New Hatchling Passed Away

I made a post a while ago in the husbandry section concerned about my hatchlings' feeding, and I have no idea what happened, but my sweet little male, Fireball, passed away yesterday :(

I have no idea what happened, the only point of concern about him was his refusal to eat. Did he starve? I would be utterly gutted if he did, I didn't think it was time for extreme measures like assist feeding... When I found him, he had no injuries, there was water in his bowl, and he was simply lying there.

Honestly, I'm suspicious of the breeder due to a comment he made about there being "nothing wrong with him" when giving him to me as a freebie, but visually he appeared completely healthy. I see freebies all the time with inverts, should I be suspicious of them with herps in the future? Or with hatchlings so small? And should I be worried for the female I got from him? She's giving me a hard time with food as well, just not as bad.

I'm pretty devastated and worried that there was something I should have done sooner that might have saved him... I keep adult ball pythons and other exotics and can't believe this happened with my first hatchling bps.

Here is my previous post: https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...d-Intervention

A necropsy might reveal something that might be relevant to concerns about the female (or the rest of your collection, unless your QT procedures are 100% airtight).

I'm so sorry for your loss. How long had it been since he fed? Did he ever feed for you? Hatchlings don't have enough body weight to fast as long as adults do, so starvation is a possibility, sorry.
It may have been past time to either assist feed or tube feed*, which is my personal preference. (*I'll be happy to share detailed instructions via PM- just ask.)

I agree with you, that was suspicious- breeders don't usually give away snakes they can sell, so it's quite possible that they already had trouble with him from the start & didn't want to bother. And did you say he was also undersized? Listen, there is also just a "failure to thrive" that can happen, even with snakes that have NO visible abnormalities, size or otherwise. So it's hard to say? It's also possible that the breeder had other losses in the same litter, & considered this one to be more at risk- thus he was a freebie to you.

Could any intervention have saved him? Maybe, maybe not. No way to know. I doubt that a necropsy will show anything, plus they're expensive, must be done soon with the body not frozen, & by an experienced herp vet.

Rest in Peace, Fireball. :snake:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Listen, there is also just a "failure to thrive" that can happen, even with snakes that have NO visible abnormalities, size or otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

No way to know. I doubt that a necropsy will show anything, plus they're expensive, must be done soon with the body not frozen, & by an experienced herp vet.

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Necropsies are a couple hundred dollars in many cases (gross necropsies are sometimes a hundred dollars or less, and then histopathology samples another hundred or somewhat more). Whether that's expensive for a chance of knowing what a keeper brought into their collection is probably different for different keepers. At least some vets send out their necropsies, certainly the histo and other specialized samples, so any vet can line one up, at least in theory. You're right that they don't always give a clear answer, but not getting one is 100% likely to not give a clear answer. What a necropsy can often do is rule out the most scary possibilities, and to some keepers that might be worth a lot.

"Failure to thrive" is a catch-all for situations where we don't know what's causing the difficulty. Something is causing the failure to thrive, though. Unfortunately, the fact that nearly all reptile deaths aren't investigated keeps us in the dark about what's causing the deaths. I'd suspect amoeba first in a non-feeding case where environmental parameters are acceptable, which is pretty easy to rule out with necropsy or in live animals PCR swab or even shotgunning metronidazole, but unfortunately not a lot of keepers do this.

You're right that this might have been something simple, like amoeba, but what I mostly think of when I say "failure to thrive" is some internal abnormalities that just happens with all the selective breeding being done- & this one was apparently on the small side already which raises the odds of something else being off.

I do agree that a necropsy is always a good idea if your budget can handle it, & most especially to contribute to the bigger picture of knowing what went wrong, & protecting any other snakes in the vicinity in case it's something contagious, but in this case I think it's more likely the combination of an at-risk hatchling & perhaps waiting too long for feeding intervention. :( :confusd: For anyone intending to breed & sell snakes, for sure a necropsy should be done. My impression though is that the OP is more of a pet-keeper only, but I shouldn't assume. My bad.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I'm so sorry for your loss. How long had it been since he fed? Did he ever feed for you? Hatchlings don't have enough body weight to fast as long as adults do, so starvation is a possibility, sorry.
It may have been past time to either assist feed or tube feed*, which is my personal preference. (*I'll be happy to share detailed instructions via PM- just ask.)

