Stuck shed???

Hey there. I noticed some shed falling off of my BP’s spine/back. I took a warm wash cloth to it the same as I do when he gets stuck shed, and more kept coming off. I’m concerned because where he’s normally a light brown, the (small) section that washed off is more of a pink brown now. I’m REALLY concerned. He was perfectly content to be washed, it came off exactly like stuck shed did so I just assumed he’d had some leftover since he’s never been particularly good at “one and done”ing it. The “stuck shed” is still on him and loose, should I just leave it? Wash the rest off? Am I overreacting or did I hurt him?

Hard to say what's going on- we're not seeing him. Do be careful- if the "stuck shed" was actually a scab, maybe from a burn or injury? that would explain why you're seeing pink tissue uncovered. If that's the case, you might dab on some diluted Betadine solution (aka povidone-iodine), diluted to look like weak tea- OR, get some Vetericyn brand ointment (made for reptiles) to apply gently- at least a couple times a day while it's healing. Avoid using ointments made for humans (petroleum jelly based) as they cause issues for a snakes future sheds.

I’m starting to think it was some kind of scabbing, he started flinching when I brushed it with my hand. I feel really bad about it but I’ve ordered the ointment to arrive by tomorrow. He seems to be in good spirits at least, I’m mostly just… shocked he was so content with it being washed, or that it fell off so easily.
Regardless, I really appreciate the help. The ointment is on it’s way and I made a call to his vet to get him checked out this week just in case.

Do double check the temps in the enclosure or any decor in there as well. You can also consider just doing a late night check to see what they're up to as well... Sometimes the midnight shenanigans they get into are surprising.

Anything too sharp or rough should be removed just in case
Obviously any high temps would need to be fixed asap in case this is a burn as well.

This did happen right after he got himself stuck on something, the injury isn’t near the part that got stuck though so maybe he was just rubbing it against something? Either way I’m planning to do a look through tomorrow, maybe something in his hide scratched at him and loosened scales. I have off work the next two days so I can at the very least keep an extra close eye on him as needed

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Originally Posted by PecanPied

Hey there. I noticed some shed falling off of my BP’s spine/back. I took a warm wash cloth to it the same as I do when he gets stuck shed, and more kept coming off. I’m concerned because where he’s normally a light brown, the (small) section that washed off is more of a pink brown now. I’m REALLY concerned. He was perfectly content to be washed, it came off exactly like stuck shed did so I just assumed he’d had some leftover since he’s never been particularly good at “one and done”ing it. The “stuck shed” is still on him and loose, should I just leave it? Wash the rest off? Am I overreacting or did I hurt him?

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A picture of the problem area would be helpful. The more info we have, the better our advice.

For whatever reason I’m still unable to upload photos, I have tried looking at the instructions on how to do so but they don’t match the layout I see at all. Here’s the best I can do
https://flic.kr/p/2pKgoVH

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Originally Posted by PecanPied

For whatever reason I’m still unable to upload photos, I have tried looking at the instructions on how to do so but they don’t match the layout I see at all. Here’s the best I can do
https://flic.kr/p/2pKgoVH

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Can't say that I've seen that before. The scales look damaged, but at least they are still there. Hopefully, one of our more experienced keepers will be able to add.

For what it's worth, I post pics by uploading them to Imgur. From there you can just drag and drop them into your post.

For anyone still listening, the vet said he’ll never be able to shed by himself again because of this. And that he’s anorexic (direct quote) and he’ll never eat again because he’s been on hunger strike. I feel sick. And like I might need a new vet.

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Originally Posted by PecanPied

And like I might need a new vet.

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Agreed.

Did the vet say anything useful? Like whether the area on the snake's back is simply physical damage or there is something else at play?

Could you update us on the feeding situation? It looks like in January the snake was eating fine. Is he taking a little break from eating like males often do?

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Originally Posted by PecanPied

For anyone still listening, the vet said he’ll never be able to shed by himself again because of this. And that he’s anorexic (direct quote) and he’ll never eat again because he’s been on hunger strike. I feel sick. And like I might need a new vet.

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From your photo above, I can't tell what that is, sorry. And I've never heard a vet say such (ridiculous) things before. I can hardly imagine it, honestly- that's so UN-helpful. :(

"Anorexic" is just an observation...not a disease. Snakes that aren't eating well may easily have trouble shedding- until they improve their nutrition & hydration. Most snakes progress beyond hunger strikes- that's just false! Good grief, he (-?) made you feel awful, & that was just plain cruel.

