Ball python enclosure

Hello! It's been awhile since I last posted, Poppy is doing great, and I'm very happy with her bioactive enclosure! Plants, Clean up crew, and microfauna are doing amazing.
I posted my enclosure on another website and some people said my enclosure will be too small when she's a fully grown adult.

I was hoping this enclosure would be big enough for her entire life. Her enclosure is 48x24x14.

What size enclosure would you guys recommend I upgrade to when she's fully grown? Thank you so much. You guys have been so helpful. :)

I think the size is fine, assuming your BP doesn't grow to be really large (they grow their whole life, so much depends on how long she actually lives). But honestly, I don't care for enclosures that are only 14" high, but that's up to you. While BPs don't use much of the height, that's still awkward to reach into (unless it's top-opening?) & not much height after you add substrate & hides, especially if there is a heat source overheat that you don't want the snake to be too close to. Can't comment much without seeing what you actually have.

That will be plenty large enough of an enclosure to house her for life.

By regular traditional enclosure standards, that's an acceptable size for anything other than a truly big BP (6 feet); those recommendations tend to be L x W of the cage = length of the snake.

By "bioactive" standards and reasonable practices, not so much. Even on a naturalistic enclosure mindset that could be a little small. That could be part of the difference in recommendations.

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

By regular traditional enclosure standards, that's an acceptable size for anything other than a truly big BP (6 feet); those recommendations tend to be L x W of the cage = length of the snake.

By "bioactive" standards and reasonable practices, not so much. Even on a naturalistic enclosure mindset that could be a little small. That could be part of the difference in recommendations.

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I'm glad you said that...I have no experience with bioactive enclosures, but I was thinking they might need more room.

I'll post a picture of the enclosure when I get home.
I agree 14 inches is pretty short especially with the 4~ inches of substrate and 2~ inch RHP. Thank you guys! do you think a 6x2x2 would be better?

She has 2 hides and a couple of bushy areas where she hangs out in the middle of the enclosure.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...ad2b576bab.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...1144a21a6a.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...4513c98971.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...651be4b823.jpg

I definitely agree with Malum. It's a great size...if it wasn't bioactive.

The downside with BPs is they can produce such a large amount of waste and urine as adults that they will overwhelm the system you currently have.
I think the larger size can work as long as you're on top of scooping a majority of poop when it happens and overturning some of the soil regularly.
Or the larger size can just simply be a nice naturalistic setup without the bioactive to worry about.

Oh yeah, Either way I'm going to be scooping her poop and urates. I just enjoy bioactive set-ups. The clean up crew I got aren't big enough for her waste. :D

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Originally Posted by Ruby

...I agree 14 inches is pretty short especially with the 4~ inches of substrate and 2~ inch RHP. Thank you guys! do you think a 6x2x2 would be better?

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Maybe? It might depend on where you live- how cold it is & how hard it is to keep enclosure warm enough, as that's almost twice the height- all that air will be hard to heat. I think if you need & want the extra work of 6' x 2', that 18" high would be better, if available, & if you can keep the temps. in the right range.

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Originally Posted by Ruby

Oh yeah, Either way I'm going to be scooping her poop and urates. I just enjoy bioactive set-ups. The clean up crew I got aren't big enough for her waste. :D

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One issue is that even with scooping, a substrate swap will be necessary eventually in an undersized "bioactive" due to buildup of organics from waste, minerals from water (an issue even if RO water is used), and possibly helminth and other parasites/pathogens. Even in a not-undersized system, much of the work of what I'd call a real bioactive enclosure (one that can fully process the waste of the resident animals for decades) is done by water that flows through the substrate and then removed from the system, much like in natural ecosystems (rivers carry away organics).

Tossing out isopods is environmentally problematic (they're invasive), so the discarding of such substrate is best avoided as long as possible. It is in fact illegal to release isopods into the wild in the US (without a permit, which won't be issued for this purpose), so no composting/reuse of the used substrate is possible (without pre-sterilizing anyway, which isn't something I'd enjoy doing).

