URGENT Blood Python Very Sick

I'm kind of still in shock right now so I hope I explain this well enough.

I had recently posted a thread on my new blood python (who has mites) urinating every other day which concerned me.

About an hour ago we saw she peed again and went to go clean her enclosure. We opened the lid and found her with her mouth open.

The past hour she's been in a cycle of being completely lethargic, not able to hold her head up, muscles loose, to suddenly thrashing around with her mouth wide open, all her muscles twitching, while straining her vent immensely, then repeat. She was only able to get a little bit of brown liquid out. When I feel her I can feel a couple tiny hard things (probably urates) and a good amount of liquid in her butt in the path to the vent. She also looked like she was having a hard time breathing, hissing loudly and may have had some fluid near her nose, I couldn't tell. I have a video if anyone requires it but it's quite distressing.

We are in the Midwest, in the middle of a snow storm and all the emergency vets are closed. It's -20 outside and even with the heating on, it's not easy to keep the room warm. So we have just decided to clean her enclosure, make her comfortable in there and leave her alone. I do not expect her to be with us in the morning.

My only ideas are:

1. Someone suggested she may have drank soapy water during her soaks. Would that cause something like this?

2. Could she have been constipated or eggbound? She's a retired breeder but hasn't had a clutch for several years.

3. Internal parasite? She already had mites when we got her, could an internal parasite be causing her system to flush out as much as it was?

If there's the off chance that she's here in the morning, she will be going to an emergency vet, though I don't know they would even take reptiles.

Just looking for any theories so that when this catches up with me tomorrow, I might be able to rationalize it easier.

Thanks for the help y'all.

Sad & sorry to hear about your snake- & your morning-

1. I think that was me...if a snake drinks soapy water, they'll have gastrointestinal upset, the level of which depends on the amount & type of soap ingested. For future reference, when soaking a snake with mites, you only need a drop or two of mild soap (like Ivory) in the water-the water should not be sudsy- you do not need bubbles. Even a tiny amount of soap mixed in the water will be enough to break the surface tension of the water so the mites cannot swim or float- instead, they sink & drown. It's important to make sure a snake doesn't ingest any soapy water...however, this sounds like way more than a soapy water ingestion problem, though I could be wrong.

2. & 3. Maybe- some of what you're describing implies there's a possible blockage (urate stones or tumor or ?), but without seeing the snake & many things are possible here- not the least of which this is a mature snake that came from "not the best source" or she wouldn't have mites, & mites are known or thought to spread diseases among snakes.

You didn't say how long you've had her but that she's a recent acquisition? I think you said something about weeks? My point is that she's had mites for a while (they cause dehydration & circulatory collapse-organ failure etc.), & then she has been passing excessive amounts of fluids, which causes dehydration & circulatory collapse. Drinking soapy water could have compounded that- but which came first??? The soapy water soaks, or the excessive excretion of "water"? Poor snake...and no, it doesn't look good. I hope we're both wrong about that.

I wouldn't be getting snakes from the same place ever again if that was me. :( And I hope your quarantine has been excellent.

If I think of anything else, I'll get back to you. I'm not normally up yet, but my dogs needed out.

Linking your previous thread here just for the convenience of readers who want to refer to it:

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...ythons-urinate

I don't know what responses drinking soapy water would cause, but I would expect them to be entirely digestive issues. I've only had one eggbound snake, and it did not present at all like what you're describing. I don't think that internal parasites would cause such a distinct shift in behavior and appearance.

My suspicion would be a toxic response to the insecticide. Among the symptoms in human toxicity are respiratory symptoms, coordination issues, tremors and convusions (source). Symptoms in snakes are muscle tremors, disorientation and paralysis (source).

Even after a cage cleaning, permethrin is stable on surfaces, so the repeated applications may have simply built up. Soap and water don't remove it well; it is used on human clothing for insecticidal purposes and lasts through a handful of machine washings. It might be that the repeat applications weren't fully dried when the snake was returned to its cage (I would expect there was a bit of a logistical issue with having to have the snake out of its enclosure during the cleaning process and things might have been a little rushed, which is understandable). You say "opened the lid" which suggests a top opening enclosure; it may be that limited ventilation plays some sort of role as well.