I agree with you, that was suspicious- breeders don't usually give away snakes they can sell, so it's quite possible that they already had trouble with him from the start & didn't want to bother. And did you say he was also undersized? Listen, there is also just a "failure to thrive" that can happen, even with snakes that have NO visible abnormalities, size or otherwise. So it's hard to say? It's also possible that the breeder had other losses in the same litter, & considered this one to be more at risk- thus he was a freebie to you.

Could any intervention have saved him? Maybe, maybe not. No way to know. I doubt that a necropsy will show anything, plus they're expensive, must be done soon with the body not frozen, & by an experienced herp vet.

Rest in Peace, Fireball. :snake:

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Thank you :( And sorry for the late reply, I didn't get any emails from the replies on this post for some reason and haven't had the mind to check my account until now.

He had not eaten for a month when he passed away, and had only eaten twice for me in the two months I had him. I'm heartbroken to think he could have starved, but I know it's very much a possibility... :( I knew he wasn't doing well and I had to keep watching and trying but at the time I wasn't certain how dire it was...I wish I had called my vet even just a little sooner, but I suppose there's nothing I can do but learn from the experience. I was pretty stressed about how long he was going since he was just a baby but I found info that both agreed with my concerns and didn't. If I have a similar situation down the line I will most definitely ring the vet as soon as it seems out of the ordinary.

That's what I was concerned of. I did think it was a little odd at the time, but chalked it up to the practice being done with inverts and since I was getting a hatchling rack at the time, I had the space and time for him and figured I would go ahead. Me and my roommate did think of necropsy, but I don't have a ton of money. I've preserved him in isopropyl alcohol, so I could see if my vet could preform one when I have more income, if they are still able to be done when preserved that way? I don't want to mess with his body because it helps me having him preserved in a nice way where I can enjoy him and he looks comfortable, but I also want what's best for my other pets if the necropsy could reveal anything.

Sweet little boy is very much missed.

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

A necropsy might reveal something that might be relevant to concerns about the female (or the rest of your collection, unless your QT procedures are 100% airtight).

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That's what I thought, too. If preserving in isopropyl alcohol allows for one to be done this far after him passing, I am certainly thinking on it. I highly doubt my QT procedures are, I kept them paper towels for thirty days to monitor their waste and watch for mites, and washed my hands after doing anything with them or their tubs, but they were in the same room with my other herps. They were in the same rack together too, but it was only them in that one.

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

Necropsies are a couple hundred dollars in many cases (gross necropsies are sometimes a hundred dollars or less, and then histopathology samples another hundred or somewhat more). Whether that's expensive for a chance of knowing what a keeper brought into their collection is probably different for different keepers. At least some vets send out their necropsies, certainly the histo and other specialized samples, so any vet can line one up, at least in theory. You're right that they don't always give a clear answer, but not getting one is 100% likely to not give a clear answer. What a necropsy can often do is rule out the most scary possibilities, and to some keepers that might be worth a lot.

"Failure to thrive" is a catch-all for situations where we don't know what's causing the difficulty. Something is causing the failure to thrive, though. Unfortunately, the fact that nearly all reptile deaths aren't investigated keeps us in the dark about what's causing the deaths. I'd suspect amoeba first in a non-feeding case where environmental parameters are acceptable, which is pretty easy to rule out with necropsy or in live animals PCR swab or even shotgunning metronidazole, but unfortunately not a lot of keepers do this.

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I'm certainly up for being safer than sorry, but I would have to save up for that. I'd likely call my vet for her opinion on whether it's worth it in this situation.

For ruling out amoeba in live animals, do you have any estimate on how much that costs? I would very much be interested in looking into that! I've actually not heard of it before, I would like to know more if you've ever got the time to educate me a little or could even just point me in the right direction of a good article!

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

You're right that this might have been something simple, like amoeba, but what I mostly think of when I say "failure to thrive" is some internal abnormalities that just happens with all the selective breeding being done- & this one was apparently on the small side already which raises the odds of something else being off.

I do agree that a necropsy is always a good idea if your budget can handle it, & most especially to contribute to the bigger picture of knowing what went wrong, & protecting any other snakes in the vicinity in case it's something contagious, but in this case I think it's more likely the combination of an at-risk hatchling & perhaps waiting too long for feeding intervention. :( :confusd: For anyone intending to breed & sell snakes, for sure a necropsy should be done. My impression though is that the OP is more of a pet-keeper only, but I shouldn't assume. My bad.