Since the microfauna aren't doing any real work, it can be argued that using them is a complication with no benefit, and so a naturalistic (natural materials and live plants) enclosure has more to be said for it than does a "bioactive" one.

Your enclosure is visually very attractive, though it illustrates how anything but a traditional more utilitarian setup needs to be much larger. Much of the area in the enclosure isn't exactly usable by the snake. As a bit of an aside, I'd reconsider the sharp rocks to avoid any possible injuries (whether acute or from repeated contact).

Just my two cents.

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

....
Tossing out isopods is environmentally problematic (they're invasive), so the discarding of such substrate is best avoided as long as possible. It is in fact illegal to release isopods into the wild in the US (without a permit, which won't be issued for this purpose), so no composting/reuse of the used substrate is possible (without pre-sterilizing anyway, which isn't something I'd enjoy doing)....

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Funny (not!) how all the ads & people advocating bio-active enclosures never mention this issue. :( This seems like a vastly underrated problem that's "waiting to happen" (or already has).

I think if these things can't be properly & easily disposed of, they shouldn't allow them to be sold, because so many aren't even aware of this issue, or won't care.

Yeah... I found out that rubber duckies are illegal in California, hahah. So that was where I realized my bioactive plans may be a no go. I did try some springtails for a bit when I was having some issues with some coco coir in my racks a few times. It helped for the issue at the time but wasn't anything stable.

Weirdly...I have seen someone use bioactive in a large rat cage before, but she has an active tub of substrate and cleanup crew she runs separately so she can change the rats out every couple of months as well.

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

One issue is that even with scooping, a substrate swap will be necessary eventually in an undersized "bioactive" due to buildup of organics from waste, minerals from water (an issue even if RO water is used), and possibly helminth and other parasites/pathogens. Even in a not-undersized system, much of the work of what I'd call a real bioactive enclosure (one that can fully process the waste of the resident animals for decades) is done by water that flows through the substrate and then removed from the system, much like in natural ecosystems (rivers carry away organics).

Tossing out isopods is environmentally problematic (they're invasive), so the discarding of such substrate is best avoided as long as possible. It is in fact illegal to release isopods into the wild in the US (without a permit, which won't be issued for this purpose), so no composting/reuse of the used substrate is possible (without pre-sterilizing anyway, which isn't something I'd enjoy doing).

Since the microfauna aren't doing any real work, it can be argued that using them is a complication with no benefit, and so a naturalistic (natural materials and live plants) enclosure has more to be said for it than does a "bioactive" one.

Your enclosure is visually very attractive, though it illustrates how anything but a traditional more utilitarian setup needs to be much larger. Much of the area in the enclosure isn't exactly usable by the snake. As a bit of an aside, I'd reconsider the sharp rocks to avoid any possible injuries (whether acute or from repeated contact).

Just my two cents.

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Wow, Thank you so much. I thought I did a decent amount of research on bioactive enclosures but NONE of my sources said anything like this. Thank you for this information!

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Maybe? It might depend on where you live- how cold it is & how hard it is to keep enclosure warm enough, as that's almost twice the height- all that air will be hard to heat. I think if you need & want the extra work of 6' x 2', that 18" high would be better, if available, & if you can keep the temps. in the right range.

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I struggle to maintain heat in the colder months, So I assume I'll have to find someone to make a custom 72x24x18 pvc enclosure. Thank you guys so much! :D
Btw, The rocks may look a little sharp but I've sanded them and dulled the corners (And parts of the driftwood as well ;))

I'll keep this enclosure until she grows out of it, Then I'll upgrade and maybe try something other than bioactive. Malum Argenteum made some very good points.


Again, Thank you guys so much!! ❤️

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Originally Posted by Ruby

Wow, Thank you so much. I thought I did a decent amount of research on bioactive enclosures but NONE of my sources said anything like this. Thank you for this information!

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Yeah, the "bioactive" craze is based less on facts than I'd like a husbandry methodology to be. One real problem is that it is a housing method that is supposedly appropriate for virtually every species of reptile and amphibian. That sort of lowest common denominator thinking is pretty much the opposite of good care (which I think needs to be based on the species, and also the specifics of a keeper's situation including their experience level).