Given the repeated soaks and excessive urination, it may be that the snake simply took on way too much water and is hyponatremic. Soap might break down the skin's resistance to water (which is probably pretty low in short tailed pythons to start with -- I would expect they have a high rate of evaporative water loss). This is just speculation, though, and a vet would have a good idea as to whether overhydration is a factor based on symptoms.

I'd forgotten about the use of "PAM" (not quite awake yet, ha)- you're probably right, Malum. More than one snake-owner has messed up when using that stuff. Personally, I've never used it.

IF PAM is the culprit, do your best to help the snake flush it out of their body, get vet help if & when you can, & hope for the best. Rest & supportive care.

If you can't get on the road today or the vet is closed due to bad weather, try for a phone consultation- ask what you should do if it's PAM toxicity. Better the vet sees the snake in person though, for more accurate diagnosis.

If you need a herp vet: https://members.arav.org/search/custom.asp?id=3661

You mentioned going to the emergency vet- I'd call first to see if they are experienced with snakes.

(As far as internal parasites or egg-binding, they could always be contributing factors in a snake that came with mites, & some internal parasites don't inhabit the GI tract- I was actually thinking about snakes that get lungworms, which could cause thrashing around, etc.)

I hope she makes it...

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Personally, I've never used it.

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I've used it only once for snake mites (on a blood python, incidentally), and use it a lot around the farm -- insect control on livestock quarters (and directly on livestock when it is really needed -- fly strike is nasty), treating clothing for ticks, spraying the siding of the house against wasps and carpenter bees. Since I use a fair amount of it, I've done some research into how to use it safely, and making sure it is dry on a surface is really important, since then it stays there and works its magic. Based on what I read in journal articles, it is very safe and effective for snake use when used judiciously.

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

I've used it only once for snake mites (on a blood python, incidentally), and use it a lot around the farm -- insect control on livestock quarters (and directly on livestock when it is really needed -- fly strike is nasty), treating clothing for ticks, spraying the siding of the house against wasps and carpenter bees. Since I use a fair amount of it, I've done some research into how to use it safely, and making sure it is dry on a surface is really important, since then it stays there and works its magic. Based on what I read in journal articles, it is very safe and effective for snake use when used judiciously.

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BTW, I know that many have used PAM safely on snakes- & that it's the ones with bad outcomes for whatever reason that we tend to hear about here & in other forums.

It wasn't even an option back when I had (all of) 2 snakes that came with mites, & since then, I've managed to avoid them totally. What do you think of using NEXGARD instead, as was recently reported to be effective, safe & easier?

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...s-looking-good


https://parasitesandvectors.biomedce...71-022-05611-1

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

What do you think of using NEXGARD instead, as was recently reported to be effective, safe & easier?

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...s-looking-good


https://parasitesandvectors.biomedce...71-022-05611-1

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Effective and safe are what we're looking for. NEXGARD has the potential for some pretty serious adverse affects in dogs, though. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/....1002/vms3.285 .

The linked study on snakes is admittedly promising, but doesn't have the sample size needed to show side effects especially if such effects are taxon-specific (as in, for example, the sensitivity of Drymarchon and at least some Lampropeltis to metronidazole).

NEXGARD isn't exactly easier. It requires a vet rx, so there's time and hassle and expense that isn't involved in treating with PAM (or generic equivalent). It also wouldn't be very practical in a situation where mites may or may not have taken hold in a collection -- so, is most appropriate either for those folks who only have one snake, or who have a rigorous QT procedure in place and know that the mites are limited to one animal (though these latter type of keepers probably have PAM on hand and know how to use it).

Having a vet helping with medical treatments is a very good thing in a lot of cases, though, so that's a plus. The vast amount of uncertainty of a lot of keepers dealing with mites for the first time is problematic, and funneling these sorts of cases to a vet would be best for the animal and probably the keeper too.

Personally I feel more comfortable with a environmental treatment over a systemic if each are effective. Used properly, a snake really doesn't get exposed to the active ingredient in permethrin sprays. But it seems it would be a lot harder to misuse a one-dose oral miticide. Seems there are pros and cons to each.

