URGENT: Need Advice About Ball Python Swollen Face

Hello. My two years and five-month-old male ball python, Poltergeist, has a badly swollen face, which I believe three things could be responsible: RI infection, damage from rubbing/pushing his enclosure or allergic reaction to a painted castle thing designed for fish.

For the RI, there is no discharge coming from his mouth but there is a slight "whistle" noise when he breathes. He has stopped eating ever since the swelling occurred, which beforehand, he ate anything I gave him. Another reason why I suspect it to be possible RI is because his humidity may have spiked too high sometimes, as I read it at 80% occasionally (though, it is usually 65-70%). Also, there was another thread I read somewhere on the internet that sometimes RI, in rare cases, causes swelling...
For the rubbing/pushing cause, I heard him at night trying to get out of his plastic bin enclosure that measures roughly 32x14x14 inches. Also, the plastic from the air holes sticks inward in the enclosure, which he could have injured himself on (I'm currently trying to get them removed). What makes me uncertain about his face being injured is that there is no apparent injury, puss or anything inside his mouth or outside. The only issue is that his face looks grossly distorted, and he refuses to eat.
For the castle, the swelling occurred just around the time I installed the castle for him to climb on. He could be having an allergic reaction to it but I removed him from his enclosure and into the "hospital" bin. He's been there for a couple of days now and there was no change in his swelling when I did this. In fact, it seemed to have gotten worse.

Treatment I've tried: I moved him to my small "hospital" tub and amped the hot spot to 95 degrees Fahrenheit, removed any water (bowl and spraying) to try and see if the moisture from his face will go away (I heard that this was tried on that thread about the rare RI but the results were not there). His swelling has slightly gone down but I could just be seeing things. I have also given him vitamins to boost his immune system (a liquid for reptiles containing glycerin, deionized water, vitamin A palmitate, niacinamide, riboflavin, cholecalciferol, ascorbic acid, thiamine hydrochloride and pyridoxine hydrochloride). It says it has vitamins A, D3, B1, B2, B6 and C in it.

Enclosure: A springtail bioactive with false bottom, coconut chip bedding with bioactive dirt with charcoal, two of the same plastic hides, one castle hide in the middle for him to climb on, roughly 30x14x14 inches plastic tub, hot spot 87-90 degrees Fahrenheit, ambient 70's-80's degrees Fahrenheit, heat mat with thermostat. I was having trouble getting the heat mat the correct temperature for a little while, because the plastic is thick and I didn't want to burn him, so it might have been too cold for a couple of days but I don't remember. I have a heat gun, btw.

Temperament: Besides refusing to eat, he acts normal. He is active and moves around when out. If I let him on the floor, he explores like he usually does unless he's "balling-up." I haven't been holding him ever since I noticed the swelling. Normally, I leave him alone and only hold him once or twice a week. I occasionally take him outside to explore.

I would greatly appreciate it if someone could give me advice. I am willing to go to a vet but it's expensive and I don't see how the vet could help (if they could, please tell me how). I don't want to spend money for nothing, as I'm borderline broke, but I'm more than willing if that's the only thing that can be done.

What do you think is going on and what should I do? Thank you.
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Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoldKingCobra

For the rubbing/pushing cause, I heard him at night trying to get out of his plastic bin enclosure that measures roughly 32x14x14 inches. Also, the plastic from the air holes sticks inward in the enclosure, which he could have injured himself on (I'm currently trying to get them removed). What makes me uncertain about his face being injured is that there is no apparent injury, puss or anything inside his mouth or outside. The only issue is that his face looks grossly distorted, and he refuses to eat.

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I vote pushing injury. I kept my adult male bp in a similar enclosure. I moved him to a larger one when he started injuring himself pushing. Likewise, my bp's only injury was swelling.

"I don't see how the vet could help (if they could, please tell me how)"

A vet can (a) diagnose whether there is local infection; (b) determine how far that infection has spread (skin/tissue/bone/oral mucosa/systemic); (c) determine whether or not an RI is present; (d) recommend further more extensive diagnostics; and (e) prescribe effective treatment. I would guess they would make sure there's no RI, prescribe systemic antibiotics to address any infection, and recommend improving the enclosure situation. The only thing online forum users can help with is the last item on that list.