Another problem is that the "bioactive" bandwagon is very market-driven; the folks selling the materials are making up the rules. 'Bio-Activity and the Theory of Wild Re-Creation', the book that literally introduced the term 'bioactive' in this context was written by the "Head of Innovation" at a herp supplies company. One way to sell more stuff is to create a market, and he did that phenomenally well. That company is also responsible for a poorly thought out and inaccurately marketed line of supplements.

Of the 11 references on the Wikipedia page for 'bioactive terrarium', seven link to vendors' sales sites (and four of those seven are specifically from dart frog sites, so not very relevant to any other taxa). Perhaps worth mentioning is that since I last checked the Wikipedia page, at least three references have been changed, and at that time only 6 of 11 were from vendors' sites (oddly, all the reference links to the Biodude's copy are gone).

The pages on "bioactive" at the Reptifiles website (which I am not at all recommending) are written by the owner of The Biodude, a seller of "bioactive" kits and material.

Something that some groups still disagree with and argue against is giving ball pythons climbing space, even though they have some-what recently been discovered as semi arboreal with mostly the males spending the most time in trees. The new minimum size for a ball python enclosure is a 4x2x2, and it is recommended to give them an enclosure that will be as long as them on at least one side. Keeping your ball python in a setup that is cramped and doesn't let them use natural exploring skills can be bad for them physically as it can cause more fat buildup instead of muscle, and they need the enrichment for brain health. Sadly this information isn't heard as often seeing as that this research is only being newly spread and enforced and most keepers still go by old "standard" care which is now seen as outdated.
Your enclosure looks beautiful by the way!

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Originally Posted by BeansTheDerp

they have some-what recently been discovered as semi arboreal with mostly the males spending the most time in trees.

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Well, at least as long ago as 26 years this observation was published. ;)
Sexual size dimorphism and natural history traits are correlated with intersexual dietary divergence in royal pythons (python regius) from the rainforests of southeastern Nigeria

This research found arboreality only in royal pythons less than 1 meter in length. I'd be curious to see more up to date research if you have citations.

Oh yes thank you! Better wording would have been that it has been recently pushed more in reptile keeping.
I will for sure be finding those articles for you, a lot of them you can find yourself and you can find even more information if you check out reptiles and research. He has a channel on youtube, has a "Bachelor's degree in applied animal sciences (formally animal management)" (Copied and pasted from his own words). He does a lot of videos updating and correcting old reptile keeping and discusses the articles and new information found. He even has posts/articles(?) on his website: https://reptilesandresearch.org/
Animals at home is also a good one for info. Reptifiles (website) has listed information but as far as listed sources I do not know.

Here are a few specific things I recommend checking out.

https://reptilesandresearch.org/rept...nimal-welfare/ - animal/reptile welfare paper
https://reptilesandresearch.org/folk...dryinreptiles/ - reptile husbandry
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qh0Kirzn6A - one of the biggest ball python enclosures in a zoo(?) which is pretty amazing to see
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVPw_OxgbHE&t=1s - unlocking your ball pythons potential with Lori Torrini
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9DCqKD-U4o - Myths about reptile behavior with Lori Torrini
https://journal.iaabcfoundation.org/...nt-for-snakes/ - enrichment for snakes article
https://journal.iaabcfoundation.org/...uroenrichment/ - potential neural consequences for snakes under captive management article

edit: adding one more which is more on behavior than husbandry.

https://reptilesandresearch.org/rept...aviourwelfare/ - stereotypes in reptile behavior

Those are interesting links, thanks. Nothing on the R&R site regarding climbing, and only one hit for 'arboreal' (in a corn snake context). Some of the content there is pretty basic, and is rehashed from online hobby discussions. One example:

"Furthermore, if a ball python and a Burmese python are members of the same genus and are similar enough to breed and produce viable hybrids, then it could be argued that it is probable they are also similar enough that they can both cutaneous synthesis vitamin D through UV. " (from here: https://reptilesandresearch.org/do-snakes-need-uvb/)

This, like many simplified discussions of the topic, ignores (or is unaware of) the relevance of evolutionarily conserved genes. Though it does involve handwaving in that direction (the viable hybrid mention), whether an animal has the genetic and even physiological capacity for something doesn't entail that it is adaptive either in the wild environment or (even more so) the captive environment.