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I am a pet keeper right now, but I'm interested in breeding in the future, either balls or mexican kings. I've got a lot to learn so it's certainly a ways off, but I had been hoping to pair these two hatchlings once I was ready in however many years. My hope is to make friends with a breeder/s to learn from experienced hands, cuz that's how I learn best.

Sorry I keep repeating myself in my replies, but since I preserved Fireball in isopropyl, is a necropsy still in an option? Because if so I can save up for it and am willing to get one.

Amoeba are easy to treat for safely, & some keepers do it routinely with new acquisitions, or for sure with any that aren't quite right (if they have feeding issues, or weird stool, etc).

The drug is called Flagyl- (aka- metronidazole). You might have heard of it before, it's used for fish ("Fish-Zole" is sold in pet stores OTC for aquarium fish) & for farm animals ("Metro-Zole) likewise sold OTC. You have to be able to calculate the right dose for snakes & administer it (by mouth- that's what the abbreviation "PO" means) & it definitely works, & dosed correctly, it's very safe for snakes. Yes, I've used it. It also tends to stimulate a snake's appetite, which really might have helped. Flagyl is also given to humans for some conditions too, btw. It's not even expensive. Of course, a vet could also supply & administer it too.

https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/...some%20species.



I suppose they could still see any gross physical abnormalities on a snake preserved this way, but it's not ideal. Formalin might be a better option.

Re necropsies: https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/publication/UW382 excerpt:

"Necropsies should be performed soon after the animal is euthanized to avoid autolysis. If the necropsy will not take place for a couple of hours, the reptile should be stored in a refrigerator. Depending on your purpose of study, specimens may also be stored in a freezer for days, weeks, or months before necropsy. Avoid freezing the animal before blood or tissue analysis, however, because it compromises samples (Stahl 1996)."

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Amoeba are easy to treat for safely, & some keepers do it routinely with new acquisitions, or for sure with any that aren't quite right (if they have feeding issues, or weird stool, etc).

The drug is called Flagyl- (aka- metronidazole). You might have heard of it before, it's used for fish ("Fish-Zole" is sold in pet stores OTC for aquarium fish) & for farm animals ("Metro-Zole) likewise sold OTC. You have to be able to calculate the right dose for snakes & administer it (by mouth- that's what the abbreviation "PO" means) & it definitely works, & dosed correctly, it's very safe for snakes. Yes, I've used it. It also tends to stimulate a snake's appetite, which really might have helped. Flagyl is also given to humans for some conditions too, btw. It's not even expensive. Of course, a vet could also supply & administer it too.

https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/...some%20species.

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Oh wow, thank you! Very sad to find something that could have helped him that's so simple, but by golly I will definitely be doing this now, with help from my vet until I'm comfortable doing it myself. Do people usually just give it with their newbies, or is it something they give every now and then even after they're settled in? Also, if I was to bring the little girl for a quick checkup and a dose of that, how much stress do you think that will be putting on her? I was going to wait for a physical until she was over 200 grams and wasn't being picky (though she does eat) but I don't really want to wait now that I've got concerns, especially when they were from the same breeder and in the same rack system.

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Originally Posted by Python_Liqueur

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He had not eaten for a month when he passed away, and had only eaten twice for me in the two months I had him. I'm heartbroken to think he could have starved, but I know it's very much a possibility... :( ...

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It's still impossible for us to say- not knowing how well-fed he was when he came into your possession- see? If he was underfed from the start, then yes, eating only once a month for 2 months, then nothing for another month could very well have been starvation. It also depends on what (how much) you actually got him to eat when he did feed for you- there's a big difference between a rat pinkie & a hopper mouse, for example. What exactly did you feed him? I think you said he was small? Mouse pinkies are not even a snack for BPs, & mouse fuzzies are marginal meals- only for really tiny BPs, & even then I'd feed several. Rat pinkies are bigger than mouse pinkies, but still mostly water. Most BPs (of normal size) are actually started on mouse hoppers (weaned mice, eyes open & very active if alive). Mouse hoppers are about half the size of adult mice.

I know how bad it feels to lose a pet...that's something most of us have experienced, & sometimes it is a result of, or compounded by, our unintentional mistakes. Don't beat yourself up, just learn from any mistakes made.

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Originally Posted by Python_Liqueur

Oh wow, thank you! Very sad to find something that could have helped him that's so simple, but by golly I will definitely be doing this now, with help from my vet until I'm comfortable doing it myself. Do people usually just give it with their newbies, or is it something they give every now and then even after they're settled in? Also, if I was to bring the little girl for a quick checkup and a dose of that, how much stress do you think that will be putting on her? I was going to wait for a physical until she was over 200 grams and wasn't being picky (though she does eat) but I don't really want to wait now that I've got concerns, especially when they were from the same breeder and in the same rack system.