Doesn't sound like this vet keeps or has kept many snakes, much less has had any luck with keeping them. You might want this: https://members.arav.org/search/custom.asp?id=3661

Don't give up...

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Originally Posted by PecanPied

For anyone still listening, the vet said he’ll never be able to shed by himself again because of this. And that he’s anorexic (direct quote) and he’ll never eat again because he’s been on hunger strike. I feel sick. And like I might need a new vet.

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Anorexic? I know he was a little thin (Too thin?). When did he last eat? Got a recent full body shot?

Here's the thing: If your snake really is "anorexic" to where he has refused food for long enough to be thin & losing weight noticeably (as he sorta looks from that one limited photo?), then it's likely time for further action. Especially if your snake is young & doesn't have fat reserves, it's time to do more. Please don't wait "too long".

Think about when a human goes in the hospital for any illness or injury. If they're unable or unwilling to eat, they have an IV line so they stay functional- without that modest nutritional support, their body cannot function, much less heal...it will fail. And they won't feel good enough for their appetite to return, so they end up in a downward spiral- no appetite, no eating, no improvement, bad outcome.

We don't do IVs on snakes- but what you CAN do is either tube-feed (my personal choice as it has worked well for me many times, & I find it's far easier on the snake than the alternative) or "assist-feed" aka "force-feed" ("the alternative" of which I'm not a fan). If you want detailed instructions for tube-feeding, let me know? I'll happily share my technique- you can totally do this.

What happens when you tube feed a snake: (depending on the cause, of course) It's not meant to replace a full meal- it's meant to supplement & stimulate the appetite with easily digestible food. Often after one or more tube-feedings, a snake's appetite may return & they'll eat on their own. Without that energy, they don't feel like eating & just keep going downhill. Many just need a little help to get going again.

A huge bonus with tube-feeding is the added hydration: many anorexic/thin-underfed snakes are also dehydrated, & without adequate hydration, they cannot digest whole prey ingested, & may regurgitate such meals- which makes things worse- sometimes much worse. Tube feeding, done properly & gently, is very well tolerated, so the snake can actually use the nutrients with added hydration.

It's much like when you're recovering from the flu- when you're ready to start eating again, you don't start off with a cheeseburger & fries. ;)

Again-for how to post pictures here- https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...-Post-Pictures

You posted these on 1-5-24...Has he eaten since then? If so, how much???
https://flic.kr/p/2pqKzQN

https://flic.kr/p/2pqCH5y

https://flic.kr/p/2pqK85c

So, I took him to get a second opinion today. Here’s what they said

Injury: it’s probably infected and has led to various infection through his body. How? I don’t know. I’d been using the vetrycin every day for the past week. She said it was surface level damage and that there’s every chance it’ll fix itself in a few sheds, but also that he’s terribly sick. They sent me home with several syringes of antibiotics to administer and said he needs to be quarantined

Feeding: he’s been on hunger strike since March 3rd, I’ve been offering him food every/other week and he’s shown interest but hasn’t eaten. Vet said he’s too skinny (did NOT say he was anorexic and never eating again, like prior vet) and said I should try to feed him mice, chicks, or quails. They had to force feed him formula at the vet today. She said him hunger striking is really really bad but also that it’s completely normal and out of my hands but ALSO something to feel terribly afraid for

TLDR: things are looking bad. I feel horrible and like I’ve led him to die of some completely preventable disease. I don’t know. There’s the update. I don’t know.

I posted another reply but right now the vet wants him to try and eat solids. I’m warming up a medium mouse to see if he’ll eat, she said she specifically doesn’t want him tube fed because “if he doesn’t take it, it’ll rot in his mouth”. He’d been eating perfectly fine every 10 days until March 3rd, when he took the last meal he’s had since being force fed formula this morning at the vet.

I know that he’s too thin and I’m trying to do what I can in order to fix that, but the new vet didn’t have a lot of hope in him eating while he’s sick. He’d gone on for such long hunger strikes before that I just was trying not to be as worried about this one because any time I went to the vet about it prior they brushed it off as being fine if he was thin. I’m sorry if this wasn’t coherent, it’s been a difficult 48 hours.