55fingers, I really hope things are looking up for you and your snake. Please keep us posted on how she's doing!

Thank you everyone for your kind words and advice. She unfortunately was gone by Saturday morning. I've kind of been in shock and unable to muster up enough to type this post until now.

We have her body refrigerated at the moment in the hopes to get an autopsy done. Of course, with the weekend, snow storm, and a federal holiday, we're having to wait until tomorrow (Tuesday) for anywhere to be open.

I have concerns that it could be something contagious and would feel better if we're able to rule that out for the sake of our other snakes. And if I can learn whether or not a mistake was made I'd feel more confident so I won't repeat it.

We had only had her in our care for about a month, and in that time she revealed that she had mites as well as developed symptoms (constant urination) within 2 weeks. She was also very vocal as soon as we brought her home, but we had heard that bloods are louder in general so it didn't concern me. Now I'm starting to wonder if she had respiratory issues, she did a lot of huffing and her breathing was usually very audible.

In your experiences, is it a waste of money to get an autopsy done for a snake? I've been quoted anywhere from $100 - $300. I reached out to the breeder we got her from, asking if they would help cover some of the cost for the sake of their collection as well and in an effort to maintain civility. However it doesn't look like they are wanting to work on a solution with this, and they are quite defensive. I was already unhappy having been sold a snake with mites. Every time we went to pick up supplies etc from them they were always very specific about meeting us outside and not wanting us in the house as well (which I understand for quarantine procedures, but it was a little suspicious that we weren't allowed to see how she was kept at all). I most certainly won't be buying from them again, and if the autopsy was to come back showing it was something she had prior to our care, I'll likely be posting a beware about them.

Also forgot to address the theories about PAM and the soaks. I am not against the idea that a mistake could have been made somehow with these, which is why I'd appreciate an autopsy as well. But we only added 2-3 drops of Dawn at a time (for a huge snake in a good amount of water) and made sure it wasn't sudsy, just enough to break the surface tension. We also made sure the PAM was entirely dry and fumes dissipated before adding substrate (paper towels), water bowl then the snake. We also used a heat gun to dry the enclosure quicker as well as heat the enclosure to 150f to kill mite eggs. Then let the enclosure cool down to appropriate temps before adding her back in. I've never had an issue with PAM before but after this.. I'll likely switch to something else. We were going to try using frontline but didn't get the chance.

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Originally Posted by 55fingers

Thank you everyone for your kind words and advice. She unfortunately was gone by Saturday morning. I've kind of been in shock and unable to muster up enough to type this post until now.

We have her body refrigerated at the moment in the hopes to get an autopsy done. Of course, with the weekend, snow storm, and a federal holiday, we're having to wait until tomorrow (Tuesday) for anywhere to be open.

I have concerns that it could be something contagious and would feel better if we're able to rule that out for the sake of our other snakes. And if I can learn whether or not a mistake was made I'd feel more confident so I won't repeat it.

We had only had her in our care for about a month, and in that time she revealed that she had mites as well as developed symptoms (constant urination) within 2 weeks. She was also very vocal as soon as we brought her home, but we had heard that bloods are louder in general so it didn't concern me. Now I'm starting to wonder if she had respiratory issues, she did a lot of huffing and her breathing was usually very audible.

In your experiences, is it a waste of money to get an autopsy done for a snake? I've been quoted anywhere from $100 - $300. I reached out to the breeder we got her from, asking if they would help cover some of the cost for the sake of their collection as well and in an effort to maintain civility. However it doesn't look like they are wanting to work on a solution with this, and they are quite defensive. I was already unhappy having been sold a snake with mites. Every time we went to pick up supplies etc from them they were always very specific about meeting us outside and not wanting us in the house as well (which I understand for quarantine procedures, but it was a little suspicious that we weren't allowed to see how she was kept at all). I most certainly won't be buying from them again, and if the autopsy was to come back showing it was something she had prior to our care, I'll likely be posting a beware about them.