"if that's the only thing that can be done." Waiting and monitoring is an option, though one possible outcome is that the snake declines enough to where a vet won't be able to do anything to help. Administering vitamin supplements is an option, though a very bad one since this isn't an immune system issue, and overdosing Vitamin D3 and especially Vitamin A in rodent eaters is a real possibility. Seeing a vet isn't the only thing that can be done, but in situations where there is an obvious medical issue but it isn't at all clear exactly what that issue is nor exactly how it should be treated, seeing a vet is the best thing that can be done.

I do a fair amount of DIY snake medicating and treatment, but I would take this one to the vet, personally.

I don't like how the swelling is also affecting his eye socket. That's approaching dangerous territory there. Especially if the swelling is still increasing.

What is Polter eating? Is this possibly a rodent bite?
Is this bioactive soil one you purchased? Or did you collect it?


I worry that if this isn't a pushing injury, this could be a bacterial or fungal infection which definitely would need medical intervention

Edit: Also! How long has this swelling been happening? How long has he been in iso? Some people call a week a couple of days... Some mean 2 days. Lol

I suggest that you see a qualified (experienced with herps) vet A.S.A.P.- & this site can help you find one: https://members.arav.org/search/custom.asp?id=3661

I recommend NOT using "castles" & such decor designed for tropical fish in snake enclosures, because ones I've come across have very sharp edges left inside, here & there, which apparently doesn't bother fish but can cut up a snake pretty bad if they try to wedge in for a sense of security, or can cause a very infected puncture wound to a snake that's just innocently exploring. I would not think "allergic reaction"...much more likely a small infected cut. (And did you wash & disinfect the "castle" first, before putting it in his home?) Personally, I'd donate it to someone with fish.

I wouldn't be eating either if my face was comparatively as swollen as your snake's face is. Ouch. And head infections are near vital functions (eating, breathing, eyes, brain...BRAIN) so infections can get serious pretty fast if ignored. And if you don't know, snakes generally have solid pus, so infections don't drain without help- they require the delicate surgical skills of a veterinarian to to remove abscesses, which might be what this is. Left alone, infections can spread too. Your snake likely needs antibiotics...prescribed correctly from a qualified vet.

95* F. is too hot- can make a bad situation worse by causing thermal burns to your snake. And temperatures too cool can mean the snake's immune system won't function so well -ie. they can have more trouble fighting off an infection. Very important to get the temperatures corrected & reliable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

95* F. is too hot-...

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Is it? The forum's care guide lists basking as 88 to 94F. 95F is only a degree higher, and I've heard others (including my vet) recommend bumping up temps when your snake's fighting an infection.

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Originally Posted by Homebody

Is it? The forum's care guide lists basking as 88 to 94F. 95F is only a degree higher, and I've heard others (including my vet) recommend bumping up temps when your snake's fighting an infection.

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To be honest, it's been a while since I looked at the forum's care guide (as I no longer keep BPs); it was written in 2010 & I remember thinking at the time that it could use some updating.

I think most of us have been going with 88-90* as the safe upper limit these days, to error on the side of safety. In part because there can be some inaccuracy (a couple degrees) when taking temps.

Safety has to come first when bumping up a few degrees when a snake is fighting an infection...which yes, is something that's done, but not if it puts a snake at risk of thermal burns. If a BP has 89* for the warmest temp & needs a few degrees more for an infection, then trying 91-92* max isn't so bad, IF you keep an eye on them (which you'd do if they were sick, right?). But I would still be cautious if going over 90* because some BPs can be very slow to catch on that they're too hot. Who knows why that is?

Could also be an impacted/infected tooth from pushing or just being an overly enthusiastic eater. If it is then the snake needs antibiotics.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Homebody

Is it? The forum's care guide lists basking as 88 to 94F. 95F is only a degree higher, and I've heard others (including my vet) recommend bumping up temps when your snake's fighting an infection.

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Afterthought on this: Another way to "raise the temperature" for an ailing snake is just to increase the warmer area's size. It's what I'd prefer to do, anyway.

For example, say you have 1/3 of the enclosure floor at 90*, with a gradient to lower temps (about 78*) at the other end. I would try to have half the enclosure @ 90* while maintaining the other half at about 80* if possible. For safety, a snake MUST have cooler temps. to retreat to as needed, so it gets tricky but with a very watchful eye, this is what I'd prefer to do, as opposed to bumping up the warmest temperatures to something that might prove unsafe & harmful.