I'm very glad you took him to see another vet, & it's not our place to dispute your vet, since we're not even seeing your snake in person, & barely seeing him online.
I'm just wondering how your vet decided that he probably has a systemic infection & that he's terribly sick? Did she say what symptoms she based this on?

I agree that a few sheds will likely correct any surface damage- that's the least of the problem anyway.

March 3rd wasn't that long ago for his last meal before he started fasting -unless he was already thin from just not eating enough? But she's right that fasting is bad because it means he has less energy to fight off infections.

If he was just tube-fed at the vet's today, you'd be better off not trying to feed him tonight. I'd wait a day or 2. (-unless your vet fed very little?) You don't want too much food at once to cause a regurge.

I'm glad that your vet did tube feed him a little today, & honestly, it just sounds like she doesn't trust you to do it right? :confusd: > > >

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Originally Posted by PecanPied

...she said she specifically doesn’t want him tube fed because “if he doesn’t take it, it’ll rot in his mouth”....

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FYI, when you properly tube feed a snake, the tube is deep in the throat, just above the stomach- it's not in the mouth, & the food doesn't really end up in the snake's mouth, but even if some did, it wouldn't necessarily rot there- you could easily rinse his mouth out. That's a strange excuse & a "new one on me", lol. :rolleyes: But don't worry about it.

I can easily pm you the tube feeding instructions if you want, & you can print them out & show them to her to see what she says. ;) Not everyone is comfortable tube-feeding a snake, & it's fine just letting her do it- the reason it's best done at home is because sometimes snakes will upchuck it because of handling & the drive home- they need to be kept level or head slightly up, & calm after tube feeding, since liquid comes up easier than solid food does.

And listen, you've been doing your best- try to think positive, okay?

i missed the updates on this one. I'm sorry.

that definitely is a strange injury of some kind and not just shed skin. The snake does also seem someone dehydrated/thin/both from the way the skin fold is showing along the side.

FIND A NEW VET. If that is what they told you, they don't sound qualified to be working with ball pythons.
You should definitely try to get this animal tested for some sort of parasite or bacterial condition.
I would do a soak with just regular water for a few minutes. that will give them a chance to drink. After that you can add some iodine in to help flush the wound. if you are able to find some silver sulfadiazine use that on the sore, just gently wipe it clean before the soaks. If you can't find that, you can use neosporin without painkillers, but be sure to use a very thin layer only on the wound. It can affect the still healthy scales.

Double check your temps and any materials he could injure himself on in the habitat.
They can definitely start eating again after a long hunger strike...but you need to find out why the snake's skin is peeling this way (almost similar to snakes I've seen with severe malnutrition or vitamin issue, but not quite) and get them started on a path to recovery.
You may also need to consider a short intervention with tube feeding.

EDIT: somehow my page also was not properly updated and did not show the last couple of updates today as well. Ugh. I should remember to always hit the F5 key XD;
You still have a small window to make things right. It can be hard. But this new vet sounds like they have a much better head on their shoulders.
I recently lost a snake to a sudden infection like this. They hide it really well. I hope that things for yours gets better.

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Originally Posted by Armiyana

...After that you can add some iodine in to help flush the wound. if you are able to find some silver sulfadiazine use that on the sore, just gently wipe it clean before the soaks. If you can't find that, you can use neosporin without painkillers, but be sure to use a very thin layer only on the wound. It can affect the still healthy scales...

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FYI- PecanPied has been using Vetericyn per post #14 above.

He didn’t take to the food anyway, I’ll be waiting a day or two then trying again with another medium mouse.
I’ll keep using vetrycin on the wound and hope that helps, I was also given injectable antibiotics to administer every other day and they took a culture swab of the scabbing that I’ll get the results for next week. She said he had some discoloration (two small red spots on his stomach) and because the scarring on his back is somewhat raised and that’s what the signs of infection are

i don’t know why she doesn’t want me tube feeding, but for some reason she was really against the idea of trying to do it at all outside of when she did it today. It’s hard because he hasn’t been acting differently at all, he’s still perfectly active and loves to climb and explore and be handled, and my previous snake died to infections (he was kept with my parents, I was young) and the idea of losing Pecan to infection is making me sick.