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I'm so sorry that she didn't make it. It wasn't looking good, but you never know. I was curious, but I didn't want to ask you about her condition because I guessed that you just weren't ready to talk about it...so sorry. :(

I commend you for wanting a necropsy done to get some answers, to learn from mistakes IF there were any but especially to protect your other snakes & to know more about the source of this poor snake. The mites were a big red flag. I'm really not surprised that they're not willing to share your cost. :rolleyes: (They could have shown you pictures without jeopardizing their quarantine. ;) )

From your other post, I really doubt that it was anything you did wrong. I hope you know that we were just trying to throw out some ideas as to possible reasons for the odd symptoms you were seeing & at the time, we had very limited information to go on. Again, sorry for your loss. I sure hope you get some answers.

That's a drag. I'm sorry for what happened.

I personally would absolutely have a necropsy done. It would be valuable education, and well worth the money spent to possibly have some answers that might ease your mind. I've had a couple necropsies done, and while none of them were completely clear as to what happened they gave enough info to allow for some general understandings as to whether a death was likely husbandry related, or whether suspected pathogens could be ruled out.

Make sure you're very up front about the entire history of the snake as you know it, and mention all the possible suspicions you have about contributing factors so they can specifically look at evidence of those causes. The more info you give, the more efficiently they're going to be able to confirm or rule out hypotheses.

Sorry for your loss. That really sucks.
I had a snake pass very suddenly as a new acquisition. Because of the number of reptiles I own I definitely did not hesitate on a necropsy and viral testing. At the very least it will give you peace of mind

Regarding the breeder, you can't post a beware on MorphMarket, but if she was purchased through the site I would consider contacting support regarding the situation. You probably won't get anything from it but knowing they'll get a ding on the record. The new management has been alright about taking questionable breeders off the site

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Originally Posted by 55fingers

In your experiences, is it a waste of money to get an autopsy done for a snake?

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No. Knowing whether or not the snake had something contagious is worth it, and if it did, you will have to take extra precautions to protect the rest of your collection. In a few cases it also let me know that there was nothing that I or the vet could have done to save the snakes, as they passed from cancer.

Having proof that the snake arrived sick (assuming that it did) is also vital for posting warnings about the seller.

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Originally Posted by Armiyana

Regarding the breeder, you can't post a beware on MorphMarket, but if she was purchased through the site I would consider contacting support regarding the situation. You probably won't get anything from it but knowing they'll get a ding on the record.

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If an animal was listed on MM and an inquiry was made there, then regardless of how one finalized the sale a seller review can be posted for that animal. If the sale went bad in any way, and it violated any off MM's rules (including selling unhealthy animals), and the seller didn't make it right, I would suspect that MM will help get the seller to make it right.

Yes, they've been good about keeping the place pretty clean, and I've noticed a few bad sellers have been removed in the last year or so.

In a previous thread, I believe the OP got the snake from an expo they attended, but that doesn't mean it wasn't also listed on MM, does it? But it may not have had anything to do with MM- we need more info.

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

If an animal was listed on MM and an inquiry was made there, then regardless of how one finalized the sale a seller review can be posted for that animal.

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Sorry I should have been more clear. I meant a buyer beware post on the community forum side of things.
Inquiry and ratings on the sales side are absolutely encouraged.

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Originally Posted by Armiyana

Sorry I should have been more clear. I meant a buyer beware post on the community forum side of things.
Inquiry and ratings on the sales side are absolutely encouraged.

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Ah, I understand. Sorry for my confusion. I don't participate in the community forum there, and didn't stop to consider what practices they have there. :)

Thank you all once again for your suggestions. We purchased her at an expo, but the sellers are on MM. Not sure if it will let me leave a review if I purchased her in person.

I got the necropsy done and just received the results. I mostly understand the findings (impaction and kidney issues, likely dehydration) but if any of you have ideas of what the cause could be with these findings in mind, I would welcome speculation.

The Doctor warned me beforehand that a histology would likely have to be preformed in order to properly determine anything. This would be an extra cost (I think another $100?) and I am looking for advice on whether or not it's a good idea. I'm leaning towards yes because at this point we've already gone this far and I would like to get closer to a solid answer. What do y'all think?

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...qg1c/image.png
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...q4rC/image.png

I would spend the extra on histology. It would be worth it just for the education, but consider the possibility of making a claim on the seller, and also the value of your other snakes if there is some pathogen at play that would be better to know about, even if only to know how to disinfect the QT setup. Sounds like there's a fair change there's some parasite/pathogen involved, based on the comments in the report.