Thanks for the help, everyone! I'm going to take him to the vet. Lucky for me there's a "local" exotic one. I'll give an update as to what's going on and his treatment.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Armiyana

I don't like how the swelling is also affecting his eye socket. That's approaching dangerous territory there. Especially if the swelling is still increasing.

What is Polter eating? Is this possibly a rodent bite?
Is this bioactive soil one you purchased? Or did you collect it?


I worry that if this isn't a pushing injury, this could be a bacterial or fungal infection which definitely would need medical intervention

Edit: Also! How long has this swelling been happening? How long has he been in iso? Some people call a week a couple of days... Some mean 2 days. Lol

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Poltergeist was eating frozen thawed rats. I never feed live. The soil is a reptile-made one off of Amazon. I think it's from Zilla, called forest jungle mix. I also added bioactive charcoal soil from Josh's frogs. The majority of the bedding is coconut chips also from Amazon that are made for reptiles.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Homebody

I vote pushing injury. I kept my adult male bp in a similar enclosure. I moved him to a larger one when he started injuring himself pushing. Likewise, my bp's only injury was swelling.

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How big of a cage do you recommend? The one he was in is very large compared to his size. Would I need to get a bigger one or just add branches or something for him to climb on?

As far as cage size, there's more than one issue, & snakes are "individuals" too (they might not all be looking for the same thing).

For an adult male BP, on average most (in the US*) tend to think that an enclosure that's 3' long & 18" wide is good. It's safe to assume that many breeders provide less than that, while some private owners prefer to go bigger, & apparently keepers in Europe/Germany (etc.) tend to favor much larger enclosures than in the U.S. So there's no easy answer.

Height of enclosure can be important: Snakes are less likely to rub their heads/noses (on the "ceiling") when it's higher (harder to reach). But the downside is that with a taller enclosure comes the fact that more air space is that much harder to heat & to keep humid enough for a BP. :confuzd: No one said this is easy...;)

If your snake is being restless, it's important to find out why before you try to fix it. It might not be that he wants more space...only that he's uncomfortable with what he's got. This could mean not enough 'cover': does he have a cool side hide AND a warm side hide? & are they the right type? (what exactly are you using for him? Sizes & types?) It could also mean temperatures aren't comfortable- too warm or too cool. Time to recheck that.

BPs may climb a little over lower branches- they might also appreciate more "clutter" (fake plants, etc). Also, if his home is in a busy part of your home, that too might be unsettling to him, & make him push to escape. Or if there's other issues going on- other pets nearby, loud music (vibrations) etc.

Hunger can also make a snake want to escape to go hunting for more food. Is he being fed enough? (Since we're not seeing him...) Vet can help w/ this too.

I would reassess all this first, rather than quickly changing his home, as that too is very unsettling to a captive snake. But right now, it's important to figure out if he's pushing on his face, & if so, why? The vet can help figure out if that's what likely caused this swelling. (By ruling out other things like an impacted tooth, etc.) Sadly, this is an issue that we see now & then with captive snakes, not just BPs. (We see more BPs here just because of the forum name but many here have all kinds of snakes, myself included.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoldKingCobra

How big of a cage do you recommend? The one he was in is very large compared to his size. Would I need to get a bigger one or just add branches or something for him to climb on?

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When I said that I kept my bp in similar enclosure, I was mistaken. Mine had a similar footprint, but only half the height. So, I don't see anything wrong with the size of your enclosure.

The biggest problem I see with your enclosure is those plastic burrs around the airholes. If he's rubbing against those, they could cause a lot of damage. Also, for more privacy, you could cover the sides.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

For an adult male BP, on average most (in the US*) tend to think that an enclosure that's 3' long & 18" wide is good.

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An average adult male is a little more than 4 feet, I think. I am under the impression that the calculation for minimum floorspace is (length of snake) X 2 = cage perimeter. That makes a 36" x 18" a minimum footprint on the standard recommendation, not a good one. Maybe I'm misunderestimating hobby standards, though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

An average adult male is a little more than 4 feet, I think. I am under the impression that the calculation for minimum floorspace is (length of snake) X 2 = cage perimeter. That makes a 36" x 18" a minimum footprint on the standard recommendation, not a good one. Maybe I'm misunderestimating hobby standards, though.