That UVB page also ignores the practical risks of providing UVB in captivity by novice keepers.

I've listened to a few AAH podcasts, and they discussed some thought provoking topics. I should check that one out more.

I've long been skeptical of Reptifiles, since it is a for profit site with lots of content written by someone with no first hand experience with the species being advised on.

None of this is to dismiss or criticize your posting of the links, exactly, but just to continue the discussion in a way that I hope readers find useful. :)

I agree with you on the reptifiles thing that they don't have all the experience, but my viewpoint is that because the owner converses with others such as AAH that she gets the information from those with it. I was mainly trying to link you reading material, but most of the mentions of being semi arboreal/climbing reptiles are in Liam's videos (R&R). On his youtube page he does have many playlist for a lot of different topics, including one fully dedicated to ball pythons which I recommend checking out. Also some of those papers on his website are written by a different person not him, and I hadn't noticed any questionable things.

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Originally Posted by BeansTheDerp

I agree with you on the reptifiles thing that they don't have all the experience, but my viewpoint is that because the owner converses with others such as AAH that she gets the information from those with it.

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Understood.

But: when I tell you something, what I say is filtered -- by my (probably not 100% correct) perception of you, by how much time I have to flesh things out, by the specific point I'm trying to make in a specific context (and if I'm running an Amazon Affiliate site, I have a strong motivation to filter in some hardware recommendations that may or may not be necessary). And you don't know what or why I've filtered, so you can't reverse engineer what I've said.

Then when you tell that stuff to the next person, that same filtering goes on, and additionally you probably didn't understand everything 100% (maybe because I didn't explain it clearly; an example is the 'recently been discovered' exchange you and I had up there), so info is lost. Then also you speculate (often reasonably) to fill in some gaps. It is the telephone game, basically; on a large scale it is an echo chamber. That's why I think care sheets (etc) should be written by people with extensive specific experience that is at least largely informed by empirical evidence when possible, and by no one else.

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

Understood.

But: when I tell you something, what I say is filtered -- by my (probably not 100% correct) perception of you, by how much time I have to flesh things out, by the specific point I'm trying to make in a specific context (and if I'm running an Amazon Affiliate site, I have a strong motivation to filter in some hardware recommendations that may or may not be necessary). And you don't know what or why I've filtered, so you can't reverse engineer what I've said.

Then when you tell that stuff to the next person, that same filtering goes on, and additionally you probably didn't understand everything 100% (maybe because I didn't explain it clearly; an example is the 'recently been discovered' exchange you and I had up there), so info is lost. Then also you speculate (often reasonably) to fill in some gaps. It is the telephone game, basically; on a large scale it is an echo chamber. That's why I think care sheets (etc) should be written by people with extensive specific experience that is at least largely informed by empirical evidence when possible, and by no one else.

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Once again I agree, I have trouble getting my points across and using the right words/phrases because I'm not very good at talking to people because of some mental things... Which is why I usually direct people towards my source or a channel/person than knows more or will be able to give more/better info with better wording because of having more experience or association with people who have more experience. I also fear giving people the wrong information or delivering it incorrectly which is another reason for that, plus it gives the opportunity for people to leave thoughts on said sources and it becomes a learning moment.
The telephone game is one of many reasons why I always find multiple sources for things or at least try to, and why when giving people information about things I try to give multiple sources.

I think everyone misses the proper wording and could do a better job at getting points across from time to time. You seem to do a fine job conversing here. :)

Thank you that means a lot, I was trying my absolute hardest and rereading every message I was about to send like 50 times before sending it which probably helped! :rolleyes:
This was a very fun and informative conversation, thank you for being so nice to speak with and in general.