I left the lower part of the body and the yolk in the egg. I'm going to add photos right after this but I have to do it on my phone.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...m/1ovz5NH.jpeg

Okay, here you can see how it was wrapped around tightly.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...m/fPt7LKS.jpeg

Then here this is after I unwrapped it you can see how where it is connecting in the belly is distended? I'm just leaving it alone to see if it hopefully is absorbed, do you think it will be okay?

The yolk and stalk is still attached-so the snake was still absorbing nutrients. Of course you would not normally see this-and this would not be an issue if the egg was not cut. Manually manipulating it was/is the worst thing you could do.

You are lucky that it is pretty well developed at this point so even if it panicks and severs the yolk stalk it will probably do fine. If the hatchling stays calm it will absorb the remaining nutrition and break the connection normally.

Whatever mistakes you've made aside, we're all rooting for your success. So, please keep the updates coming.

I get pretty nervous just with breeding some new-to-me species for my first time, to say nothing of my first eggs ever (and completely unexpected ones, at that). That nervousness motivates more well-intentioned mistakes than I would want to admit, even in someone who has a fair amount of relevant experience. You're doing great here, @movingthestars. :)

Awww, I'm rooting for the little one!

Do remember that regardless of cutting the egg, partho babies are notorious for being a failure to thrive. If something does happen, I honestly do believe it was just the nature of this and nothing that you have done. You have done better than most people in a situation like this...and even better than some I've seen claiming they know what to do and wanted to breed.

Just keep them quiet for now and if you can get the paper to be a bit more damp that will be best. They sometimes take a while to absorb the yolk and even after can have a distended look to the belly. They will also have a small wound at the 'belly button' for a couple of days. That usually heals up by the time they have the first shed.

Don't try and offer food until after they had their first shed. I usually keep mine in the incubator on a damp paper towel until they shed. Once they do, I move them to a tub or shoebox with a small water bowl and give them a couple of days to settle in. After that I try them with a live hopper mouse or rat fuzzy. If they don't go for it, give them 5-7 days and try again.

Thank you for all the kind words in here. I do feel extremely responsible for whatever happens and very guilty and anxious.

I'm going to share a picture of where we are at as of this morning. It looks gross to me still, but a MILLION times better than it looked yesterday. If you had asked me yesterday afternoon, I would have said there is something internally wrong with this snake (I mean the belly area was looking so swollen). But as of now, it has gone down to a normal size. And what is left is this gross looking bit, and there is some damage around it I think from dragging around when it was connected.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...m/FDAtca4.jpeg

The snake overall is still extremely alert and active, lots of moving around, lots of tongue flicks.

I had moved it off the grate thing into the same type of plastic box but with just one layer of damp towel, so I also changed the paper towels towels to clean ones and got rid of the ones with blood and other gross stuff on them (thankfully seems to be no more of that), and put a little water dish.

Thoughts about this picture? Still so nervous. Do you think it will continue to heal up? Snake is back in the dark incubator on damp towels and I won't check on it again for another 12+ hours.

How is this baby now?

Would love updates. This is the first time I've heard of partho babies!