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Yes, hindsight can be frustrating & sad. What we don't know can definitely hurt both our pets & us.

From the linked material-
Metronidazole (Flagyl). Used on intestinal flagellates and for amoebiasis at a dose of 100-200 mg/kg PO, repeated in 2 weeks. A dose of 40-50 mg/kg PO should be used in colubrid snakes since there have been some problems with the higher doses in some species. There are reports that Flagyl works as an appetite stimulant in reptiles. This drug is also good for anaerobic bacterial infections. A recent pharmacokinetics report recommends a dose of 20 mg/kg PO Q 48 hours in yellow rat snakes (Kolmstetter et al. 2001).

So no, it's not something you "do every now & then"- it's repeated after 2 weeks. ^ ^ ^

And if other internal parasites are suspected, Panacur is also very useful. (snakes can have worms) Also from the linked material above:
Fenbendazole (Panacur). A good parasiticide for intestinal nematodes. Can be given orally at a dose of 50-100 mg/kg and repeated in 2 weeks.

https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/he...nd%20livestock.
"Panacur is the brand name of an oral deworming medication with the active ingredient fenbendazole. It is used to treat internal parasites in domestic animals, including dogs, cats, horses, and livestock."

Medical issues for snakes aren't the "fun part" but if you're thinking about keeping more & breeding, it's stuff you need to learn about. ;) And-or have the money to pay a good vet who has a degree & experience with treating all these things.

Ideally, no matter what kind of pets you keep, there's always more expenses than just the day to day cost of keeping them, & it's recommended to always have some savings put aside for medical issues- that's being a responsible owner, & usually means less grief when things go wrong, because animals are living creatures just like us, & sooner or later, health issues happen.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

It's still impossible for us to say- not knowing how well-fed he was when he came into your possession- see? If he was underfed from the start, then yes, eating only once a month for 2 months, then nothing for another month could very well have been starvation. It also depends on what (how much) you actually got him to eat when he did feed for you- there's a big difference between a rat pinkie & a hopper mouse, for example. What exactly did you feed him? I think you said he was small? Mouse pinkies are not even a snack for BPs, & mouse fuzzies are marginal meals- only for really tiny BPs, & even then I'd feed several. Rat pinkies are bigger than mouse pinkies, but still mostly water. Most BPs (of normal size) are actually started on mouse hoppers (weaned mice, eyes open & very active if alive). Mouse hoppers are about half the size of adult mice.

I know how bad it feels to lose a pet...that's something most of us have experienced, & sometimes it is a result of, or compounded by, our unintentional mistakes. Don't beat yourself up, just learn from any mistakes made.

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I got him on January 28th, and he passed on April 11th. He was only 60 grams, and the breeder said he was on hopper mice, though said he didn't know when he ate last because his wife does that... He was absolutely terrified of hoppers, and on February 24th I tried a fuzzy mouse, which he finally ate. I managed to get him to eat another on March 2nd, and then he continued to refuse food again until he passed :( Mouse fuzzies were the only thing I had success in, but that's just can't be enough food... I will certainly be doing things differently if I have another hatchling struggling this much.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Yes, hindsight can be frustrating & sad. What we don't know can definitely hurt both our pets & us.

From the linked material-
Metronidazole (Flagyl). Used on intestinal flagellates and for amoebiasis at a dose of 100-200 mg/kg PO, repeated in 2 weeks. A dose of 40-50 mg/kg PO should be used in colubrid snakes since there have been some problems with the higher doses in some species. There are reports that Flagyl works as an appetite stimulant in reptiles. This drug is also good for anaerobic bacterial infections. A recent pharmacokinetics report recommends a dose of 20 mg/kg PO Q 48 hours in yellow rat snakes (Kolmstetter et al. 2001).

So no, it's not something you "do every now & then"- it's repeated after 2 weeks. ^ ^ ^

And if other internal parasites are suspected, Panacur is also very useful. (snakes can have worms) Also from the linked material above:
Fenbendazole (Panacur). A good parasiticide for intestinal nematodes. Can be given orally at a dose of 50-100 mg/kg and repeated in 2 weeks.

https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/he...nd%20livestock.
"Panacur is the brand name of an oral deworming medication with the active ingredient fenbendazole. It is used to treat internal parasites in domestic animals, including dogs, cats, horses, and livestock."