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Originally Posted by PecanPied

He didn’t take to the food anyway, I’ll be waiting a day or two then trying again with another medium mouse.
I’ll keep using vetrycin on the wound and hope that helps, I was also given injectable antibiotics to administer every other day and they took a culture swab of the scabbing that I’ll get the results for next week. She said he had some discoloration (two small red spots on his stomach) and because the scarring on his back is somewhat raised and that’s what the signs of infection are

i don’t know why she doesn’t want me tube feeding, but for some reason she was really against the idea of trying to do it at all outside of when she did it today. It’s hard because he hasn’t been acting differently at all, he’s still perfectly active and loves to climb and explore and be handled, and my previous snake died to infections (he was kept with my parents, I was young) and the idea of losing Pecan to infection is making me sick.

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Thanks- you hadn't mentioned his ventral red areas, or puffiness of the scabbed area. That's why it's important to see a vet, & in person whenever possible.

If you can inject antibiotics, you should be fine to tube-feed. I'd rather tube-feed a snake any day. ;) Do talk to your vet- I have a feeling that she's had people do it wrong in the past & totally mess up, & she doesn't know where you're getting your information from. There's plenty of misinformation around.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PecanPied

Feeding: he’s been on hunger strike since March 3rd, I’ve been offering him food every/other week and he’s shown interest but hasn’t eaten. Vet said he’s too skinny (did NOT say he was anorexic and never eating again, like prior vet) and said I should try to feed him mice, chicks, or quails. [snip] She said him hunger striking is really really bad but also that it’s completely normal and out of my hands but ALSO something to feel terribly afraid for

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The snake last ate 6 weeks ago, which is not a long time. Also, hunger striking is not "really really bad" and not even "really bad", and in normal situations isn't even "bad". It isn't something to be "terribly afraid for". ("Completely normal" gets it right, though.) Did the vet really use these words?

Sounds like you've got a diagnosis on the infection and you're treating that. That's good, and indicates that things are not completely out of your hands.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

If you can inject antibiotics, you should be fine to tube-feed. I'd rather tube-feed a snake any day. ;)

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I've done both plenty of times, and both are about the same difficulty (=pretty easy) and use roughly the same skills (holding snake securely, delivering the product into the snake). If you decide that you should tube feed your snake, do feel confident about doing so. Exotic animal keepers should expect to learn some kind of odd skills, and this is sometimes one of those skills. :)

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

The snake last ate 6 weeks ago, which is not a long time. Also, hunger striking is not "really really bad" and not even "really bad", and in normal situations isn't even "bad". It isn't something to be "terribly afraid for". ("Completely normal" gets it right, though.) Did the vet really use these words?

Sounds like you've got a diagnosis on the infection and you're treating that. That's good, and indicates that things are not completely out of your hands.



I've done both plenty of times, and both are about the same difficulty (=pretty easy) and use roughly the same skills (holding snake securely, delivering the product into the snake). If you decide that you should tube feed your snake, do feel confident about doing so. Exotic animal keepers should expect to learn some kind of odd skills, and this is sometimes one of those skills. :)

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:gj: It's so easy to overemphasize (or somewhat misinterpret) what a vet says when we're stressed about our pet. But the OP also mentioned a history of fasting with this snake, so combined with the snake being underweight now, perhaps the vet is thinking that a systemic infection has been going for a while? :confusd: Any vet familiar with BPs would know they're known for fasting even in normal health, so it would be nice to know exactly what was said & meant.

Done wrong, both injections or tube-feeding can hurt the snake. I personally think it's harder for one person restraining a snake to safely give an injection (because "sharp needle" & wiggling :snake: ) than to tube-feed, since needles hurt, but done right, tube-feeding does not. But with poor instructions, I can imagine that the vet has likely seen bad results with tube-feeding after too much force or the wrong equipment was used. :(

BTW, my detailed tube-feeding instructions were pm'd to the OP, just in case they want to give it a go. It's always better to have options, but it would also be nice to have a more clear answer from the vet as to why she was so opposed? I've sure pulled a number of snakes through by simply tube-feeding to get their energy & appetite up- it's much easier for a snake to digest, with the added hydration.

I consider tube-feeding to be the most useful technique I've ever been "forced" (by circumstances) to learn. One of my first snakes (from a pet store) was sick, & my local vet didn't see snakes- he just meant well & in trying to help, gave me very minimal instructions on tube-feeding & the right stuff to use. After doing this successfully many times over the years, I have written up the easy but detailed instructions that I wish I'd had that first time, & it's shared upon request. I agree...such skills are just part of successfully keeping exotic pets (snakes).