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Yes, I agree that's minimum standards & not ideal, just saying it's a typical ball-park suggestion, especially considering that so many insist they're fine (or better off?) with less space, in racks & tubs which I personally don't like at all- but I can't change the world. ;) It might even be inadequate by current Fish & Game standards? But even those vary by what state you're in. When I kept BPs, my adult males were at least 4' & they weren't that old- they had a lot of potential growing yet to do, & were in 4' x 16". I'm in favor of encouraging "optimum" standards rather than minimum.

BTW, our own forum care guide (https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...us)-Caresheet) says the following (& with which I disagree):

"For juvenile BPs up to 2’ a 10 gallon (or equivalently sized) enclosure is adequate. For adults an enclosure 36x18x12” should provide them with enough room for the duration of their lives."

The thing is, a 10 gal. size is roughly 20" long x 10" wide- so picture a 2' BP being comfortable in that- & remember they need warm & cool hides + a water bowl at the very minimum. One big problem with small enclosures is trying to get the right temperature gradient...it's nearly impossible in a 10 gal. size.

That goes on to say an enclosure that's 36 x 18 x 12" should suffice for the life of a BP- it doesn't differentiate between male BPs that stay smaller (usually) & female BPs that mostly get much bigger. I personally had a huge 5' female BP- obviously a "breeder tank" size isn't always big enough. So yeah, I personally think this "care sheet" should be updated. Also with respect to temperatures, & probably other things- that's why I don't normally refer people to it. ;)

UPDATE: I took him to the vet and they are not sure what's going on, only that there is no puss or liquid building up in his face--it's tissue. So, they suspect he injured it somehow or got a splinter (I had a wooden piece in there). As for now, he's on anti-inflammatory medication, Metacam, where 0.02ml of it is injected in his muscle once every other day for 10 days. If this does not work, I'm going to have the vet do a culture and send it to a university to figure out more what's going on.

As for my cage issue, if he survives, I'm removing the substrate to one that absolutely does not have wood/coconut pieces in it (he liked to burrow under it a lot, so he could have gotten a splinter or something). Also, I'll provide fake branches and clutter as to prevent rubbing and pushing, as well as removing the plastic sticking from the airholes. Hopefully, he recovers and all goes well.

I'm so glad you got him assessed by your vet- we're all pulling for him to improve & recover.

Here's an update on Poltergeist's condition:

The cytology found that he had an abnormal number of macrophages and heterophils, suggesting that he has some type of infection (either fungal or bacterial). If it's a fungal infection, there is no treatment that is plausible, so, I'm putting him on bacterial medication for three weeks that will hopefully work. Unfortunately, it is too much money to figure out what exact type of bacteria/fungus he's infected with and to treat him for anything else. I have my fingers crossed that the medication will work.

Thanks again for helping me out.

Thanks for sharing an update- I hope the treatment works.

FINAL UPDATE: Poltergeist is doing much better! His face is almost fully normal and he has begun eating again. Unfortunately, this ordeal has made him much more timid and far less food aggressive, as he will only eat the rat if I leave it in his enclosure overnight. Nonetheless, I'm glad he's recovering and I will move him into his updated enclosure within a few weeks from now just to be sure he has no issues.
I do want to add that I found an issue with his heating mat, which was slowing or preventing his healing process. The heat mat surface was hot enough, as my heat gun indicated, but it was not, for some reason, putting out enough heat to make Poltergeist as active as he should have been. When I touched him, he seemed a bit cold (even though the mat was at 88 degrees F), so I replaced it with a ceramic heat emitter that heated the surface and the air. Almost immediately he began to be more active and started taking meals a couple days later. The heat mat simply did not produce a hot enough ambient temperature, even though he was formally eating and pooping fine. I'm getting rid of the mat and using the bulb from now on.

Here are pictures of his face almost normal:
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He's looking good! Excellent & happy update. :gj: He'll probably get more "food aggressive" as time goes on & he feels better. When snakes don't eat for a while, they lose enthusiasm until they regain their energy from eating.

I'm pleased to see he's doing better. Thanks for the update.

So glad to see he pulled through and is doing better! It's also good that the heating situation was figured out.