Medical issues for snakes aren't the "fun part" but if you're thinking about keeping more & breeding, it's stuff you need to learn about. ;) And-or have the money to pay a good vet who has a degree & experience with treating all these things.

Ideally, no matter what kind of pets you keep, there's always more expenses than just the day to day cost of keeping them, & it's recommended to always have some savings put aside for medical issues- that's being a responsible owner, & usually means less grief when things go wrong, because animals are living creatures just like us, & sooner or later, health issues happen.

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Thank you so much. And yeah, medical issues are not fun, but I do enjoy learning about them, so I'm sure I can manage!

I've got a couple hundred squared away for things, and I'm working on getting a job now after I left my other because of management. Once I've got one you can be sure I'm keeping stuff aside!

I've been planning to get this book (https://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Ball...1938850459/ref) because I've seen it highly recommended for learning more advanced care and things you need to know before making any breeding plans. Do you have any opinions on it or other things to read that aren't just your basic care guide?

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Originally Posted by Python_Liqueur

Thank you so much. And yeah, medical issues are not fun, but I do enjoy learning about them, so I'm sure I can manage!

I've got a couple hundred squared away for things, and I'm working on getting a job now after I left my other because of management. Once I've got one you can be sure I'm keeping stuff aside!

I've been planning to get this book (https://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Ball...1938850459/ref) because I've seen it highly recommended for learning more advanced care and things you need to know before making any breeding plans. Do you have any opinions on it or other things to read that aren't just your basic care guide?

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A couple hundred may sound like a lot, but it doesn't go very far. When breeding snakes, there's no guarantee that you'll break even, much less make money. Many people just lose money. Especially in BPs these days- the market is very saturated, & making more snakes that you love but can't sell & get stuck keeping or giving them away is not a good business model. It's also sad for the snakes, if you care about them, because cheap or free snakes are too often not valued for long by their new owner. Because hey, it wasn't a big investment, so? There's exceptions but that's just "human nature".

As far as I know, that's a good read, but I haven't read it- I've kept some BPs in the past, but they're not my favorite snakes at all- just not my focus. I'd recommend reading more than one of the recent snake books actually. You might not have to buy them all- see if your library can get them for you. It can't hurt to ask. Why not start a thread asking for current recommended reading? (I'm just the wrong one to ask for BP-books.)

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Originally Posted by Python_Liqueur

... and the breeder said he was on hopper mice, though said he didn't know when he ate last because his wife does that....

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That's a really lame answer & I'd stay away from any "breeders" that give answers like that. IF that was true, a good breeder -one that cared & was professional- would have checked with his wife & given you an answer. My guess is that this snake wasn't eating much or at all, & he knew that but avoided admitting it so you'd take the snake off his hands. Just saying.

And your experience with the snake showing fear of a hopper supports my guess. Probably never saw one before. There's a small chance that the snake was just stressed from being in a new home, & that's why he wasn't eating, but I would bet otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Python_Liqueur

For ruling out amoeba in live animals, do you have any estimate on how much that costs? I would very much be interested in looking into that! I've actually not heard of it before, I would like to know more if you've ever got the time to educate me a little or could even just point me in the right direction of a good article!

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The cheapest way would be to send a swab out to RAL (https://www.vetdna.com/). That test is $20 (plus sampling supplies).

A vet could diagnose with a fecal sample (not always available in non-feeding animals, though). A visit and fecal at my vet is a little over $100.

On the Metronidazole discussion: I have used it to treat snakes (and a turtle) that aren't feeding, and that sometimes does the trick (which implies that the non-feeding was caused by amoeba in those cases). I personally would not shotgun it in an animal with no symptoms. It is also pretty far down the list of issues I consider first in a non-feeding animal -- enclosure setup/parameters; prey item undesirability; stomatitis/"mouthrot", at least)

One problem with treating failure to feed with shotgun meds is that it can be a little slower than a vet check, and only rules out one issue among many. A vet can rule out a whole handful of things and often get the right treatment going on the day of the visit.

On broader issues: one way that I've found pretty reliable to avoid issues like this one is to be incredibly selective about who you'll buy from and what you buy. Taking a free animal is something I would not do (I assume a seller knows what their product is worth...), nor "rescues" or deals too good to pass up.

The ball python market is absolutely saturated to the gills; it is 100% a buyer's market. There are many hundreds of breeders to choose from, and tens of thousands of snakes. A buyer can take the time to find an absolutely solid snake from a very high quality breeder that hopefully pathogen tests their stock and still pay a fair price.