I'm not sure which if any of those findings are consistent with permethrin exposure. That would be a great thing for your vet to run past a toxicologist (or I suppose the histopath would have a good idea).

'Moderately to severely decreased muscle and adipose tissue' doesn't happen fast in a big adult python. I would suspect that the snake was fighting with something for quite some time. I suppose it might have been kept in too-small caging, which would contribute some to poor body shape, though less in a blood than in a boa or similar.

Looking back through the threads, it seems the snake is seven years old, and a retired breeder, but hasn't had a clutch for 'several years'. Sounds like she had a clutch once and never again, since there's not really time on that calendar for more. That's a little suspicious, and not exactly what I'd call a 'retired breeder'.

As far as leaving a review on MM: I don't use MM, but it would seem to me that if this specific snake was listed on MM, as opposed to just the seller having a presence there but not listing this animal, I think that makes all the difference. And I'd be especially suspicious of this snake if she wasn't listed there- maybe they were just flipping her, or already knew something was amiss, which is my suspicion.

I'd go the extra mile for the histology too. Not surprising she was dehydrated, at the rate she kept losing fluid. So she was submitted frozen then, not just refrigerated?

I wonder what was causing the melena? :confusd:

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

...Looking back through the threads, it seems the snake is seven years old, and a retired breeder, but hasn't had a clutch for 'several years'. Sounds like she had a clutch once and never again, since there's not really time on that calendar for more. That's a little suspicious, and not exactly what I'd call a 'retired breeder'.

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More likely she wasn't a very successful breeder. :rolleyes:

You can leave a review on MM if you inquired through MM's messaging system about that specific animal, otherwise you can't even if you bought an animal that was listed.

I don't list some animals on MM that I have available. One reason for that it wouldn't be cost effective to ship them, which is probably the case here; SYR's biggest box from me to LA is $225. Other reasons are that the listings there for the species/morph are saturated and I don't want to give them away; they're low dollar animals that aren't worth the trouble to list and are easier to sell locally; they have a visual imperfection that doesn't make them less of a good pet but does prevent them from meeting MM's listing standards. I also don't list anything in the winter, because Wisconsin. :)

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

As far as leaving a review on MM: I don't use MM, but it would seem to me that if this specific snake was listed on MM, as opposed to just the seller having a presence there but not listing this animal, I think that makes all the difference. And I'd be especially suspicious of this snake if she wasn't listed there- maybe they were just flipping her, or already knew something was amiss, which is my suspicion.

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I don't doubt that could be what happened. She was one of 2 blood pythons at their stall of mostly boas. As far as I'm aware I don't think she was ever listed elsewhere. I think they had her for a few years, but told us the scars she had were from the previous owner feeding live. I'm not sure if it was them who bred her or the previous owners but we were told she was about 7 years old, used to be a breeder but now was retired.

Also just re-reading the report and realized that right before we brought her home, they sent us a pic of her being weighed. She was about 16lbs at the time of us bringing her home. This means she lost 3 lbs within the month we had her. That's a huge percentage of body weight to lose that quickly.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

So she was submitted frozen then, not just refrigerated?

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And unfortunately yes, we put her in the garage fridge, then within the next few nights (with the ongoing snowstorm) it reached as low as -30. Went to go check her the day before we brought her to the diagnostics center and realized she was frozen solid :( I know that's not ideal but we're having to work with what we have and hope the integrity of the tissues is enough to work with after freezing.

I called the center today and told them I would like to go ahead with further testing. At this point I feel it's best education-wise and for peace of mind.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 55fingers

Also just re-reading the report and realized that right before we brought her home, they sent us a pic of her being weighed. She was about 16lbs at the time of us bringing her home. This means she lost 3 lbs within the month we had her. That's a huge percentage of body weight to lose that quickly.

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Huh. I don't know there's any other way that can happen except severe dehydration. And even then I'm not sure. But there's no way that was just calories burned in excess of consumption. Maybe there's something to that excessive urination. Hopefully your vet can put all the pieces together once you have the most information you're able to get from the necropsy.