On QT: You might consider improving your procedures since you have a few snakes and some intent to get a breeding collection going. Amoeba probably won't take a collection out, but there are viruses that will and it is worth protecting against them.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

A couple hundred may sound like a lot, but it doesn't go very far. When breeding snakes, there's no guarantee that you'll break even, much less make money. Many people just lose money. Especially in BPs these days- the market is very saturated, & making more snakes that you love but can't sell & get stuck keeping or giving them away is not a good business model. It's also sad for the snakes, if you care about them, because cheap or free snakes are too often not valued for long by their new owner. Because hey, it wasn't a big investment, so? There's exceptions but that's just "human nature".

As far as I know, that's a good read, but I haven't read it- I've kept some BPs in the past, but they're not my favorite snakes at all- just not my focus. I'd recommend reading more than one of the recent snake books actually. You might not have to buy them all- see if your library can get them for you. It can't hurt to ask. Why not start a thread asking for current recommended reading? (I'm just the wrong one to ask for BP-books.)

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Agreed, one of my big goals in getting a new job is to save up a decent amount of "surprise incident" funds... And yeah, I don't want to end up breeding up a bunch of babies that can't get good forever homes. Perhaps it would be better to look into other species, I'm interest in mexican kings as well and I'm not sure how the market for them is, but I know I don't see hoards of them everywhere. Either way though, won't be anytime soon! Lot's of research to do.

And oh man I haven't been to the library is forever that's a great point! I feel a little bad, I loved going to the library as a kid.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

That's a really lame answer & I'd stay away from any "breeders" that give answers like that. IF that was true, a good breeder -one that cared & was professional- would have checked with his wife & given you an answer. My guess is that this snake wasn't eating much or at all, & he knew that but avoided admitting it so you'd take the snake off his hands. Just saying.

And your experience with the snake showing fear of a hopper supports my guess. Probably never saw one before. There's a small chance that the snake was just stressed from being in a new home, & that's why he wasn't eating, but I would bet otherwise.

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Yeah...I'm going to be much more careful and selective in the future. Lesson learned the hard way :(

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

The cheapest way would be to send a swab out to RAL (https://www.vetdna.com/). That test is $20 (plus sampling supplies).

A vet could diagnose with a fecal sample (not always available in non-feeding animals, though). A visit and fecal at my vet is a little over $100.

On the Metronidazole discussion: I have used it to treat snakes (and a turtle) that aren't feeding, and that sometimes does the trick (which implies that the non-feeding was caused by amoeba in those cases). I personally would not shotgun it in an animal with no symptoms. It is also pretty far down the list of issues I consider first in a non-feeding animal -- enclosure setup/parameters; prey item undesirability; stomatitis/"mouthrot", at least)

One problem with treating failure to feed with shotgun meds is that it can be a little slower than a vet check, and only rules out one issue among many. A vet can rule out a whole handful of things and often get the right treatment going on the day of the visit.

On broader issues: one way that I've found pretty reliable to avoid issues like this one is to be incredibly selective about who you'll buy from and what you buy. Taking a free animal is something I would not do (I assume a seller knows what their product is worth...), nor "rescues" or deals too good to pass up.

The ball python market is absolutely saturated to the gills; it is 100% a buyer's market. There are many hundreds of breeders to choose from, and tens of thousands of snakes. A buyer can take the time to find an absolutely solid snake from a very high quality breeder that hopefully pathogen tests their stock and still pay a fair price.

On QT: You might consider improving your procedures since you have a few snakes and some intent to get a breeding collection going. Amoeba probably won't take a collection out, but there are viruses that will and it is worth protecting against them.

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Okay! I would talk to my vet before giving any meds, to figure out if whatever situation is at hand calls for it. Also the girl has been pooping, hopefully she'll have another sometime soon and I can bring some in!

I think I was much too trusting, I tend to do that in general and was excited to make an acquaintance within the hobby. I will have to be careful to look further than just if their snakes *appear* healthy moving forward. I wish my little boy didn't have to be the victim of that lesson.

And yeah, I'm going to look into ways to better my quarantining for sure.

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Originally Posted by Python_Liqueur

... I will certainly be doing things differently if I have another hatchling struggling this much.

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Or better yet, just get an adult. They're a lot less fragile.

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Originally Posted by Homebody

Or better yet, just get an adult. They're a lot less fragile.

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Very true.